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cause and effect
upekka
Veteran
each and every moment we experience is an effect (pala/vipaka citta) of a previous cause (hetu citta)
each and every experience become a cause of future becoming if we do not know the 'cause and effect' theory
that means each experience is an effect and in turn it itself a cause for future effect
in short
effect=cause--->effect=cause--->effect=cause etc.
all learning about five aggregates, five clinging aggregates, dependent origination, abhidhmmic explanation of how the mind work and what does the material mean etc. are making the way of for us to understand this 'reality'
any comments
each and every experience become a cause of future becoming if we do not know the 'cause and effect' theory
that means each experience is an effect and in turn it itself a cause for future effect
in short
effect=cause--->effect=cause--->effect=cause etc.
all learning about five aggregates, five clinging aggregates, dependent origination, abhidhmmic explanation of how the mind work and what does the material mean etc. are making the way of for us to understand this 'reality'
any comments
0
Comments
What's the question exactly?
so each 'effect' is a rebirth and each effect is a cause for next round of rebirth
if there is knowing of dependent arising then there is no rebirth for an instant
contunuation of such rebirths we call 'life time of a person'
this is my understanding, do you say this understanding is incorrect?
Rebirth is a difficult subject. Some people view it as literal, such as consciousness leaving your body upon death and entering the ovum to constitute a new life (in the case of humans); others view it as metaphorical, as you say each moment consciousness fading away and giving rise to the next thought.
What is within my own realization is that the nature of a man is the same as the nature of a tree. Other than surviving, a tree does not exist for itself; it exists as a condition for future life and for the betterment of life (and its own species' reproduction). It is human self-centeredness that blinds us to our own nature, which is the same as the nature of all other phenomena: change, impermanence, affecting the life-stream that is called the future.
I can not say that rebirth either does or does not take place, nor what specifically that entails. It doesn't really matter though, does it? If you realize the true nature of life and that we have no "self" to serve (at any rate, anything we do for our self is lost upon death), then you will act in accord with nature and for the well-being of not only other humans but of all life.
Rebirth becomes one of those questions that, ultimately, may be unknowable. The real thing to contemplate is on whether it matters or not.
since understanding (own experience of) dependent origination itself reveals the 'rebirth'?
it is very interesting to discuss this (i too do not have someone near (buddhist) who can discuss these things
however i have to go now (my family wants to go out and demand for me to come with them- a certain Mara is working arround me now he he.)
#1: Rebirth
Egg + sperm + consciousness = new human life. Birth leads to disease, decay, and death. Upon death, consciousness leaves the body to join with another egg/sperm complex.
#2: The Other Way
Egg + sperm = new human life. Development of brain causes consciousness. Birth leads to disease, decay and death. Upon death, consciousness ceases. No requirement for migration of consciousness to another body, as consciousness itself arises after the mind/body complex develops.
Does it matter which of these is true? The truth of the Dhamma is that we are selfless and our actions for the good of life in this ever-changing existence are the only important thing. We live only for the future.
I'm content whether rebirth does or does not take place. I only know that I do not know... yet.
I dont think this is what rebirth is.
This idea of an enduring "consciousness" is what makes people skeptical about rebirth. Maybe consciousness is just a bad word for the process. I think what is taught is in reality a lot more subtle and sophisticated than an enduring consciousness.
this is one of the important part and this part is named as 'seela'
'seela' is a concept and whether we know the meaning of that concept is not important as far as our behaviour is according to it
however trying to unerstand 'what this thing called life' is a necessity to gain the wisdom
in that case we need to 'try to comprehend' Lord Buddha's Teaching Dependent origination etc.
in my case i tried to grasp the meaning of five aggregates and that effort was limited to 'read and think and tentatively know what five aggregates are'
however one year ago i had a chance to listen to 'pitigala gunarathna thero's sermon about 'sabbasava sutta' and he explained in detailed how we should look at our own six sense bases (eye, ear etc.) with the knowlege of Buddha's Teaching
It helped me a lot to understand/comprehend many difficult concepts of Buddha's Teaching
i have more confidence about the Buddha's Teaching now and i want to share them and get others comments which will help me to continue this practise further
thanks for everyone who contribute to the thread
f
The idea of a permanent self is conceived on a psychologically deep-rooted fear of death and annihilation. To maintain a sense of security and ensure self-preservation, the false concept of an immortal soul, believed to be unchanging and eternal, is created. But according to the law of causal dependence, this concept is untenable and unwarranted because all things, animate or inanimate, are relative and must depend on certain conditions for their arising and existence. Since all things are conditioned, it follows that they are also liable to change and disintegrate according to the conditions on which they depend.
The operation of the law of kamma presupposes both conditionality and changeability. In other words, it is only on account of a person's inherent susceptibility to conditioning that kamma will find space to function. Self as an unchanging absolute entity would not meet that requirement and is therefore irrelevant as far as the law of kamma is concerned. In this way, the doctrine of nonself further substantiates the law of kamma and makes it more acceptable to the critically-minded intellectual.
All physio-psychological phenomena are in a state of flux, arising and falling, according to the physical or psychological conditions present at the moment. What is conveniently called 'thinker' is nothing but the thought itself, which keeps rising and falling like all other realities. This is true of sensations, perceptions, and all other mental activities. There is no thinker behind the thoughts, no feeler behind sensations, no perceiver behind perceptions, no decision maker behind the process of making decisions. All these mental activities keep flowing from one moment to another in an intricately interwoven relationship, giving a false notion of permanent self to the unenlightened mind. As kamma is itself part of the mind stream, there is no need at all to introduce the concept of self as an agent of the action or a recipient of the result thereof.
Reality (often referred to as paramattha) is the natural state. Conventions are a useful and practical human invention. Problems arise when we confuse the two, clinging to the reality and trying to make it follow conventions. Within the actual reality there is no confusion, because the principle naturally functions by itself, not being subject to anybody's ideas about it -- it is people who become confused. And because reality is not confused, functioning independently of people's desires, it frustrates those desires and makes people even more confused and frustrated. Any problem occurring is purely a human one.
Everything remains as it always was and will be, only the view is different.
http://www.buddhanet.net/cmdsg/kamma6.htm#Do
question is how does the unenlightened mind avoid receiving a 'false notion of permanent self'
surely it is not just read another 'insight meditation materials'
Only through your own realization do you awaken to non-self as absolute truth. That is stream-entry. Afterward it's all good.
to get this realization what we should do?
Firstly, find a meditation technique that is easy (comfortable) for you; for me, it was observance of the breath, the same as the Buddha apparently used.
After your mind has become sharp, turn it to contemplation of these truths not only as they are explained to you in texts, but also how your direct experience of them applies. However this works for you, it'll probably be different than it worked for me.
I went into the process having a conceptual knowledge of, and agreeing with, impermanence, selflessness and dependent arising. The conceptual knowledge is nothing like the actual realization though.
While meditating deeply, I turned my mind to impermanence first, seeing it in everything I had ever experienced and anything else I could imagine being "out there". Then my mind turned to my "self", trying to find any part of the self that could be said to be permanent, or even to be a "core" at all, and finding nothing - only dependent organs and systems working together for survival.
After realizing impermanence/selflessness and the futility of self-centered existence, dependent arising become prominent and led to the realization of reality as it stands and not merely as we humans have perceived it to be. That reality is in a sense change itself, and that is the nature of not only life but all things. Whatsoever we do with selfish design is wasted, as it is not beneficial to others nor does it carry on into the future-state.
Whatever works for you, I wish you success in your endeavor. If the (human) world were awake, much of our suffering would be abated.
does this means the 'the experiences' we get from the six sense (eye ,ear etc.) bases?
For self, the same. Not only your sense-doors (eyes, ears, etc.) but your entire mind-body complex, including your feelings, perceptions, memory... everything.
It's the process of examining all-inclusive reality. In truth, selflessness is just an extension of impermanence. It is impermanence that shows you the way.
is this 'but a sense of ......' perception
or
just the 'green circle' is perception
or
something else?
Visual perception of the green circle is sense-data that in this case is accurate, and usually what-you-see-is-what-you-get, but it isn't always. More importantly is the perception that you associate with the green circle.
Just because metal is red doesn't mean it's hot.
Nothing is what it seems; not color, not solidity, not heat and cold. These are our mundane terms to explain what is a more complex process.
instead i would take time to think about it and would ask a better question
therefore, i just react to my distorted perception in this case 'i thought you were there and i would get an answer immediately' and type the question
so is this the thing we called fall back to 'wrong view'?
this discussion would help many to follow their practise
there is no doubt about it
THANKS AGAIN
The question “Is rebirth true or false?” can never be answered with absolutely certainty. In the same way as we can never answer with certainty about the existence of heaven or god. The questions are perhaps not meaningless, but they seem close to meaningless. At most we can have a faith.
Some faiths are backed up by science and experience and reason, others stand blindly on their own and all else must stand on them. But they are all faiths.
The fact that we must have some degree of faith in our reasonings about rebirth means there is no certainty. It is a pointless discussion that may be fun and interesting, but in terms of Dharma Practice is just wasting time.
This does not mean at all that there are no serious and interesting and relevant questions about the issue of Rebirth in Buddhism. Perhaps for Buddhists the important metaphysical question is not “Is there rebirth?” but “How would it change my life if I knew rebirth was false?”
Consider these two grounding metaphysical personal beliefs:
I don’t think we have to commit to either to see how a belief in one is incompatible with a belief in the other. They are not the same belief, in any sense.
Now the an interesting and perhaps important question you cancan ask yourself is this:
“If I believe A will my life be morally, mentally and spiritually different to if I believe B?”
If you think that A and B would lead to comparable moral, mental and spiritual benefits to your life then it shouldn’t matter to you if Rebirth is true or false.
If you think it does matter then the Right View, for you, is probably going to contain an investigation of your reasons for believing in Rebirth or not.
Thanks:)
Mat
The body is not self is it? If it were self it would do everything you want wouldn't it? It would not get sick, grow old or become ugly. You did not ask to be born but here you are. If "you" did not eat or drink or are exposed to excessive heat and cold "you" would die. The heart beats ,lungs breathe, bowel evacuates and bladder empties automatically even if "you" are unconscious. Most of the time "you" are not even aware of breathing. "You" were born weak and defenseless, then reach a peak in life and will eventually leave as you came. All things has this nature doesn't it from the smallest atoms to the living things to planets and even the universe itself. All are impermanent and that is always the case. All that is impermanent is dukkha(unsatisfactory) and empty of inherent existence and should not be clung to. "They" belong to no one and only came to be because of conditions.
rather than 'think' as either A or B
if we can recognize A or B is just a concept then that would help to strenthen the Right View
this means we are mindful of the perception of the present moment without incorperationg all we know about it into the concept at hand
I am simply asking a simple question:) I dont see the need for the sophestry and diversion:)
we have to slow down our 'thinking' unless we never see the above truth
to slow down 'our thinking' we have to practise 'tranquility meditation'
tranquility meditation can be sitting meditation (concentrate on breathing, metta etc.)
at a certain stage of tranquility meditation (how many days, months, years is depend on the person) we can suppress the five defilements (panca neevarana - lust, anger, laziness, restlessness and doubt (about meditation at the beginning and about Lord Buddha's Teaching at a later stage) and gain concentrated mind (samadhi)
with this concentrated mind (not when one is in Jhana) we can investigate the Teaching:
what is actually Rupa (form) ? we have to use all we have read and heard about (earth, fire, water, air)
first try to see what exactly earth means?
is this earth we called earth normally?
or the roughness we can touch ?
etc. investigate the concept 'earth' (do not go to the 'history' books again to collect knowledge of what others have talked about the earth, but investigate it with using our our five senses
can i see earth?
can i hear earth?
can i taste earth?
can i smell earth?
can i touch earth?
until we do this expriment ourselves we 'think' we know what is 'earth' whenever we read the word or heard the word 'earth'
when we try to do the experiment ourselves we know that we even do not know what exactly the concept called 'earth'
earth is one of the basic elements which helps to build our own 'world' and for the moment we say 'the world outside of us'
at a later stage we can see whether there is a real difference between 'our world' and 'the world outside of us' or not
Now back to the investigation of earth
how many of us can say for sure we know what is earth?
so in Insight meditation we have to go from the 'beginning'
if we want to get a successful answer to the question 'what is the concept called 'rebirth'?
we have to sart our investigation from the beginning
whatever we get from such an investigation is the 'INSIGHT'
we must try to 'grasp the meaning of earth' using our own senses (eye, ear, nose, tongue,and body) rather than take it for granted 'the earth' concept we already know
we have to do this type of investigation for other elements water, fire, air
Right .
Just watch all that arise in the six senses. Everything that arises, passes away from moment to moment. Eventually a sense of dispassion or nibbida arises. Nothing stays the same. Then contemplate on this
I am of nature to decay, I have not gone beyond decay.
I am of the nature to be diseased, I have not gone beyond disease.
I am of the nature to die, I have not done beyond death.
All that is mine, dear and delightful, will change and vanish.
I am the owner of my kamma, heir to my kamma, born of my kamma, related to
my kamma, abide supported by my kamma. Whatever kamma I shall do,
whether good or evil, of that I shall be the heir.
Thus we should frequently recollect.
- Upajjhatthana Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya v.57
Thanks Pegembara
suppose we grasp the meaning of earth, air, water and fire that we go beyond our conceptual knowledge of four elements
if we do not know 'why' we need to grasp the meaning of four elements our 'insight' is not useful
now we have a question
why do we have to grasp the meaning of four elements?
My understanding of 4 elements[42 parts of body] meditation is that it is a means to reduce attachment to our form[body]. One is attracted to the body wrapped by "beautiful" skin not realising what's underneath.
Just look at any videos or see a life surgical procedure and you will know what I mean. We feel disgust looking at decaying bodies thinking that is not "us" not realising that it is what the dead body does naturally, so we embalm to maintain the mirage that we want.