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I believe that we are speaking from within 2 separate paradigms. You obviously believe in time, and therefore have things strung out in sequence. I, on the other hand, only believe in the one moment, the one we are presently in, and everything else is a memory trace or a future imagining. What I call the Eternal Moment.
So that we could dance in circles with each other over this, but neither one of us is going to be convinced by the other to change. All REAL change comes through insight.
I do however believe that we must both remain ‘receptive’ to changes in what we think we already know. Truth isn’t a solid thing like a brick wall, built up brick by brick. That is more like accumulated knowledge, a mental wall. We build a wall like that, too thick, and too tall, and it can become our prison.
Insight travels into our hearts on the road of receptivity. If we get too full up, of what we think we know, there will be no room, after a while, for anything new, or improved, or more deeply understood.
M: I think no, I think he clearly studied all outside of mind. Why do I think this? Because the four noble truths and the three marks depicts a perfect system of reality that coheres with my experience and understanding of the world.
S9: The outside world is only a small portion of what Buddha spoke of. He also defined the mind and the self or no self, both very subjective. When you describe mind as he did, you have to wonder if the so-called world outside was also subjective, as we touch this world only through our minds.
M: By contemplation and mediating upon ideas and possibilities about reality, just as the Buddha must have to find what he found.
S9: See, the thing is that the mind and her products are already in question. 2ndly, we don’t actually know what the Buddha Realized, or we would also be Realized. All we know is that portion of what he said, which we believes makes some sense too us, now. But, let’s hope that will change into Realization.
So my friend, what portion, of what you believe that you know about this whole thing called dharma, do you doubt? Only the parts you don’t like, lets face it. ; ^ ) That is pretty much what we are doing, in some measure.
Is it that you only doubt what others believe? How does that keep ’YOU’ receptive?
S9:I believe that we are speaking from within 2 separate paradigms. You obviously believe in time, and therefore have things strung out in sequence. I, on the other hand, only believe in the one moment, the one we are presently in, and everything else is a memory trace or a future imagining. What I call the Eternal Moment.
M: Yes I belive in an external world to experiences. I think Buddhs did to. However, the only thing that is important fro Dharma Pratcice, I believe, is the empirical world.
S9:So that we could dance in circles with each other over this, but neither one of us is going to be convinced by the other to change.
M:I am not trying to convince you of anything:)
S9:I do however believe that we must both remain ‘receptive’ to changes in what we think we already know. Truth isn’t a solid thing like a brick wall, built up brick by brick.
M: Do you believe that all things are imperminant? To me that is not only a brick wall but a foundation of all realities. I cannot conceive of any possible world where this didn't hold.
S9: The outside world is only a small portion of what Buddha spoke of.
M: Maybe, maybe not. We cant say with any certainty:) Not that it matters.
S9:He also defined the mind and the self or no self, both very subjective.
M: I disagree, and this is a mistake I feel Buddhists may often make. He didn't define the mind as subjective but as aggregate., There is no subject, just illusuon of it. It is an aggregate of phenomenon in some external reality. This is what the suttras call "form" of the five aggrigates.
S9:So my friend, what portion, of what you believe that you know about this whole thing called dharma, do you doubt?
M: I doubt anything that is not connectible to the foundational Three Marks of Existence. If it cannot be shown to connect to them, then I will continue to doubt it. Rebirth being the prime example.
S9:Only the parts you don’t like, lets face it. ; ^ ) That is pretty much what we are doing, in some measure.
M: You may be, I dont think I am. I have doubted everything and seen what i cannot doubt. I cannot doubt the three marks and the four noble truths. i have tried, i am certain they are true.
Please don't try to accuse me of "cherry picky" as others have here, that shows you simply dont understand what I have been saying here and on salted.net:)
M:Is it that you only doubt what others believe? How does that keep ’YOU’ receptive?
I doubt everything. What Is written, what I believe, What others believe, my senses... what i experiences when I am chanting or meditating all of it. I believe this is the spirit and remnants of the Kalama Suttra:)
We also have the opportunity to turn away from buddhism as it is and replace it with reading blogs of random dudes on the internet (no offense to you Mat for all I know I am missing out on the 'truth')
We also have the opportunity to turn away from buddhism as it is and replace it with reading blogs of random dudes on the internet (no offense to you Mat for all I know I am missing out on the 'truth')
Hey Jeffry:)
Your 110% right. Why would anyone listen to a random dude on the internet and change their beliefs about something. That seems like a clear case of Wrong View to me and completely going against the Kalama Suttra whatver reading of it you care to take!:)
If the Buddha Had the internet I think under his teaching of Right View would be an entire section on internet forums and chat rooms.
We should never say to anyone "You should belive x." That is just dominating and ego based. I think at the most aggressive we should be to not get into a cycle of negative exchanges should be something like "I think you are wrong because..."
Incidentally I think this principle applies to all human relationships: Other peoples beliefs are not my concern. That is how I see it:)
There are only two things that can change peoples beliefs without conflict and they are evidence and experience. I imagine most of us here have a lot of evidence and experience supporting our various Dharmic beliefs. I don't believe in a super-natural foundation to Dharma, others do. So what? Its the same Dharma.
There is that passage in the suttras, I forget where, where a philosophical monk asks the buddha about the big questions, and the Buddha just silences him by highlighting the absurdity of his questions. I agree completely with that. The metahphysical questions about the underlaying foundation of reality, be it natural or supernatural or simulation can never be answered from within thsi world.
Science or religion cannot answer the meaningless question of being, nobody can. But what had happened in Buddhism, I believe, is that the spirit of this passage has been distorted top mean all philosophical questions, not just the meaningless one about "what contains and commended reality".
I deeply and genuinely think that there is much more room for traditional philosophy in Buddhism. I think the ahhibdharma is not a great philsophical work, at all. I have tried to understand it, but it just seems untenable as a doctrine I could possibly believe. Yet if you try to do Buddhist philosophy you are always shunted into Ahindharma. Its like a blanket that smothers what I consider to be analytic philosophy.
People who who say the Buddha wasn't an analytic philosopher should simply look at the four noble truths to see that he must have been:)
S9: Although we don’t believe that there is an ego-self, every single day we live like there is an ego self, don’t we?
Restated: Sometimes things are only ½ true, (we know there is more to it, but so far we cannot say what that is; maybe its too complex?), or we have no idea at/all what they actually mean or why. But because they are useful within a particular context, we apply them anyway, or use them to bring about something we need brought about.
In medicine, for instance, at least ½ of the diseases have no cure and we can only guess at the reasons why they exist at/all (etiology unknown; of unknown origin, was common in my medical books in school.) Yet, we have been very successful in relieving pain and treating symptoms, which is of course a ½ measure. No one would consider this ½ measure of pain relief other than a blessing. So, it is a convenient truth and yet not really an Ultimate Truth. At least, that is my take on it.
In Buddhism there are a lot of truths that grow not so much in quantity, but rather in depth. You may see something one way, and because of an insight or clarity of some kind, see it completely differently the day after that. This isn’t so much because what you first thought was wrong, but more because you are seeing it more deeply as time goes on.
So you have the ego self which is only a convenience truth, useful within the context of living here on earth, not so much wrong, but certainly not the Ultimate Truth either. We use the ego in social situations much like you use a coat when it is cold out. See what I mean?
In Buddhism there are a lot of truths that grow not so much in quantity, but rather in depth.
I agree
One may have a really comprehensive structural understanding of the Dharmic Truths from their first day in Buddhism. But There are many ways to realise these truths that only other understandings and, of course, experience and insight can show.
M: Yes I believe in an external world to experiences. I think Buddha did to. However, the only thing that is important fro Dharma Practice, I believe, is the empirical world.
S9: You say you doubt things until they can prove themselves true beyond any doubt, and yet you make quite a few assumptions, IMPO. For instance, how do you know this world, and you, and Dharma Practice (for that matter) aren’t simply a dream? Wouldn’t our senses be dream senses in that case? Are you a true Philosophical Skeptic?
M: Do you believe that all things are impermanent?
S9: Yes, all finite things are impermanent, from what I have witnessed, as they are constantly becoming, or changing and transmuting, and disappearing again.
M: To me that is not only a brick wall, but a foundation of all realities. I cannot conceive of any possible world where this didn't hold.
S9: A foundation built too tall IS a wall. ; ^ )
I think you are right about worlds. But just what if Ultimate Truth isn’t necessarily just one more world? (same/same) Perhaps, there is Reality beyond mind’s constructs and her many worlds.
Do you know the story of the little frog in the well, which he had always called home, who couldn’t even imagine anything beyond the walls of that particular well? : ^ )
RE: S9: The outside world is only a small portion of what Buddha spoke of.
M: Maybe, maybe not. We can’t say with any certainty. Not that it matters.
S9: Don’t close yourself off to ALL possibility. There are many sages who speak about things that we, ourselves, haven't personally witnessed, YET. These sages are like the indian guides going out beyond the wagon trains of old, and coming back with information about the terrain up ahead.
Yes, don’t swallow anything whole, but don’t close off to it either…this is receptivity in a nutshell.
Q: "There is no large obstruction to Truth, than what we think we already know."
RE: S9: He also defined the mind and the self or no self, both very subjective.
M: I disagree, and this is a mistake.
S9: How do you define subjectivity? Isn’t it our inner world?
M: He didn't define the mind as subjective but as aggregate.
S9: Some of these aggregates are subjective, like how we personally deal with sensation, or mental formations, of our personal thought process. Are they not? Subjectivity is a process. An actual subjective self is a whole other subject.
M: You may be, I don’t think I am.
S9: I think you need to look a little closer. Most of what we believe has no foundation outside of useful context and personal appeal. When we finally see into Nirvana, this whole story world melts before our eyes. Absolutely everything that hasn’t yet melted, simply fits some personal need that you are still holding on to…grasping, (AKA an attachment).
M: I doubt everything.
S9: No you don’t. You don’t doubt the capacity of your own intellect.
If Ultimate Truth is outside of intellection, than intellect too can become a barrior, or an obstacle, especially if we hold it to our heart, and call it “me,” (AKA Wrongful Identification).
S9: You say you doubt things until they can prove themselves true beyond any doubt, and yet you make quite a few assumptions, IMPO.
M: No. I say I doubut everything and start from nothing to see what i cannot doubt.
S:For instance, how do you know this world, and you, and Dharma Practice (for that matter) aren’t simply a dream?
M: I absoluty dont know that. However in all dream works and all nightmare worlds, and crazy worlds and possible worlds it is true that all contingent things will be impermanent, connected and empty. I dont care if this is a dream or not, its all there is and i can never know. What is important to me is how I live my life and try to better understand dharma.
S9:Are you a true Philosophical Skeptic?
M: I realy dont care for labels. once you label something you confine it:) I am utterly skeptical, as I belive, may well be the Kalama Sutra and was Buddha.
S9: Yes, all finite things are impermanent, from what I have witnessed, as they are constantly becoming, or changing and transmuting, and disappearing again.
M: Think about a single point. Then two points. then three. Think what truths are true of those points. You will see dharma in that, too. its everywhere, not just human experinces. (Lost on salted.net on this)
S9:I think you are right about worlds. But just what if Ultimate Truth isn’t necessarily just one more world? (same/same)
M: See I dont know what you mean here. I am with the Buddha and the idea that that kind of talk isnt useful. it wont ever lead there. A universe is something connected and limited by the same laws, I belive, but that is about all I can speak of it externally:)
S9: Do you know the story of the little frog in the well, which he had always called home, who couldn’t even imagine anything beyond the walls of that particular well? : ^ )
M3: Sure sure, I 100% agree with that. In the frog in the well or Flatlander or whatever sense, I cannot imagine alternate realities. But perhaps that is because my imagination is limited by my reality so I cannot imagine outside of that. In the same way I cant imagine what came before this universe, I cant imagine, outside of this universe in time, either. BUT and this is the biggest BUTT in Buddhism IMHO, But, I cannot imagine any world that isn't a Dharmic world. Why an earth could any Buddhist find this fact, which all are entitled to really try hard to disprove, not a positive thing for Buddhism?
S9: Don’t close yourself off to ALL possibility.
M: Please dont assume:) I have tried very hard to open myself up to the possibility of Buddhism, spiritually desperate to that rebirth was consistent and probable. I have grappled with all kinds of possibility trying to reconsile these beliefs, I don't think it can be done. this isn't for lack of my trying:) The "Rebirth and the Simulated Buddha" essay on salted.net has my ideas on this issue:) You have said you wont read, no problem, I just want you to know Its not idle fancy:)
s9:There are many sages who speak about things that we, ourselves, haven't personally witnessed, YET. These sages are like the indian guides going out beyond the wagon trains of old, and coming back with information about the terrain up ahead.
M: I do not follow the teachings of sages but of the Buddha:p And even these I try hard to doubt:)
S9: How do you define subjectivity? Isn’t it our inner world?
M: I think it is the world of a single unified experience, be it an attempt to represent an external world or a pure illusions, is a subjective experience. It is nothing but a single experience.
S9: I think you need to look a little closer.
M: Please can you try not to use "i think you need/should/want..."opinions. I am not interested your opinion on me and what you think I should think:) I will not give you my opinion on what I think you should do think etc.
S9:When we finally see into Nirvana, this whole story world melts before our eyes.
M:How do you know that? Why should I not think that is just wishful thinking?
S9: You don’t doubt the capacity of your own intellect.
M: Can you please not state you opinion on what my doubts and opinions are unless I have told you it, because that is the only way you could resonably find out what someones opinion is:) I completely doubt my own intellect. I do not doubt Dharma, because when I try, I cannot:)
Subjectivity9, I see, interesting
The frog story is interesting. What I never get is what's outside the universe and it can't just never end but if it stops what's outside the end. The beginning? But what's outside the wheel? That's why I realise that maybe the universe doesn't have to make sence or have an explanation. It's life and by God we should be using it to live not think about questions that will probobly never have an answer. That frog may have been ignorant of the outside world but if he can't get out than he might as well enjoy his life in the well, not fret about what's outside or by trying to find an answer his life's slipped through his webbed fingers before he even realises.
Love & Peace
Joe
I imagine it as a mental hospital with all my crazy little thoughts. Some I lock down and never like to think of when I do nasty things and my mind makes up nasty things. Then just everyday thoughts that drift around and then happy thoughts which I try to stay up all the time. Honestly LOL. I don't know where it ends. That's interesting though, I'll try it. I have a busy mind and it's sort of just like a little hum of dozens of thoughts rushing around my head, except in meditation, then I feel calm. I do it before bed to help me sleep easier, with a calmer mind I'm not fully normal but I'm not see-a-doctor unnormal just a bit odd LOL.
Love & Peace
Joe
The thing is that you don’t need to see what is outside of the universe. Truth is all about where you are, right here and now, only seen with “New Eyes.”
I always see meditation as a form of deprograming our organic computer, which we lovingly call ‘MY brain,’ or if we think we are our thoughts, we call it ‘My self.’ Looking at our thoughts, is a distancing from these thoughts which meditation supplies to us. We re-see or clarify old thinking habits that up until that moment we had simply taken for granted. Monkey mind was too scattered to do this weeding b/4.
All of the 'Ultimate Answers' that you will ever find, will be found right here in this very moment, as we never actually live outside of the Immediate Moment. If you deal with the past, you are actually dealing with it in the now. This is also true of any future that we can dream up. Now is the only place where you can do anything, about anything at/all, isn’t it?
Mind is a little animal that really loves an explanation. So why be a big meany, and take away its fun? But, in over view we also begin to realize that many things are beyond our minds capacity to understand or control.
Life is very cyclic, (the wheel), and we simply do things again and again because it is called for again and again. Very little is one time only, or even “once and for all.” We eat just to be hungry again, we sleep simply to grow tired once again, and the mind wonders about things, because that is the mind's food, and grows hungry for answers...again. We accept these things (if we are wise), simply because they are out of our hands, and really a rather harmless little dance.
BTW, I was glad to see that you could laugh at yourself, in a reply to someone else. That is a great tool for distancing. One that some people never learn.
I imagine it as a mental hospital with all my crazy little thoughts. Some I lock down and never like to think of when I do nasty things and my mind makes up nasty things. Then just everyday thoughts that drift around and then happy thoughts which I try to stay up all the time. Honestly LOL. I don't know where it ends. That's interesting though, I'll try it. I have a busy mind and it's sort of just like a little hum of dozens of thoughts rushing around my head, except in meditation, then I feel calm. I do it before bed to help me sleep easier, with a calmer mind I'm not fully normal but I'm not see-a-doctor unnormal just a bit odd LOL.
Love & Peace
Joe
Actually I wasn't talking about your thoughts. Thoughts are like the ripples on a pond. A deep, deep pond. Try looking at your mind that way. See if you can find any limits to it.
M: No. I say I doubt everything and start from nothing to see what I cannot doubt.
S9: How exactly did you get to this place of nothing, where you could begin to doubt everything? Didn’t you still believe there was something capable of doubting in that place? Didn’t you believe that there was something that could know the difference between what could be doubted and what could not be doubted AND wasn’t that thing using discrimination, actually your mind? Sounds a bit like Descartes whittling down to the thinking instrument, doesn’t it?
M: I don’t care if this is a dream or not, its all there is and I can never know.
S9: Ah, don’t give up so easily. ; ^ ) You must admit that dreams come very close to being like emptiness taking form and then ‘POOF’ gone again.
M: What is important to me is how I live my life and try to better understand dharma.
Q: wiki: Dhamma (Pāli: धम्म) or Dharma (Sanskrit: धर्म) in Buddhism has two primary meanings:
The teachings of the Buddha, which lead to enlightenment (The Universal law of nature)
the constituent factors of the experienced world (The characteristic of elements)
S9: My question to you is, if Dharma characteristics are that of a dream, (as in Buddha Woke Up) and you rule this out as impossible to understand, how than can you turn around and understand it?
RE: S9:
Are you a true Philosophical Skeptic?
M: I really don’t care for labels.
S9: Ah, but you labeled yourself as a philosopher. Can’t play both ends and the middle.
And:
Skeptics are the doubters par excellence in the philosophy world, are they not?
; ^ )
M: I cannot imagine alternate realities.
S9: But, Buddha nature isn’t an alternate reality. It is an alternate perspective of this present reality, is it not?
M: I cannot imagine any world that isn't a Dharmic world. Why on earth could any Buddhist find this fact, which all are entitled to really try hard to disprove, not a positive thing for Buddhism?
S9: I don’t think anyone does. Why do you ask this?
M: Please don’t assume I have tried very hard to open myself up to the possibility of Buddhism; spiritually desperate to that rebirth was consistent and probable. I have grappled with all kinds of possibility trying to reconcile these beliefs; I don't think it can be done. This isn't for lack of my trying.
S9: I don’t doubt your sincere trying, by any means. But, we must persist until we are “Awake” like the Buddha and not start, short of that mark, declaring things to be impossible. Don’t you mean, “So Far, I find it to be impossible?”
S9: How do you define subjectivity? Isn’t it our inner world?
M: I think it is the world of a single unified experience, be it an attempt to represent an external world, or pure illusions, is a subjective experience. It is nothing but a single experience.
S9: Of course the world is a single unified experience. But wasn’t it you that claimed there was an external world quite frequently. Dualistic language is just a convenient way of studying details,
M: Please can you try not to use "I think you need/should/want..."opinions? I am not interested your opinion on me and what you think I should think I will not give you my opinion on what I think you should do think etc.
S9: I think you need to look a little closer is just a nice way of saying I think you are wrong, nothing more. You say that constantly to others.
Re: S9: When we finally see into Nirvana, this whole story world melts before our eyes.
M: How do you know that?
S9: I have experienced such insights directly.
M: Why should I not think that is just wishful thinking?
S9: Because what I previously had thought and wished for, turn out to be incorrect. Very often these insights are not what we expect.
M: Can you please not state you opinion on what my doubts and opinions are unless I have told you it, because that is the only way you could reasonably find out what someone’s opinion is.
S9: Come on Mat, everyone knows it is my opinion and not the actual fact, but rather what I am picking up from your words. The second you open up your mouth to speak, someone is going to judge your words. If you can’t stand the heat, hide your writings in a locked draw. : ^ (
S9: How exactly did you get to this place of nothing, where you could begin to doubt everything?
M: If you become interested enough, its on salted.net, the game universes series.
S9:Didn’t you still believe there was something capable of doubting in that place?
M: I think you are confusing boundaries and it makes problems. This was not some deep excersise or descent past the stream stepping etc. Its a simple process of acting what things can be said of a 1,2,3,4 etc point static or dynamic universes. Try this yourself. If you keep thing consistent you will, I belive, end up at the Dharmic truths and these truths, from these first principles lead deeply into human experince and suffering:)
There is no mystery to me about this, or need for metaphore or assumption. Again, see salted.net if This intererests you:)
S9:Didn’t you believe that there was something that could know the difference between what could be doubted and what could not be doubted AND wasn’t that thing using discrimination, actually your mind?
M: "There is no thinker, only thoughts:)"
S9:Sounds a bit like Descartes whittling down to the thinking instrument, doesn’t it?
M: I have thought about this lots, it strikes me that its not the same as cogito ergo sum but equally its not in conflict with the cogito.
Consider:
Descartes: I think there for I am.
Buddha: I am only these thoughts (There is no thinker, only thought.)
I certainly don't have the answer to those two's relationship:)
S9: Ah, don’t give up so easily. ; ^ )
M: I consider 8 years of my life long enough:) The only way I could not give up on these esoteric aspects is if they could be shown to me in clear reason, not just as an experience during meditation.
S9: My question to you is, if Dharma characteristics are that of a dream, (as in Buddha Woke Up) and you rule this out as impossible to understand, how than can you turn around and understand it?
M: As said many times, because I believe Dharma is true of all logically possible finite universes with change, including dreams:)
S9:Are you a true Philosophical Skeptic?
M: I really don’t care for labels.
S9: Ah, but you labeled yourself as a philosopher. Can’t play both ends and the middle.
M: Oh please, can this chat not be about me or you but just the statements and truths we think are Dharma. Its just fruitless to quibble over such things as if anyone is a philosopher or a thervadan etc. Its just distracting and pointless:)
I just want to focus on the issues of Dharma, not the issues of Buddhists:)
Thanks
Mat
And:
Skeptics are the doubters par excellence in the philosophy world, are they not?
; ^ )
M: I cannot imagine alternate realities.
S9: But, Buddha nature isn’t an alternate reality. It is an alternate perspective of this present reality, is it not?
M: I cannot imagine any world that isn't a Dharmic world. Why on earth could any Buddhist find this fact, which all are entitled to really try hard to disprove, not a positive thing for Buddhism?
S9: I don’t think anyone does. Why do you ask this?
M: Please don’t assume I have tried very hard to open myself up to the possibility of Buddhism; spiritually desperate to that rebirth was consistent and probable. I have grappled with all kinds of possibility trying to reconcile these beliefs; I don't think it can be done. This isn't for lack of my trying.
S9: I don’t doubt your sincere trying, by any means. But, we must persist until we are “Awake” like the Buddha and not start, short of that mark, declaring things to be impossible. Don’t you mean, “So Far, I find it to be impossible?”
S9: How do you define subjectivity? Isn’t it our inner world?
M: I think it is the world of a single unified experience, be it an attempt to represent an external world, or pure illusions, is a subjective experience. It is nothing but a single experience.
S9: Of course the world is a single unified experience. But wasn’t it you that claimed there was an external world quite frequently. Dualistic language is just a convenient way of studying details,
M: Please can you try not to use "I think you need/should/want..."opinions? I am not interested your opinion on me and what you think I should think I will not give you my opinion on what I think you should do think etc.
S9: I think you need to look a little closer is just a nice way of saying I think you are wrong, nothing more. You say that constantly to others.
Re: S9: When we finally see into Nirvana, this whole story world melts before our eyes.
M: How do you know that?
S9: I have experienced such insights directly.
M: Why should I not think that is just wishful thinking?
S9: Because what I previously had thought and wished for, turn out to be incorrect. Very often these insights are not what we expect.
M: Can you please not state you opinion on what my doubts and opinions are unless I have told you it, because that is the only way you could reasonably find out what someone’s opinion is.
S9: Come on Mat, everyone knows it is my opinion and not the actual fact, but rather what I am picking up from your words. The second you open up your mouth to speak, someone is going to judge your words. If you can’t stand the heat, hide your writings in a locked draw. : ^ (
Sometimes it is hard to tell the difference between arguing and debating, when the feathers start to fly. But I was not angry, only interested in studying the details, can't speak for Mat. But I imagine aside from his being a bit defensive, and my faults, which I am blind to, he hopefully felt the same way. I consider him an e-friend. It’s a philosophical thing to debat with passion. ; ^ )
AND:
Your welcome, probably worth every penny I charged you to say my advise.
However:
You deserved that compliment. It is not that common a capacity, to be able to laugh at yourself, as you might think. : ^ )
Sometimes it is hard to tell the difference between arguing and debating, when the feathers start to fly. But I was not angry, only interested in studying the details, can't speak for Mat. But I imagine aside from his being a bit defensive, and my faults, which I am blind to, he hopefully felt the same way. I consider him an e-friend. It’s a philosophical thing to debat with passion. ; ^ )
Oh gosh absolutely!:) Some debates on here have made me annoyed, I am ashamed to say, but I hope I have learned from them, both about Dharma and my own faults in debating!:)
I really enjoyed our chat and didn't think it negative at all. I hope there are more constructive opposed debates on here and I hope those that don't want to debate Dharmic philosophy focus on the other interesting chats on this forum:)
I guess if I didn't laugh at myself I'd be insanely depressed LOL! I'm hanging over the see of depression even now but I scraping my way back up ze cliff
The thing I absalutely love about my father is our converstations. He's a homophobic racist sexist religion-hater. I'm a people loving religion studying equal rights maniac. And I get annoyed as hell but I LOVE a debate
Love, Metaphors, Debates, and Peace
Joe:)
I guess if I didn't laugh at myself I'd be insanely depressed LOL! I'm hanging over the see of depression even now but I scraping my way back up ze cliff
The thing I absalutely love about my father is our converstations. He's a homophobic racist sexist religion-hater. I'm a people loving religion studying equal rights maniac. And I get annoyed as hell but I LOVE a debate
Love, Metaphors, Debates, and Peace
Joe:)
All systems will tend towards suffering.
This suffering has causes, that is craving and delusion.
If the causes can be eradicated the suffering will cease
The Noble Eighfold Path can eradicate the causes of suffering.
I don't even want to know what he'd say if I said that to him. I don't want to slab the 4NT in his face but I don't see why he's got a problem with perfectly good people just existing :-/
Love & Peace
Joe
I don't even want to know what he'd say if I said that to him. I don't want to slab the 4NT in his face but I don't see why he's got a problem with perfectly good people just existing :-/
Love & Peace
Joe
He clearly has a problem:) I guess the Dharnic approach woulkld be to help him find out what that problem was and help him find how he can at least keep it out of your life:) IMHO
Your father is obviously a very frightened person. No one judges whole groups of people harshly without meeting them individually, unless they have personal issues of their own. That type of thinking only creates many enemies in your mind and frightens you even further.
Although what I am about to say to you will seem counter-intuitive, please listen and think on it. : ^ )
What you are going to have to do is forgive him. Not because he necessarily deserves it. That’s not important right now. You are going to forgive him, because you deserve it. If you don’t, you will carry him like a heavy weight in your heart for your whole life.
Right now you are angry, that is the root of depression. We pick up anger wrongfully because we feel it will protect us, but it doesn’t. It is a toxin that can only cause a sickness of the heart. Depression is anger held in and directed back at our selves.
Look at your dad, not like a grown up person, just for a little while, but like a young child. Notice how frightened he is, so you can feel sorry for him. This will change him before your eyes eventually into someone who needs help and didn’t get it. His faults are a sickness, and not who he is. We are all suffering from the thought sickness. Just some more than others it seems.
Don’t try to change your situation, just see it very clearly. You will be surprised how much you will grow as a person.
Deep down inside, everyone is afraid they are like their parents and have to fright this idea with anger at them. You are your own person, we all are. I can see a lot of good in your gentle self. To be like him you would have to change drastically, and that seems impossible to me.
I learned somewhere that the greatest (most powerful) gift of love we can give another is to simply listen, with open hearts and minds, without judging or questioning in any way - no arguing
Imagine having the privilege of being with a loved one, like a father, as they take their last breath. What would you want to share with them in those last moments of life? A hug? A gentle kiss? An argument?
I also imagine parents as really only wanting to see their children safe and happy. Could this perhaps lead to some fear? (This may include old "Buddist-ish" folks, by the way)
I also learned a trick to use when approaching an "authority figure" with a potentially divisive subject. What I was taught was to simply ask them for their advice and recommendations on the subject, listen to them very carefully (as above - with loving intentions) and thank them without voicing disagreement, even if I felt it. If they request some response, I simply tell them I have to think about what they said - and I really do pay attention, in case they ask me to identify some specific aspect of what they said as worthy of thinking about - gotta be really attentive and not just blowing them off!
This approach tends to assure the other that I appreciate them and their advice and allows them to reciprocate in kind and allow me to state my point of view without judgment - sometimes.
It may not satisfy my desire to prove an arguable point but it does nurture a kind of friendly respect between us, which may lead to the other acknowledging the correctness of a point of view as I prove it in my way of living, each moment.
I think, if we just stick to the path and really love each other wholeheartedly, we'll make it!!!
Palzang,
Some adopted children are angry when they discover their parents are not their blood-parents. The thing is although I'd feel about about my parents not wanting you look on the bright. Your mum might have been a teenager and she could have just had an abortion but she didn't. She could have wanted what was best for you. Then there was your adoptive parents, you may not be there's but they chose you to look after and care for out of millions of orphans in the world...
Bob and S9,
Great advise thanks The thing is he in a way only jokes about it in a way, not a serious way. I have nothing against him though. For example he doesn't exactly speak with disgust of homosexuality because I was holding my baby cousin and I said 'I cant wait to be a father when I'm older' and then my dad said 'that'll be a while; you've got to meet you boyfriend and adopt first' hahaha very funny. There's a gay couple not far from where I live and as my dad walked past there house he said they through good partys (eg rich). I said are they your friends? Aquaintences aparently. Then I said 'you mean friends but you're to, em, whatever, to admit it.'
'Sort of.' Really I don't know why he's homophobic, I think he isn't but he sort of wants to be. He's really racist though, I mean he HATES foreign people to a creepy extent... Anyway I should try and understand his point of view but morraly I think he's wrong, and I have no intention on changing my views just because;
'Those people from pakistan are coming over hear (not like you'd want the best for your family dad)' or 'trying to turn us Islamic' (not like Christians didn't beat them to it and I think you forgot the part that you don't even like Christianity.)
Honestly I just see him as, confused and scared as you put it :-/
Love & Peace
Joe
Palzang,
Some adopted children are angry when they discover their parents are not their blood-parents. The thing is although I'd feel about about my parents not wanting you look on the bright. Your mum might have been a teenager and she could have just had an abortion but she didn't. She could have wanted what was best for you. Then there was your adoptive parents, you may not be there's but they chose you to look after and care for out of millions of orphans in the world...
Sorry, Joe, I'm having a hard time figuring out what you're trying to say here. Could you restate it? Sorry...
Perhaps, like all of us your dad has mixed feelings about how he feels about minority groups. Some people are so afraid of feeling like an ‘outsider,’ (AKA not belonging), or of not being [quotes] normal, that they compensate by pick up what they feel are the average opinions of their times, or their culture. Yet, in their 'heart of hearts,' they don’t really feel that strongly about it, and so are somewhat astranged from themselves.
In other words, they have 2 selves: their make believe self [AKA neurosis], and they real self at war within. So that their thought patterns come out a real mish/moch of incompatible feelings, which must feel pretty confusing at times. No wonder they feel off balance.
It does sound to me, though, like you are already trying to forgive him.
This is a very important step. As later on you will have to forgive yourself for not being perfect, and you will have had some practice in that area. ; ^ )
Thanks S9, that's made me feel a lot better
Palzang, I was saying if you're adopted to look on the bright side basically, in responce to the half-joking pychiatrist...
It does sound to me, though, like you are already trying to forgive him.
This is a very important step. As later on you will have to forgive yourself for not being perfect, and you will have had some practice in that area. ; ^ )
Perfect advice S9. If you can love him, you can love you.
Good luck Joe. It sounds like you are making some real headway.
Comments
I believe that we are speaking from within 2 separate paradigms. You obviously believe in time, and therefore have things strung out in sequence. I, on the other hand, only believe in the one moment, the one we are presently in, and everything else is a memory trace or a future imagining. What I call the Eternal Moment.
So that we could dance in circles with each other over this, but neither one of us is going to be convinced by the other to change. All REAL change comes through insight.
I do however believe that we must both remain ‘receptive’ to changes in what we think we already know. Truth isn’t a solid thing like a brick wall, built up brick by brick. That is more like accumulated knowledge, a mental wall. We build a wall like that, too thick, and too tall, and it can become our prison.
Insight travels into our hearts on the road of receptivity. If we get too full up, of what we think we know, there will be no room, after a while, for anything new, or improved, or more deeply understood.
M: I think no, I think he clearly studied all outside of mind. Why do I think this? Because the four noble truths and the three marks depicts a perfect system of reality that coheres with my experience and understanding of the world.
S9: The outside world is only a small portion of what Buddha spoke of. He also defined the mind and the self or no self, both very subjective. When you describe mind as he did, you have to wonder if the so-called world outside was also subjective, as we touch this world only through our minds.
M: By contemplation and mediating upon ideas and possibilities about reality, just as the Buddha must have to find what he found.
S9: See, the thing is that the mind and her products are already in question. 2ndly, we don’t actually know what the Buddha Realized, or we would also be Realized. All we know is that portion of what he said, which we believes makes some sense too us, now. But, let’s hope that will change into Realization.
So my friend, what portion, of what you believe that you know about this whole thing called dharma, do you doubt? Only the parts you don’t like, lets face it. ; ^ ) That is pretty much what we are doing, in some measure.
Is it that you only doubt what others believe? How does that keep ’YOU’ receptive?
Respectfully,
S9
S9:I believe that we are speaking from within 2 separate paradigms. You obviously believe in time, and therefore have things strung out in sequence. I, on the other hand, only believe in the one moment, the one we are presently in, and everything else is a memory trace or a future imagining. What I call the Eternal Moment.
M: Yes I belive in an external world to experiences. I think Buddhs did to. However, the only thing that is important fro Dharma Pratcice, I believe, is the empirical world.
S9:So that we could dance in circles with each other over this, but neither one of us is going to be convinced by the other to change.
M:I am not trying to convince you of anything:)
S9:I do however believe that we must both remain ‘receptive’ to changes in what we think we already know. Truth isn’t a solid thing like a brick wall, built up brick by brick.
M: Do you believe that all things are imperminant? To me that is not only a brick wall but a foundation of all realities. I cannot conceive of any possible world where this didn't hold.
S9: The outside world is only a small portion of what Buddha spoke of.
M: Maybe, maybe not. We cant say with any certainty:) Not that it matters.
S9:He also defined the mind and the self or no self, both very subjective.
M: I disagree, and this is a mistake I feel Buddhists may often make. He didn't define the mind as subjective but as aggregate., There is no subject, just illusuon of it. It is an aggregate of phenomenon in some external reality. This is what the suttras call "form" of the five aggrigates.
S9:So my friend, what portion, of what you believe that you know about this whole thing called dharma, do you doubt?
M: I doubt anything that is not connectible to the foundational Three Marks of Existence. If it cannot be shown to connect to them, then I will continue to doubt it. Rebirth being the prime example.
S9:Only the parts you don’t like, lets face it. ; ^ ) That is pretty much what we are doing, in some measure.
M: You may be, I dont think I am. I have doubted everything and seen what i cannot doubt. I cannot doubt the three marks and the four noble truths. i have tried, i am certain they are true.
Please don't try to accuse me of "cherry picky" as others have here, that shows you simply dont understand what I have been saying here and on salted.net:)
M:Is it that you only doubt what others believe? How does that keep ’YOU’ receptive?
I doubt everything. What Is written, what I believe, What others believe, my senses... what i experiences when I am chanting or meditating all of it. I believe this is the spirit and remnants of the Kalama Suttra:)
Thanks:)
Mat
You can't choose what you believe in for the conveniance, you choose it because it's what you believe
Love & Peace
Joe
I choose it because I cant not choose it:)
As I think The Buddha Instructs:)
I may be wrong on that, but that's my error, not yours:)
Salome!
Mat
We also have the opportunity to turn away from buddhism as it is and replace it with reading blogs of random dudes on the internet (no offense to you Mat for all I know I am missing out on the 'truth')
J: You can't choose what you believe in for the convenience, you choose it because it's what you believe.
S9: Although we don’t believe that there is an ego-self, every single day we live like there is an ego self, don’t we?
Warm regards,
S9
Hey Jeffry:)
Your 110% right. Why would anyone listen to a random dude on the internet and change their beliefs about something. That seems like a clear case of Wrong View to me and completely going against the Kalama Suttra whatver reading of it you care to take!:)
If the Buddha Had the internet I think under his teaching of Right View would be an entire section on internet forums and chat rooms.
We should never say to anyone "You should belive x." That is just dominating and ego based. I think at the most aggressive we should be to not get into a cycle of negative exchanges should be something like "I think you are wrong because..."
Incidentally I think this principle applies to all human relationships: Other peoples beliefs are not my concern. That is how I see it:)
There are only two things that can change peoples beliefs without conflict and they are evidence and experience. I imagine most of us here have a lot of evidence and experience supporting our various Dharmic beliefs. I don't believe in a super-natural foundation to Dharma, others do. So what? Its the same Dharma.
There is that passage in the suttras, I forget where, where a philosophical monk asks the buddha about the big questions, and the Buddha just silences him by highlighting the absurdity of his questions. I agree completely with that. The metahphysical questions about the underlaying foundation of reality, be it natural or supernatural or simulation can never be answered from within thsi world.
Science or religion cannot answer the meaningless question of being, nobody can. But what had happened in Buddhism, I believe, is that the spirit of this passage has been distorted top mean all philosophical questions, not just the meaningless one about "what contains and commended reality".
I deeply and genuinely think that there is much more room for traditional philosophy in Buddhism. I think the ahhibdharma is not a great philsophical work, at all. I have tried to understand it, but it just seems untenable as a doctrine I could possibly believe. Yet if you try to do Buddhist philosophy you are always shunted into Ahindharma. Its like a blanket that smothers what I consider to be analytic philosophy.
People who who say the Buddha wasn't an analytic philosopher should simply look at the four noble truths to see that he must have been:)
I have digressed, but there you go:)
Mat
Please can you dumb it down a bit, I can't understand, sorry:o
Love & Peace
Joe
S9: Although we don’t believe that there is an ego-self, every single day we live like there is an ego self, don’t we?
Restated: Sometimes things are only ½ true, (we know there is more to it, but so far we cannot say what that is; maybe its too complex?), or we have no idea at/all what they actually mean or why. But because they are useful within a particular context, we apply them anyway, or use them to bring about something we need brought about.
In medicine, for instance, at least ½ of the diseases have no cure and we can only guess at the reasons why they exist at/all (etiology unknown; of unknown origin, was common in my medical books in school.) Yet, we have been very successful in relieving pain and treating symptoms, which is of course a ½ measure. No one would consider this ½ measure of pain relief other than a blessing. So, it is a convenient truth and yet not really an Ultimate Truth. At least, that is my take on it.
In Buddhism there are a lot of truths that grow not so much in quantity, but rather in depth. You may see something one way, and because of an insight or clarity of some kind, see it completely differently the day after that. This isn’t so much because what you first thought was wrong, but more because you are seeing it more deeply as time goes on.
So you have the ego self which is only a convenience truth, useful within the context of living here on earth, not so much wrong, but certainly not the Ultimate Truth either. We use the ego in social situations much like you use a coat when it is cold out. See what I mean?
What do you think?
Warm regards,
S9
I agree
One may have a really comprehensive structural understanding of the Dharmic Truths from their first day in Buddhism. But There are many ways to realise these truths that only other understandings and, of course, experience and insight can show.
mat
M: Yes I believe in an external world to experiences. I think Buddha did to. However, the only thing that is important fro Dharma Practice, I believe, is the empirical world.
S9: You say you doubt things until they can prove themselves true beyond any doubt, and yet you make quite a few assumptions, IMPO. For instance, how do you know this world, and you, and Dharma Practice (for that matter) aren’t simply a dream? Wouldn’t our senses be dream senses in that case? Are you a true Philosophical Skeptic?
M: Do you believe that all things are impermanent?
S9: Yes, all finite things are impermanent, from what I have witnessed, as they are constantly becoming, or changing and transmuting, and disappearing again.
M: To me that is not only a brick wall, but a foundation of all realities. I cannot conceive of any possible world where this didn't hold.
S9: A foundation built too tall IS a wall. ; ^ )
I think you are right about worlds. But just what if Ultimate Truth isn’t necessarily just one more world? (same/same) Perhaps, there is Reality beyond mind’s constructs and her many worlds.
Do you know the story of the little frog in the well, which he had always called home, who couldn’t even imagine anything beyond the walls of that particular well? : ^ )
RE: S9: The outside world is only a small portion of what Buddha spoke of.
M: Maybe, maybe not. We can’t say with any certainty. Not that it matters.
S9: Don’t close yourself off to ALL possibility. There are many sages who speak about things that we, ourselves, haven't personally witnessed, YET. These sages are like the indian guides going out beyond the wagon trains of old, and coming back with information about the terrain up ahead.
Yes, don’t swallow anything whole, but don’t close off to it either…this is receptivity in a nutshell.
Q: "There is no large obstruction to Truth, than what we think we already know."
RE: S9: He also defined the mind and the self or no self, both very subjective.
M: I disagree, and this is a mistake.
S9: How do you define subjectivity? Isn’t it our inner world?
M: He didn't define the mind as subjective but as aggregate.
S9: Some of these aggregates are subjective, like how we personally deal with sensation, or mental formations, of our personal thought process. Are they not? Subjectivity is a process. An actual subjective self is a whole other subject.
M: You may be, I don’t think I am.
S9: I think you need to look a little closer. Most of what we believe has no foundation outside of useful context and personal appeal. When we finally see into Nirvana, this whole story world melts before our eyes. Absolutely everything that hasn’t yet melted, simply fits some personal need that you are still holding on to…grasping, (AKA an attachment).
M: I doubt everything.
S9: No you don’t. You don’t doubt the capacity of your own intellect.
If Ultimate Truth is outside of intellection, than intellect too can become a barrior, or an obstacle, especially if we hold it to our heart, and call it “me,” (AKA Wrongful Identification).
Respectfully,
S9
S9: You say you doubt things until they can prove themselves true beyond any doubt, and yet you make quite a few assumptions, IMPO.
M: No. I say I doubut everything and start from nothing to see what i cannot doubt.
S:For instance, how do you know this world, and you, and Dharma Practice (for that matter) aren’t simply a dream?
M: I absoluty dont know that. However in all dream works and all nightmare worlds, and crazy worlds and possible worlds it is true that all contingent things will be impermanent, connected and empty. I dont care if this is a dream or not, its all there is and i can never know. What is important to me is how I live my life and try to better understand dharma.
S9:Are you a true Philosophical Skeptic?
M: I realy dont care for labels. once you label something you confine it:) I am utterly skeptical, as I belive, may well be the Kalama Sutra and was Buddha.
S9: Yes, all finite things are impermanent, from what I have witnessed, as they are constantly becoming, or changing and transmuting, and disappearing again.
M: Think about a single point. Then two points. then three. Think what truths are true of those points. You will see dharma in that, too. its everywhere, not just human experinces. (Lost on salted.net on this)
S9:I think you are right about worlds. But just what if Ultimate Truth isn’t necessarily just one more world? (same/same)
M: See I dont know what you mean here. I am with the Buddha and the idea that that kind of talk isnt useful. it wont ever lead there. A universe is something connected and limited by the same laws, I belive, but that is about all I can speak of it externally:)
S9: Do you know the story of the little frog in the well, which he had always called home, who couldn’t even imagine anything beyond the walls of that particular well? : ^ )
M3: Sure sure, I 100% agree with that. In the frog in the well or Flatlander or whatever sense, I cannot imagine alternate realities. But perhaps that is because my imagination is limited by my reality so I cannot imagine outside of that. In the same way I cant imagine what came before this universe, I cant imagine, outside of this universe in time, either. BUT and this is the biggest BUTT in Buddhism IMHO, But, I cannot imagine any world that isn't a Dharmic world. Why an earth could any Buddhist find this fact, which all are entitled to really try hard to disprove, not a positive thing for Buddhism?
S9: Don’t close yourself off to ALL possibility.
M: Please dont assume:) I have tried very hard to open myself up to the possibility of Buddhism, spiritually desperate to that rebirth was consistent and probable. I have grappled with all kinds of possibility trying to reconsile these beliefs, I don't think it can be done. this isn't for lack of my trying:) The "Rebirth and the Simulated Buddha" essay on salted.net has my ideas on this issue:) You have said you wont read, no problem, I just want you to know Its not idle fancy:)
s9:There are many sages who speak about things that we, ourselves, haven't personally witnessed, YET. These sages are like the indian guides going out beyond the wagon trains of old, and coming back with information about the terrain up ahead.
M: I do not follow the teachings of sages but of the Buddha:p And even these I try hard to doubt:)
S9: How do you define subjectivity? Isn’t it our inner world?
M: I think it is the world of a single unified experience, be it an attempt to represent an external world or a pure illusions, is a subjective experience. It is nothing but a single experience.
S9: I think you need to look a little closer.
M:
S9:When we finally see into Nirvana, this whole story world melts before our eyes.
M:How do you know that? Why should I not think that is just wishful thinking?
S9: You don’t doubt the capacity of your own intellect.
M: Can you please not state you opinion on what my doubts and opinions are unless I have told you it, because that is the only way you could resonably find out what someones opinion is:) I completely doubt my own intellect. I do not doubt Dharma, because when I try, I cannot:)
Mat
The frog story is interesting. What I never get is what's outside the universe and it can't just never end but if it stops what's outside the end. The beginning? But what's outside the wheel? That's why I realise that maybe the universe doesn't have to make sence or have an explanation. It's life and by God we should be using it to live not think about questions that will probobly never have an answer. That frog may have been ignorant of the outside world but if he can't get out than he might as well enjoy his life in the well, not fret about what's outside or by trying to find an answer his life's slipped through his webbed fingers before he even realises.
Love & Peace
Joe
Palzang
Love & Peace
Joe
The thing is that you don’t need to see what is outside of the universe. Truth is all about where you are, right here and now, only seen with “New Eyes.”
I always see meditation as a form of deprograming our organic computer, which we lovingly call ‘MY brain,’ or if we think we are our thoughts, we call it ‘My self.’ Looking at our thoughts, is a distancing from these thoughts which meditation supplies to us. We re-see or clarify old thinking habits that up until that moment we had simply taken for granted. Monkey mind was too scattered to do this weeding b/4.
All of the 'Ultimate Answers' that you will ever find, will be found right here in this very moment, as we never actually live outside of the Immediate Moment. If you deal with the past, you are actually dealing with it in the now. This is also true of any future that we can dream up. Now is the only place where you can do anything, about anything at/all, isn’t it?
Mind is a little animal that really loves an explanation. So why be a big meany, and take away its fun? But, in over view we also begin to realize that many things are beyond our minds capacity to understand or control.
Life is very cyclic, (the wheel), and we simply do things again and again because it is called for again and again. Very little is one time only, or even “once and for all.” We eat just to be hungry again, we sleep simply to grow tired once again, and the mind wonders about things, because that is the mind's food, and grows hungry for answers...again. We accept these things (if we are wise), simply because they are out of our hands, and really a rather harmless little dance.
BTW, I was glad to see that you could laugh at yourself, in a reply to someone else. That is a great tool for distancing. One that some people never learn.
Warm Regards,
S9
Actually I wasn't talking about your thoughts. Thoughts are like the ripples on a pond. A deep, deep pond. Try looking at your mind that way. See if you can find any limits to it.
Palzang
M: No. I say I doubt everything and start from nothing to see what I cannot doubt.
S9: How exactly did you get to this place of nothing, where you could begin to doubt everything? Didn’t you still believe there was something capable of doubting in that place? Didn’t you believe that there was something that could know the difference between what could be doubted and what could not be doubted AND wasn’t that thing using discrimination, actually your mind? Sounds a bit like Descartes whittling down to the thinking instrument, doesn’t it?
M: I don’t care if this is a dream or not, its all there is and I can never know.
S9: Ah, don’t give up so easily. ; ^ ) You must admit that dreams come very close to being like emptiness taking form and then ‘POOF’ gone again.
M: What is important to me is how I live my life and try to better understand dharma.
Q: wiki: Dhamma (Pāli: धम्म) or Dharma (Sanskrit: धर्म) in Buddhism has two primary meanings:
The teachings of the Buddha, which lead to enlightenment (The Universal law of nature)
the constituent factors of the experienced world (The characteristic of elements)
S9: My question to you is, if Dharma characteristics are that of a dream, (as in Buddha Woke Up) and you rule this out as impossible to understand, how than can you turn around and understand it?
RE: S9:
Are you a true Philosophical Skeptic?
M: I really don’t care for labels.
S9: Ah, but you labeled yourself as a philosopher. Can’t play both ends and the middle.
And:
Skeptics are the doubters par excellence in the philosophy world, are they not?
; ^ )
M: I cannot imagine alternate realities.
S9: But, Buddha nature isn’t an alternate reality. It is an alternate perspective of this present reality, is it not?
M: I cannot imagine any world that isn't a Dharmic world. Why on earth could any Buddhist find this fact, which all are entitled to really try hard to disprove, not a positive thing for Buddhism?
S9: I don’t think anyone does. Why do you ask this?
M: Please don’t assume I have tried very hard to open myself up to the possibility of Buddhism; spiritually desperate to that rebirth was consistent and probable. I have grappled with all kinds of possibility trying to reconcile these beliefs; I don't think it can be done. This isn't for lack of my trying.
S9: I don’t doubt your sincere trying, by any means. But, we must persist until we are “Awake” like the Buddha and not start, short of that mark, declaring things to be impossible. Don’t you mean, “So Far, I find it to be impossible?”
S9: How do you define subjectivity? Isn’t it our inner world?
M: I think it is the world of a single unified experience, be it an attempt to represent an external world, or pure illusions, is a subjective experience. It is nothing but a single experience.
S9: Of course the world is a single unified experience. But wasn’t it you that claimed there was an external world quite frequently. Dualistic language is just a convenient way of studying details,
M: Please can you try not to use "I think you need/should/want..."opinions? I am not interested your opinion on me and what you think I should think I will not give you my opinion on what I think you should do think etc.
S9: I think you need to look a little closer is just a nice way of saying I think you are wrong, nothing more. You say that constantly to others.
Re: S9: When we finally see into Nirvana, this whole story world melts before our eyes.
M: How do you know that?
S9: I have experienced such insights directly.
M: Why should I not think that is just wishful thinking?
S9: Because what I previously had thought and wished for, turn out to be incorrect. Very often these insights are not what we expect.
M: Can you please not state you opinion on what my doubts and opinions are unless I have told you it, because that is the only way you could reasonably find out what someone’s opinion is.
S9: Come on Mat, everyone knows it is my opinion and not the actual fact, but rather what I am picking up from your words. The second you open up your mouth to speak, someone is going to judge your words. If you can’t stand the heat, hide your writings in a locked draw. : ^ (
Respectfully,
S9
Hi
S9: How exactly did you get to this place of nothing, where you could begin to doubt everything?
M: If you become interested enough, its on salted.net, the game universes series.
S9:Didn’t you still believe there was something capable of doubting in that place?
M: I think you are confusing boundaries and it makes problems. This was not some deep excersise or descent past the stream stepping etc. Its a simple process of acting what things can be said of a 1,2,3,4 etc point static or dynamic universes. Try this yourself. If you keep thing consistent you will, I belive, end up at the Dharmic truths and these truths, from these first principles lead deeply into human experince and suffering:)
There is no mystery to me about this, or need for metaphore or assumption. Again, see salted.net if This intererests you:)
S9:Didn’t you believe that there was something that could know the difference between what could be doubted and what could not be doubted AND wasn’t that thing using discrimination, actually your mind?
M: "There is no thinker, only thoughts:)"
S9:Sounds a bit like Descartes whittling down to the thinking instrument, doesn’t it?
M: I have thought about this lots, it strikes me that its not the same as cogito ergo sum but equally its not in conflict with the cogito.
Consider:
Descartes: I think there for I am.
Buddha: I am only these thoughts (There is no thinker, only thought.)
I certainly don't have the answer to those two's relationship:)
S9: Ah, don’t give up so easily. ; ^ )
M: I consider 8 years of my life long enough:) The only way I could not give up on these esoteric aspects is if they could be shown to me in clear reason, not just as an experience during meditation.
S9: My question to you is, if Dharma characteristics are that of a dream, (as in Buddha Woke Up) and you rule this out as impossible to understand, how than can you turn around and understand it?
M:
S9:Are you a true Philosophical Skeptic?
M: I really don’t care for labels.
S9: Ah, but you labeled yourself as a philosopher. Can’t play both ends and the middle.
M: Oh please, can this chat not be about me or you but just the statements and truths we think are Dharma. Its just fruitless to quibble over such things as if anyone is a philosopher or a thervadan etc. Its just distracting and pointless:)
I just want to focus on the issues of Dharma, not the issues of Buddhists:)
Thanks
Mat
And:
Skeptics are the doubters par excellence in the philosophy world, are they not?
; ^ )
M: I cannot imagine alternate realities.
S9: But, Buddha nature isn’t an alternate reality. It is an alternate perspective of this present reality, is it not?
M: I cannot imagine any world that isn't a Dharmic world. Why on earth could any Buddhist find this fact, which all are entitled to really try hard to disprove, not a positive thing for Buddhism?
S9: I don’t think anyone does. Why do you ask this?
M: Please don’t assume I have tried very hard to open myself up to the possibility of Buddhism; spiritually desperate to that rebirth was consistent and probable. I have grappled with all kinds of possibility trying to reconcile these beliefs; I don't think it can be done. This isn't for lack of my trying.
S9: I don’t doubt your sincere trying, by any means. But, we must persist until we are “Awake” like the Buddha and not start, short of that mark, declaring things to be impossible. Don’t you mean, “So Far, I find it to be impossible?”
S9: How do you define subjectivity? Isn’t it our inner world?
M: I think it is the world of a single unified experience, be it an attempt to represent an external world, or pure illusions, is a subjective experience. It is nothing but a single experience.
S9: Of course the world is a single unified experience. But wasn’t it you that claimed there was an external world quite frequently. Dualistic language is just a convenient way of studying details,
M: Please can you try not to use "I think you need/should/want..."opinions? I am not interested your opinion on me and what you think I should think I will not give you my opinion on what I think you should do think etc.
S9: I think you need to look a little closer is just a nice way of saying I think you are wrong, nothing more. You say that constantly to others.
Re: S9: When we finally see into Nirvana, this whole story world melts before our eyes.
M: How do you know that?
S9: I have experienced such insights directly.
M: Why should I not think that is just wishful thinking?
S9: Because what I previously had thought and wished for, turn out to be incorrect. Very often these insights are not what we expect.
M: Can you please not state you opinion on what my doubts and opinions are unless I have told you it, because that is the only way you could reasonably find out what someone’s opinion is.
S9: Come on Mat, everyone knows it is my opinion and not the actual fact, but rather what I am picking up from your words. The second you open up your mouth to speak, someone is going to judge your words. If you can’t stand the heat, hide your writings in a locked draw. : ^ (
Respectfully,
S9[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the conversation. It has been interesting. : ^ )
I believe we have followed this line of thinking far enough though.
Later,
S9
Likewise:) be well:)
Love & Peace
Joe
Didn't meditate lastnight so haven't tried it yet...
S9,
Thanks for the advice and the wee compliment at the end;)
Love & Peace
Joe
Sometimes it is hard to tell the difference between arguing and debating, when the feathers start to fly. But I was not angry, only interested in studying the details, can't speak for Mat. But I imagine aside from his being a bit defensive, and my faults, which I am blind to, he hopefully felt the same way. I consider him an e-friend. It’s a philosophical thing to debat with passion. ; ^ )
AND:
Your welcome, probably worth every penny I charged you to say my advise.
However:
You deserved that compliment. It is not that common a capacity, to be able to laugh at yourself, as you might think. : ^ )
Peace,
S9
Oh gosh absolutely!:) Some debates on here have made me annoyed, I am ashamed to say, but I hope I have learned from them, both about Dharma and my own faults in debating!:)
I really enjoyed our chat and didn't think it negative at all. I hope there are more constructive opposed debates on here and I hope those that don't want to debate Dharmic philosophy focus on the other interesting chats on this forum:)
Peace!:)+:)=:):):)
Mat
The thing I absalutely love about my father is our converstations. He's a homophobic racist sexist religion-hater. I'm a people loving religion studying equal rights maniac. And I get annoyed as hell but I LOVE a debate
Love, Metaphors, Debates, and Peace
Joe:)
Have you tried to explain to him the 4NT?:)
Mat
The Four Noble Truths
All systems will tend towards suffering.
This suffering has causes, that is craving and delusion.
If the causes can be eradicated the suffering will cease
The Noble Eighfold Path can eradicate the causes of suffering.
Love & Peace
Joe
He clearly has a problem:) I guess the Dharnic approach woulkld be to help him find out what that problem was and help him find how he can at least keep it out of your life:) IMHO
Your father is obviously a very frightened person. No one judges whole groups of people harshly without meeting them individually, unless they have personal issues of their own. That type of thinking only creates many enemies in your mind and frightens you even further.
Although what I am about to say to you will seem counter-intuitive, please listen and think on it. : ^ )
What you are going to have to do is forgive him. Not because he necessarily deserves it. That’s not important right now. You are going to forgive him, because you deserve it. If you don’t, you will carry him like a heavy weight in your heart for your whole life.
Right now you are angry, that is the root of depression. We pick up anger wrongfully because we feel it will protect us, but it doesn’t. It is a toxin that can only cause a sickness of the heart. Depression is anger held in and directed back at our selves.
Look at your dad, not like a grown up person, just for a little while, but like a young child. Notice how frightened he is, so you can feel sorry for him. This will change him before your eyes eventually into someone who needs help and didn’t get it. His faults are a sickness, and not who he is. We are all suffering from the thought sickness. Just some more than others it seems.
Don’t try to change your situation, just see it very clearly. You will be surprised how much you will grow as a person.
Deep down inside, everyone is afraid they are like their parents and have to fright this idea with anger at them. You are your own person, we all are. I can see a lot of good in your gentle self. To be like him you would have to change drastically, and that seems impossible to me.
And lastly:
Do try meditating each day for the stress.
Okay, I’ll shut up. ; ^ )
Peace my e-friend,
S9
Imagine having the privilege of being with a loved one, like a father, as they take their last breath. What would you want to share with them in those last moments of life? A hug? A gentle kiss? An argument?
I also imagine parents as really only wanting to see their children safe and happy. Could this perhaps lead to some fear? (This may include old "Buddist-ish" folks, by the way)
I also learned a trick to use when approaching an "authority figure" with a potentially divisive subject. What I was taught was to simply ask them for their advice and recommendations on the subject, listen to them very carefully (as above - with loving intentions) and thank them without voicing disagreement, even if I felt it. If they request some response, I simply tell them I have to think about what they said - and I really do pay attention, in case they ask me to identify some specific aspect of what they said as worthy of thinking about - gotta be really attentive and not just blowing them off!
This approach tends to assure the other that I appreciate them and their advice and allows them to reciprocate in kind and allow me to state my point of view without judgment - sometimes.
It may not satisfy my desire to prove an arguable point but it does nurture a kind of friendly respect between us, which may lead to the other acknowledging the correctness of a point of view as I prove it in my way of living, each moment.
I think, if we just stick to the path and really love each other wholeheartedly, we'll make it!!!
Palzang
Some adopted children are angry when they discover their parents are not their blood-parents. The thing is although I'd feel about about my parents not wanting you look on the bright. Your mum might have been a teenager and she could have just had an abortion but she didn't. She could have wanted what was best for you. Then there was your adoptive parents, you may not be there's but they chose you to look after and care for out of millions of orphans in the world...
Bob and S9,
Great advise thanks
'Sort of.' Really I don't know why he's homophobic, I think he isn't but he sort of wants to be. He's really racist though, I mean he HATES foreign people to a creepy extent... Anyway I should try and understand his point of view but morraly I think he's wrong, and I have no intention on changing my views just because;
'Those people from pakistan are coming over hear (not like you'd want the best for your family dad)' or 'trying to turn us Islamic' (not like Christians didn't beat them to it and I think you forgot the part that you don't even like Christianity.)
Honestly I just see him as, confused and scared as you put it :-/
Love & Peace
Joe
Sorry, Joe, I'm having a hard time figuring out what you're trying to say here. Could you restate it? Sorry...
Palzang
Perhaps, like all of us your dad has mixed feelings about how he feels about minority groups. Some people are so afraid of feeling like an ‘outsider,’ (AKA not belonging), or of not being [quotes] normal, that they compensate by pick up what they feel are the average opinions of their times, or their culture. Yet, in their 'heart of hearts,' they don’t really feel that strongly about it, and so are somewhat astranged from themselves.
In other words, they have 2 selves: their make believe self [AKA neurosis], and they real self at war within. So that their thought patterns come out a real mish/moch of incompatible feelings, which must feel pretty confusing at times. No wonder they feel off balance.
It does sound to me, though, like you are already trying to forgive him.
This is a very important step. As later on you will have to forgive yourself for not being perfect, and you will have had some practice in that area. ; ^ )
Keep smiling. It can only get better.
Peace,
S9
Palzang, I was saying if you're adopted to look on the bright side basically, in responce to the half-joking pychiatrist...
Perfect advice S9. If you can love him, you can love you.
Good luck Joe. It sounds like you are making some real headway.
Namaste