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The law of Reverse Enlightenment
RichardH
Veteran
We are all posting here because we are either practicing Buddhists, Buddha curious, or buddhist-ish. We are folks who have varying degrees of experience, insight, and so forth. Maybe some are fairly "enlightened" in a relatively insightful kinda way....sure.
But maybe it would be good to establish that none here has realized Anuttara Samyak-Sambhodi? If you have please say so. Thanks.
The reason I mention this is because of the law of reverse enlightenment...
When you start practicing you may be quite humble and looking for
guidance. Beginners mind, This is great.
But... there is another kind of beginner .... this is the kind that starts out Enlightened, ....then with time becomes progressively less Enlightened as you become less and less impressed with your smashing insights. This is when serious practice takes over, the grinding, responsible practice.
I confess to being the latter kind of beginner. I was soooo enlightened, my insights were just incredible, cosmic and profound. But.....life kept coming, and it didnt pay the rent.
Ring a bell?:D
But maybe it would be good to establish that none here has realized Anuttara Samyak-Sambhodi? If you have please say so. Thanks.
The reason I mention this is because of the law of reverse enlightenment...
When you start practicing you may be quite humble and looking for
guidance. Beginners mind, This is great.
But... there is another kind of beginner .... this is the kind that starts out Enlightened, ....then with time becomes progressively less Enlightened as you become less and less impressed with your smashing insights. This is when serious practice takes over, the grinding, responsible practice.
I confess to being the latter kind of beginner. I was soooo enlightened, my insights were just incredible, cosmic and profound. But.....life kept coming, and it didnt pay the rent.
Ring a bell?:D
0
Comments
Its amazing really how vast the Buddhist teachings are, as soon as we think we know something a whole new door to what we dont know is opened.
I think with all activities in this life the more you train and get involved the more difficult it is to see and realize the accomplishments (in this case insightnfullness) that you experience.
For instance, when I began rock climbing my progression was dramatic. I would increase my difficulty almost exponentially and each new improvement in my technique was vastly important to my overall climbing. Now, I have the basic muscle memory so innately part of my natural response that half the time I don't even have to think when I climb. My improvements now are small technical improvements that do not affect my overall climbing nearly as profoundly as the intial improvements but these smaller technical bits are critical to the problem I am facing. So it is with life.
Well that doesn't leave us beginners much of a choice :-p
I think the problem with learning, no matter what endeavour we are undertaking, is that we let things become habitual, we let our thoughts and our actions run down the same path so long, it is has engraved a little nook. If any of you have kids, or have seen kids you will notice their excitment in watching it rain for the first time, or when the sunrises, and when a plane goes across the sky.
It is the same with buddhism I would venture to imagine... we see so many cool things at first, but eventually these cool things become old, and we seek more insight, more knowledge... more more more. What we have is perfectly interesting if we allow it to be. Watch the rain or snow, or clouds fill the sky... if you can find a new take on what, as an "enlightened" person, you already have, what becomes a grinding practice will be up to you.
The waters of buddhism may seem to get old and no longer incredible and profound, but it's all about the reflection. The reflection is dependent on the mind that is looking into it, so... I think we have the ability to shape our practice, even if it has changed for us.
I might be misunderstanding what you are saying thouhgh... so I appologize if I am
You are correct in what you say but the point I was trying to make is, yes we can become overexposed and actually digress at times, but also as we increase our strength (or Buddha-nature intelligence), we will not see the dramatic differences in our net strength (or net Buddha-nature intelligence) as we did when we just started out.
Great thread!!
It's exactly in those subtle technical details of practice that I sooo need correction from the sangha; especially from my elders in training who have been through similar experiences and correction processes with their elders.
I imagine that's what training within a lineage is about.
And like pietro was saying, at first you have the amazing new expirieince, but like anything else, we become accustomed to seeing things one way, or they way they were presented. All I was saying is when things become really natural one way, there's always another aspect we can view it through. For instance, water falling from the sky (rain) is interesting as a kid, and as we mature we can dive into the deeper meaning... How does the water come to be? Where did it come from? Etc... I think the maturing can be just as interesting as the original discovery... or so I hope
Oh, I realize that :eek: and only responded because I wasn't satisfied I had elucidated my point very well. I do agree very much with what you said.
When I started out ten years ago, I thought, "Oh, I know impermanence and lack-of-selfhood" from my explorations of science. It was why I was first attracted to Buddhism. That, and I was desperately seeking something "spiritual", "mystical" even, that science didn't seem to provide.
Then one day after a few years I looked at the veins of a dead, rotting leaf and seemed to step for a few minutes into another world view. After that, I thought, "Oh, this is something like a moment of Enlightenment". For a few months I thought that I had understood Buddhism.
Then one day another Buddhist said (sadly within the context of which I forget now), "you sound like you see Buddhism as something good". After some weeks of thinking about this, I realised that I had become attached to the concepts of Buddhism. I had become preachy.
Since then, I started to actually read suttas and sutras and their commentaries. Now, as time goes on, I realise I actually know too much on the one hand - and know too little on the other hand.
Just count how many times I have used the word "I" to see how conceited I must be!!
So after ten years I realise... I am just a beginner, a new-born, in the Dharma.
Great Post. But what if Dharmic Enlightenment is actually pretty mundane and non esoteric? What if it is just understanding the four noble truths and their relations?
It certainly seems more abundant in the Buddha's time, yet today it is shrouded in mystery:)
Perhaps you were enlightened before and are not now?
All questions to ponder!:)
Mat
Afterward, seeking to attain Nibbana, one would concentrate more exclusively on eradication of the defilements by continuing to follow the path and to hone the edge of your mind in meditation, replacing ignorance with wisdom and culminating in the deathless.
If I may say, Right Understanding is better than ignorance, but Right Understanding gives way to direct experiential realization. This may be a vehicle sensitive matter. I am practicing in the Soen tradition, Where understanding is is seen as preliminary. The teacher points through understanding to realization. This realization is not too esoteric for words, just too simple. Too simple for thought, yet.. although it is what is prior to our proliferations, we need guidance to undress, so identified we are with our stories.
In Zen there is "Sudden Enlightenment- gradual cultivation" This means that, under the guidance of a teacher through very disciplined practice one has "the bottom fall out of the bucket" and realizes the fully awakened state. But because of ingrained habit energy, the momentum of Karma, our Identification with body-mind continues, and our tendancy to project spiritual fictions continues. So one must practice practice practice.
Like I said though, this is Zen, it is a different story in Theravada, which to be frank has a different "end" . The opening in Zen does have a similarity with Mahamudra I am told, however, Kensho is Kensho, the matter at hand is daily function.
There is a great story from Charlotte Joko Beck where a student in an interview says " This morning during sitting, There was the sound of a bird coming through the window, suddenly there was no me, no bird,.....only this". Joko Becks response was " Good....but what if instead of the sound of a bird, it was the sound of someones voice finding fault with you?
If my mother had wheels, she'd be a bus. Charlotte Joko Beck is not Pol Pot.
.... getting into a meeting of minds with a megalomaniacal mass murderer would be a very different occasion than hearing your Mother-in-law criticize you. What do you think?
OK, but lets be clear please that your original post pointed out this law of reverse enlightenment and you implied that people here were subject to it. You may well be right there.
But my question remains, where does you authority come from? You acknowlege a distinction in schools, you are compelled by history to accept that your "school" is a distinct distant cousin and descent of the earlier schools.
Take me for example, I believe (with good reasons) that enlightenment is mundane - deep in places and wonderful but ostensibly mundane and a bit of a "doh oh yea" realisation and suppose you think that that view is "reverse enlightenment".
Why do would you think that? I jsut dont see that.
I think the more esoteric Buddhists can be careful when trying to help others that they don't adopt the conceit of mystery to explain very matter of fact questions:)
There seems a big difference between these two claims:
"I am enlightenened! I know this because after a life of vispianna I have gazed into nothingness and seen the wheel of dharna turn and the fires of dukka burn"
And
"I am enlightened. This means I cannot doubt the three marks and I understand The four noble truths and how they condition experience. This is my only life, it is short and rare and I should live it maximising truth, peace and happiness."
I look forward to your thoughts:)
Mat
From reading Richard's posts I don't believes he sees it as some mystical experience at all. But shedding deeply ingrained habits and self-fabricated illusions is extremely difficult. Enlightenment isn't knowing the Truths-everyone knows deep down things are subject to anicca for example-it's realizing this true and not clinging to an illusion to the contrary. I understand the Three Marks but still cling... I still experience "greed/aversion" in everyday life.
Undoubtedly we're closer to Nibbana when we're born... After which the illusion just keeps being built upon.
You should also clarify that you feel Enlightenment is understanding the Truths and walking the path to freedom of dukkha. To this I'll only say that the Buddha never spoke of "enlightenment" anyway - he spoke of Nibbana-literally, "to put out." That is, when greed, aversion, and delusion cease to arise.
The OP is referring to prior to that. When such awakenings are confused with Full Enlightenment. All of us who practice with some determination have these awakening by one name or another, But I doubt whether anyone here has completely gone beyond self view in all circumstances.
...as far as esoterica is concerned. Once again whats awakened to is not too esoteric for words, just too simple. thats is why Zen emphasizes doing practice, rather than trying to figure it out.