Dzogchen and Lam Rim

NamelessRiver

I was just wondering if Dzogchen and Lam Rim :

1) have any relation
2) if they are practiced together
3) if they are self sufficient systems (i.e. if they contain everything you need to get to enlightenment)
Oh, and if they need some sort of initiation. :-)

Thank you for the kind answers in advance!

shenpennangwa

NamelessRiver wrote: »

I was just wondering if Dzogchen and Lam Rim :

1) have any relation
2) if they are practiced together
3) if they are self sufficient systems (i.e. if they contain everything you need to get to enlightenment)
Oh, and if they need some sort of initiation. :-)

Thank you for the kind answers in advance!

the practices are compatible. Lam Rim (stages of the path) is more a class of instructional texts the most famous of course being Tsongkhapa's. Although the Gelugpa's dont generally practice Dzogchen it still falls into the stage of "completion" or dzog rim which is indeed a "stage on the path".
For several years I practiced the LamRim teachings. For me they were essential and led to my personal realization that the practice and instruction for me to be pursuing at this point was Dzogchen.
Most of the early practices in the Lam Rim do not require an initiation or empowerment.
Any practice of Dzogchen does.

Mani

I would agree with shenpen nangwa.

It is often said that the various Lam Rim's are viewed as a precursor for one wishing to practice Vajrayana, though one does not need to cast it aside at that point. The Lam Rim's initially acts as a foundation for one's path. As one's practice continues, however, it has often been said that many things we come across can be compared to a particular section of the Lam Rim.

Self study is very good, though if one has the opportunity to receive an actual Lam Rim teaching in person from a Lama it is wonderful.

Though there are many Lam Rim texts, of course Je Tsongkhapa's Lam Rim Chen Mo (Great Stages On The Path To Enlightenment) is one of the best. For a more experiential Lam Rim teaching, I highly recommend "Liberation In The Palm Of Your Hand", a written account of a 21 day teaching by Kyabje Pabonka Rinpoche given in 1921. It contains the essence of the various Lam Rims.

NamelessRiver

Though there are many Lam Rim texts, of course Je Tsongkhapa's Lam Rim Chen Mo (Great Stages On The Path To Enlightenment) is one of the best.

I am giving this one a try, I really wanna dive into Lam Rim, because it seems so organized and complete, so far I haven't get past the preliminaries tough :-(

Self study is very good, though if one has the opportunity to receive an actual Lam Rim teaching in person from a Lama it is wonderful.

Oh well I have Thubten Chodron's guided lam rim meditations and Lam Rim Chen Mo, personal teachings are out of the question for the time being. [Can I consider myself a Mahayana buddhist?]

BrotherBob

Hi Nameless,

Ven. Thubten Chodron's instruction on Lamrim is very good. Also, Yangshi Rinpoche of Maitripa Institute (Foundation for the Preservation of the Mahayana Teachings) wrote a good commentary on the Lamrim called, 'Practicing the Path: a commentary on the Lamrim Chenmo' http://books.google.com/books?id=oniI78eCan0C&dq=Practicing+the+path+:+a+commentary+on+the+Lamrim+Chenmo&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=RD1eS-SRMYGOswOhiYnjAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBkQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Shugs

shenpennangwa

NamelessRiver wrote: »

I am giving this one a try, I really wanna dive into Lam Rim, because it seems so organized and complete, so far I haven't get past the preliminaries tough :-(



Oh well I have Thubten Chodron's guided lam rim meditations and Lam Rim Chen Mo, personal teachings are out of the question for the time being. [Can I consider myself a Mahayana buddhist?]

i studied Lam Rim quite a bit when I first started out and was fortunate enough to receive the complete transmission of Tsongkhapa's LamRim Chenmo from a wonderful Gelug lama. I really cant speak highly enough for studying and practicing the LamRim, there are some very good commentaries available by Geshe Sopa, they are in several volumes entitled Steps on the Path.
Dont hesitate to ask any questions that you might have.
If you ask me a thorough understanding of the paths and practices is essential before engaging in Dzogchen practice.
Dzogchen is an incredibly profound path and a firm foundation is certainly necessary in order to utilize its potent methods.

Mani

Yes, This is a fairly long text. Other books such as "liberation..", and other commentaries may hit the more essential aspects as some of the shorter Lam Rim's do, but Tsongkhapa' is certainly very concise.

I might suggest to keep going with the Lam Rim, but perhaps to get your feet a little wet without getting bogged down in this fairly large text, you may want to have a look at a very short text by Je Tsongkhapa called "The Three Principal Aspects Of The Path". These three principal aspects of renunciation, bodhicitta, and correct view make up the whole of the Mahayana practice, and the Lam Rim's are essentially a very detailed version of these three aspects. I think this is quite useful for gaining a good foundation in Mahayana and a good starting point for many.

So, you may want to listen to this dharma talk by Ven. Choden Rinpoche..

http://www.lamrim.com/lamrim/threeprincipals.html

or a "shorter" book on the same text...

http://www.amazon.com/Three-Principal-Aspects-Path/dp/1559391162/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1264472188&sr=8-1

Hope this helps

Mani

NamelessRiver

Ven. Thubten Chodron's instruction on Lamrim is very good. Also, Yangshi Rinpoche of Maitripa Institute (Foundation for the Preservation of the Mahayana Teachings) wrote a good commentary on the Lamrim called, 'Practicing the Path: a commentary on the Lamrim Chenmo' http://books.google.com/books?id=oni...age&q=&f=false

Thanks for the link, that book seems nice, pretty straightforward.

Dont hesitate to ask any questions that you might have.

I will ask, thank you :-)

shenpennangwa

Mani wrote: »

Yes, This is a fairly long text. Other books such as "liberation..", and other commentaries may hit the more essential aspects as some of the shorter Lam Rim's do, but Tsongkhapa' is certainly very concise.

I might suggest to keep going with the Lam Rim, but perhaps to get your feet a little wet without getting bogged down in this fairly large text, you may want to have a look at a very short text by Je Tsongkhapa called "The Three Principal Aspects Of The Path". These three principal aspects of renunciation, bodhicitta, and correct view make up the whole of the Mahayana practice, and the Lam Rim's are essentially a very detailed version of these three aspects. I think this is quite useful for gaining a good foundation in Mahayana and a good starting point for many.

So, you may want to listen to this dharma talk by Ven. Choden Rinpoche..

http://www.lamrim.com/lamrim/threeprincipals.html

or a "shorter" book on the same text...

http://www.amazon.com/Three-Principal-Aspects-Path/dp/1559391162/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1264472188&sr=8-1

Hope this helps

Mani

The Three Principles of the Path is an excellent suggestion.
and Choden Rinpoche is a very impressive lama.
Both good suggestions Mani.

Mani

His Lam Rim Chen Mo talk is excellent as well, but once again, something like a 25 hour teaching!

Sometimes I find that the three principal aspects is a helpful way to put these ideas and teachings into direct practice, which is important. From there one can explore certain aspects of Lam Rim that are more necessary as one progresses.

shenpennangwa

Mani wrote: »

His Lam Rim Chen Mo talk is excellent as well, but once again, something like a 25 hour teaching!

Sometimes I find that the three principal aspects is a helpful way to put these ideas and teachings into direct practice, which is important. From there one can explore certain aspects of Lam Rim that are more necessary as one progresses.

There is a really good commentary on the 3 principles by Gelek Rimpoche.
It can be ordered through his sangha Jewel Heart.
Actually, I highly recommend any of his commentaries for Gelugpas.