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Wrong View/ Micca Dhitti
upekka
Veteran
'unless we are enlightened or mindful after seeing the reality
almost all the time we are having the wrong view'
if the above statement is correct, whenever we see, hear, taste, smell, touch or think we are having wrong view or delusion
because we are having wrong view (delusion) then it is inevitable we are having re-linking conciousness
then there is a next round of samsara or re-birth
if anyone against to above statements i would like to know why do you against?
if anyone aggree to above statements how can we get rid of wrong view (delusion)
hope we can have a fruitful discussion
thanks:)
almost all the time we are having the wrong view'
if the above statement is correct, whenever we see, hear, taste, smell, touch or think we are having wrong view or delusion
because we are having wrong view (delusion) then it is inevitable we are having re-linking conciousness
then there is a next round of samsara or re-birth
if anyone against to above statements i would like to know why do you against?
if anyone aggree to above statements how can we get rid of wrong view (delusion)
hope we can have a fruitful discussion
thanks:)
0
Comments
References are required.
It's important for everyone to be able to examine the source of such statements.
Many thanks!
after i read 'chula hatti padopama sutta', 'madu pindika sutta', 'rahulovada sutta', 'maha salayathana sutta' and a few more (considering the amount of suttas in sutta pitaka) suttas, i contemplate and came to the above understanding
therefore i can not provide any specific sutta reference
in my case, i have listened to a few dhamma talks and read a few suttas and contemplate on them and come up with some understanding
i would like to share 'my understanding' and want to get correct if i am wrong
i appreciate any experience practisioner who correct me
and
inexpereience practisioners can get benefit out of the discussion too
Thich Nhat Hanh's - 'The Heart of the Buddha's Teachings'
part of which may be previewed at:
http://books.google.com/books?id=mguMwvBonZ0C&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=right+view+thich+nhat+hanh&source=bl&ots=C9zt-gHD-Z&sig=Jtj-9XoyoVqtJLb2cR_mAHK0cfQ&hl=en&ei=mq5YS5yGIIOQsgOen5nGBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CBIQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=right%20view%20thich%20nhat%20hanh&f=false
and:
(ii) The quality of the ability to discard and to realise, 1:6.2-4
1:6.2-4 Completely abandoning the three constant fetters,
The bodhisattva possesses supreme delight
And is able to stir a hundred worlds.
The second quality is küntü jorwa sum (kun tu sbyor ba gsum), which has been translated here as ‘fetters’. In Tibetan, it means something that not only holds you in samsara, but also pulls you down into samsara. There are three of these fetters, or causes that draw us into samsara and hold us there:
Holding a certain view as supreme (lta ba mchog ’dzin). This has three subcategories:
1. Thinking that the five aggregates are supreme, jigtsok (’jigs tshogs). We think that I, me and mine are supreme. We hold this view as supreme – we think ‘I am supreme’ – that is why we are here, and why we return repeatedly.
2. Thinking Nirvana is supreme, tar ta (mthar lta), such as wanting to be reborn in heaven, thinking that heaven is supreme or that enlightenment is supreme.
3. Thinking that a wrong view is the supreme view, logta (log lta). For example, some people have an inferiority complex, and think that they are useless or worthless. This is a wrong view, but you think it is a supreme view. You are addicted to it – you love to think that you are bad or worthless. Another example is thinking that ignorance is something inherent that cannot be destroyed.'
excerpted from: Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche – Madhyamakavatara – 1996 Chapter 1, page 29,
which may be requested for download from:
https://app.etapestry.com/hosted/KhyentseFoundation/OnlineForm.html
ask for the: 'Madhyamikavatara Commentary'
Shalom
For an understanding that's beneficial to actual practice I would replace "relinking consciousness" with "dukkha."
When the sense bases are tainted with delusion, greed, and aversion, clinging will arise and so dukkha will arise.
People generally believe that in the case of seeing, it is the eye which actually sees. They think that seeing and the eye are one and the same thing. They also think: "Seeing is I," "I see things," "The eye, seeing, and I are one and the same person." In reality this is not so. The eye is one thing and seeing is another, and there is no separate entity such as "I" or "ego." There is only the reality of seeing coming into being depending on the eye.
People who are without the training in and knowledge of insight meditation hold the view that seeing belongs to or is "self," "ego," "living entity," or "person." They believe that "seeing is I," or "I am seeing," or "I am knowing." This kind of view or belief is called sakkaya-ditthi.
Physical pain, aging, sickness, separation and death are natural consequences of birth. These are seen as just inevitable experiences without a sufferer. When the ego is seen as false a great burden is lifted as in the ultimate sense there is nothing to protect or defend.
what do we have to do to get rid of this 'I see' or 'I see things'?
Vipassana or insight meditation
http://www.vipassanadhura.com/whatis.htm
My question is, is it enough to 'see the ego as false' for this this burden to be lifted? A person may see his ego as false, but neverthess the ego remains for this perception to hold; and true reality remains hidden and the burden remains.
If you could just clear up my understanding please.
It is so easy once you understand. It is so simple and direct. When pleasant things arise, understand that they are empty. When unpleasant things arise, see that they are not yours. They pass away. Don’t relate to them as being you, or see yourself as the owner of them. You think that papaya tree is yours, then why don’t you feel hurt when it is cut down? If you can understand this, then this is the correct path, the correct teaching of the Buddha, and the teaching that leads to liberation.
No Ajahn Chah
http://www.dharmaweb.org/index.php/No_Ajahn_Chah:_Reflections
I believe that there is another way to look at ‘Right View,’ in that it is not only opinions that are correct, and accumulated, nor is it seeing what isn’t true over a period of time. It is more like direct seeing (insight if you wish), into what is in fact Reality/Liberation.
Seeing this, you instantaneously know what isn’t real from that second onward, an epiphany. This is similar to coming into a dark room and throwing on the light. Does the room get light slowly over time, or all at once?
Warm Regards,
S9
i tried to differenciate the 'seeing' and the 'see a thing'
my unerstanding is as follows
Look at the word 'upekka'
what do we see?
we see a colour
our eyes meet the colour and our attention is there
This is the 'seeing'
But do we stop at the seeing
No
we go beyond the colour and we recognize letters, make a word and make a male/female out of the word
we recognize the letters because we learnt them before (past)
we can make a word out of letters which represent a name of a person (past)
if these letters occurs for the first time in this thread the mind registers them as ' new member' ('a thing' for future reference)
if we have seen them before there is a perception like 'ah, this is one of old member of the forum' ('a thing' came from the past)
seeing brings up our previous knowledge (past) and this the 'see a thing'
(if there is 'see a thing' 'I" is there to see that)
we react to this 'see a thing' if our attention does not turn into another seeing, hearing, feeling or knowing
therefore being mindful means we do not fall back to the 'past' but stay at the 'present moment' of seeing/hearing/feeling/knowing
this will help us to act mindfully rather than react absent mindedly
hmm.. its easier to said than done
Fortunately practice make perfect
any comments
I will grant you that the mind adds onto what we originally see (sensually) with our physical eyes, and than we have a mish-mash of physical seeing and memory traces all stuck together. But, I don’t believe that Right View is all about getting rid of the memory traces, so that we can get back to simply seeing in a more physical fashion again, (back to the garden/myth), or what some might call back to our original animal self.
I see it more like 3 stages: (1) the physical seeing, (2) the mental seeing, and (3) the spiritual seeing. So that 'Right View' is seeing through, or seeing past, 1/physical and 2/mental seeeing to what is foundational/transcends both of these. (Something far more subtle.)
Buddha said, Self is not physical or mental as they are impermanent and empty.
Now, some may go on to say that there is no self altogether, and others think that there may be a more spiritual understanding than that. Or said differently, some say there is no-ego-self, but there certainly is a Real Self, something more Ultimately True. I weigh in on the Ultimate Self as I feel that I have personally witnessed this.
(Both of these belong to different Buddhist schools.)
Yet, we all seem to agree that our first impressions about what 'seeing' is, may not necessarily be correct. So, we search and investigate all that is said, and all that we think we know, all in our own ways, in order to answer this pressing question, “What is Right View?”
What I think I have found is that there are relative truth, which serve us quite conveniently while living in this world, and there are more Ultimate Truths beyond this world's dream.
Warm Regards,
S9
No
i never suggest of getting rid of the memory traces because until we die the memory traces will come without doubt
that is the way it is whether we like it or not
but i suggest if we can be mindful of our sensual experiences which are tarnished with our memory traces we would not react instantly instead we act mindfully
because we are mindful we do not act with greed, hate or delusion
there is no greed, hate or delusion means we act with awarenesss and there is no formation (sankhara) for future (next moment or any future time) becoming
so it itself a non-becoming (for a moment) should i say the relative truth is useful to live in our 'dream world' and when we awake from the dream we meet the Ultimate Truth
U: I suggest if we can be mindful of our sensual experiences, which are tarnished with our memory traces we would not react instantly instead we act mindfully
because we are mindful we do not act with greed, hate or delusion.
S9: Well, yes we should try to think before acting and not simply to react knee jerk to any situation. But, don’t you think we can govern our thoughts and not simply our actions?
U: There is no greed, hate or delusion means we act with awareness, and there is no formation (sankhara) for future (next moment or any future time) becoming
so it itself a non-becoming (for a moment).
S9: Well not exactly. We would be forming (Good?) sankharas for the future.
U: What I think I have found is that there are relative truth, which serve us quite conveniently while living in this world, and there are more Ultimate Truths beyond this world's dream.
S9: Ah, I said the same thing, just recently.
U: Should I say the relative truth is useful to live in our 'dream world' and when we awake from the dream we meet the Ultimate Truth.
S9: Exactly. But, actually they are going on simultaneously, right now.
Warm Regards,
S9
gin the right view doesn't mean that we always (24 hours) with the righ view yes we would be forming sankharas for the future if we are not arahnt (able to have the right view always)
however for a one thoughtful moment which could have been many more sankhara for indefinete time periood could be stopped forever
there is no doubt the next thought moment (if it is with wrong view) create sankhara for the future
WONDERFUL s9:)
U: Gaining the right view doesn't mean that we always (24 hours) with the right view.
S9: Perhaps at first it is only a glimpse, which the mind cannot hold on to, and it slowly slips away only to be retrieved once more. But after a while, it is more like an attitude that you live from, rather than something you try to hold onto, don’t you think?
Respectfully,
S9
agree with 'you S9'
respectfully,
upekka
wrong view is a view thus subjectivity thus grasping thus ego.
once a person realizes right view then there is only right view. even the old wrong view is seen as right view.
it's all just infinite potential at its root.
metta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.009.ntbb.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.117.than.html
naw i want to hear your explanation of right view and wrong view.
not some other random enlightened guy or some words theoretically spoken by buddha.
please?
that is all
with metta
if we do not get it right then our practise of the morality & meditation in the 8-fold path may be misguided
You are mixing up 'right view' with 'insight' (vipassana)
To practise morality, one must have the right view
For example, if we do a business deal and believe: "By following 227 precepts, I will surely attain jhana", this is wrong view
Such a view cannot eradicate obstacles to meditation, such as sensual desire
For precepts to bear fruit, one must have right view about harming & non-harming
Or if we do a business deal and believe: "By following 227 precepts, I will surely attain jhana & gain a good rebirth", this is wrong view
Believing in rebirth rather than final impermanence will not assist meditation because believing in rebirth perpetuates "becoming"
To commence with right view is very important
If we are compassionate, we ensure others do not delude themselves
The eightfold path is not a preparation for right view
Right view is a preparation for the eightfold path
In fact, prior to right view, is faith in the Buddha
If we reject the Buddha's teachings, then the path will be difficult
Kind regards
I think there is some miscommunication. I agree that the 8 fold path is not preparation. What I meant was that when mere mortals have wrong view but are trying to follow the eightfold path that is preparation. If they are busy in domestic violence it is unlikely they will see correctly due to being overwhelmed by anger. As an example. Of course anger and loss could be just the thing for motivation but thats a separate thing.
I wasn't touching rebirth in my statements
My point on morality is not explicitly stated in the suttas. My not being a scholar I am of course not sure if it is at least. But I reason that buddha displayed appropriate behaviour. And thus if someone has an ego that they have attained realization. You know how some become deluded. One litmus test is that if they find a lot of moral problems. If they are harming others it is unlikely that they have attained the same realization as the Buddha since Buddha action was appropriate. This is a circumstantial argument of course. One could imagine that the buddhas morality was as inconsequential as the color of his eyes, but I doubt that. I think it is germane to enlightenment that one is compassionate. In the mahayana the cultivation of compassion is via generosity, morality, patience, endurance, joyful effort, concentration and stability. All of these are not actually existent. They are all dependently arisen. The insight supports these and the insight is insght into the truth of how things do exist.
So how does this relate to right view? Right view is how you see when you have insight.
I understand in the mahayana, guru & lama worship are central, but not all buddhism is like this
The first time i lived in a monastery, on one occassion, I was walking past & started looking at the big guru while he was eating
He obviously noticed me eye balling him so he started tossing his orange peels all over the floor, making a mess everywhere
worldly Right View is 'doing good, avoiding bad,and meditation on Dhamma (contemplating on five aggregates, three dhamma seal, six sense bases-external/internal, four elements etc.)'
in short we practices Eight-fold path
this practice is the cause which brings the effect of Noble Right View
(one sees the reality of the world which means one awakes from the dream)
once one is with the Noble Right View (samma dhitti - sothapanna - Dhamma chakku)
(CHAKKUNG UDAPADI)
one practices Noble Eight-fold Path which leads to liberation
how is this practice should go?
there should be effort ( samma viriya) to be mindful/remind (samma sathi) the 'Noble Right View' (samma dhitti)
(NGANANG UDAPADI)
which result in Right Thought (samma sankappa)
when there is Right Thought the words, deeds and livelihood get correct
(PANGNA UDAPADI)
is there greed, hate or delusion now?
NO
so this is liberation (vimutti)
(VDYA (vijja) UDAPADI)
when (not time) one knows (awareness) of this (not a thing) there is (not a place) liberation (not a thing)
this is vimutti ngna darsana
(ALOKO UDAPADI)
appreciate comments,
thanks
Right view = another topic for discussion
Relative to Nibbana, all other views apart from Noble Right View are wrong views
in that case, even the Worldly Right View is also Wrong View
because one does not know
All conditions are impermanent, and suffering
and
All conditions and nibbana ( All Dhamma) are non-self