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Two Types of Buddhist?
How about this for an idea that may propagate beneficial connection between Buddhist with divergent views.
Imagine we divide the buddhist world into two types of Buddhist:
The Scientific Buddhist who believes that Dharma and the universe operate according to closed and connected principles that start from simple truths which emerge into more complex truths which in tern condition human experience.
The Mystical Buddhist who believes that there are truths that are innacessable to the scientific heirachy of reality and these also condition human experience.
These two views can never ultimately engage in meaningful debate about which view is right; they both contain assumptions external to the views themselves.
One view has a faith that there is more than this. The other view has a faith that there is not more than this. Neither faith can refute the other. Trying is wasting time and bound only to make more negativity.
How does that sound as a notion?:)
Peace
Mat
Imagine we divide the buddhist world into two types of Buddhist:
The Scientific Buddhist who believes that Dharma and the universe operate according to closed and connected principles that start from simple truths which emerge into more complex truths which in tern condition human experience.
The Mystical Buddhist who believes that there are truths that are innacessable to the scientific heirachy of reality and these also condition human experience.
These two views can never ultimately engage in meaningful debate about which view is right; they both contain assumptions external to the views themselves.
One view has a faith that there is more than this. The other view has a faith that there is not more than this. Neither faith can refute the other. Trying is wasting time and bound only to make more negativity.
How does that sound as a notion?:)
Peace
Mat
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This discussion has been closed.
Comments
I wouldn't have said "mystical" buddhist, as this strikes me as a little belittling!
Other than that, I think it sounds great. But I hate to say it Mat, but it means you will also have to refrain from starting the discussions also... :cool:
Hi Nios
Maybe Mystical isn't the right word. Though I don't see that's its belittling, its just clearly establishes two distinct magesteria that on key issues simply dont overlam (see NOMA).
>>But I hate to say it Mat, but it means you will also have to refrain from starting the discussions also... :cool:
Well no, it just means we will all have to refrain from trying to refute the views of others that we cannot possibly refute.
Eg my take on the 12 niddanyas is completely up for debate, I may well be wrong etc etc...this is a point internal to Dharma. But my take on rebirth and someone else's belief in literal rebirth, well, no amount of debate can settle those different positions:)
Best wishes
Mat
This is why I said "refrain".
I'm less about faith these days, than trying to get a glimpse here and there of what IS. Sorry if that doesn't make a lot of sense.
But if one sees dharma as bigger than, and antecedent to, human experience I, think the question stands and perhaps the need for a distinction:)
"Such was the vision, the knowledge, the wisdom, the science..."
Dukkha!, Dukkha!, Dukkha!
Just thought I'd share that. I'm not interested in fouling around.
I cannot see why:)
I think by "Ridiculous" you mean "incompatible with your entrenched views"? Else what could you mean and why would you say it?
You're apparently failing peer review by seasoned scholars/practitioners in this discipline. I wonder how far you'd make it in any other academic endeavor? Was it you who claimed some academic standing? Hum?
Watching the monkey jump!!!
Go ahead let's see you jump!!
Translate: Shut up Mat:p People who have been studying Buddhist dogma longer than you... etc etc
Where do you get your authority from Brother Bob?
I fully acknowledge I have none, where is yours from?
>>>Watching the monkey jump!!!
I would rather be a monkey than a sheep:)
Sheep penned by the sheep-dog(ma)? ;p
>>>Go ahead let's see you jump!!
I am keeping pretty unattached from it now (Though I often slip!). Its philsopohcial, these questions interest me but they are one part of my personal practice, and for sure not the most important part:)
Mat
I wish to address all those others reading these threads and Matt's BS.
Please know that Matt is not a Buddhist. He has never had nor is he now engaged in any kind of training with a reputable teacher or lineage. It is apparent that his true interest and intention is not to really learn anything but to ridicule and express contempt for others.
I feel painful sadness and concern when I read Matt's words, sad because it's apparent that Matt is intellectually handicapped and incapable of correctly training in the Buddhadharma. And concerned that those folks, new to the Buddhadharma and perhaps impressionable, may be mislead and harmed by Matt's behavior.
Just so you know Matt; I'm going to give you my personal attention. I imagine you as a harmful object and will do all I can to neutralize your behavior.
So, go for it Mattie boy!!
You are definitely right about this Brother Bob.
If so let's do it!! My ducks are all in a row. How about you?
I claim to have been engaged in concentration and meditation training associated with the Buddhadharma for about 47 years. I've been engaged in serious dedicated training in other aspects of the Buddhdharma; including formal seminary training (where by the way I've been tested and peer reviewed for the correctness of my understanding) and monastic training for the past twenty years.
I am a highly intelligent individual (I.Q. tested at the top 1%) very literate, even considered by some of my Buddhist teachers and mentors to be too intellectual and scholarly. I have performed the requisite preliminary training to be admitted to the highest levels of training in the Buddhadharma and am considered by some to be a fairly good Buddhadharma instructor in my own right.
I'm very accustomed to conflict with people like you. I faced people like you in prison who in trying to intimate others would demand other's 'paperwork' to prove that they were not some low-life scumbag.
Also, you infer "sheep' I'll give you the contact information to many people who know me and you may ask them if I'm a 'sheep'
I think they'd tell you I'm far from that my boy, in fact, I'm considered a pretty dangerous individual, more a Tiger.
So, step up son! let's see you put verifiable credentials in this discipline on this forum. I'll provide anybody who needs to know with contact information to verify my credentials, if they will do the same.
My friends, family, loved ones, collegages, they know:)
You do not, assuming Bob:)
>>I'm imagining its the long-term pain and suffering you've already experienced in other areas of your life, due to this behavior, that led you to turn toward the Buddha's teachings to begin with.
No, in fact,. I was "trapped" (In a good way) in Sri lanka with not much to do but read about Dharma. Check out the book stores in colombo - it's pretty much Tom Clancy or Dharma!:)
It became evident to me that Dharma was truth, as the Buddha said. Not rebirth, Dharma:)
I believe they are very distinct.
>>>The sad trouble is that you brought the same old habits that are bringing you the same old results that you may have wished to eliminate in your life, to this endeavor also. It may be that you are so enslaved to these harmful habits that you cannot change at this time.
Lol... I wish you knew me as a person! You would find these very far from setting:)
What exactly is it you think i belive? (I note you done answer my questions, still I ask)
>>>Especially difficult is the assumption that you somehow know better than others and you have a mind so full of your own ideas and opinions that you can't receive any more information.
Again, wrong assumption. I am a Buddhist. I am certain as anything Dharma is truth and rebirth is false.
>>>I wish to address all those others reading these threads and Matt's BS.
I would much rather discuss my simple thoughts and ideas on simple Dharma than my deluded sad personality!
Its kinda funny:)
>>Please know that Matt is not a Buddhist.
I am in the sense I believe in Dharma and have practised the eightfold path for eight fold years(ish)
>>He has never had nor is he now engaged in any kind of training with a reputable teacher or lineage.
Frankly, my respect for teachers and lineages has plummeted from ambivalence to sheer amazement at the dogma that they must propagate since talking here. Its been enligtening for sure!
>>>It is apparent that his true interest and intention is not to really learn anything but to ridicule and express contempt for others.
You slander. Show me where i have ridiculed anyones views. I have at worst defended my views against patronising and arrogant dogma from many here.
>>I feel painful sadness and concern when I read Matt's words, sad because it's apparent that Matt is intellectually handicapped and incapable of correctly training in the Buddhadharma.
If belive in science and reason and Dharma not hidden mysticism is a handicap then I am a complete retard, I admit.
>>And concerned that those folks, new to the Buddhadharma and perhaps impressionable, may be mislead and harmed by Matt's behavior.
My only advise to them would be doubt everything and be your own light. certainly don't belive dogma, however it is presented.
>>Just so you know Matt; I'm going to give you my personal attention. I imagine you as a harmful object and will do all I can to neutralize your behavior.
Super, I will take you up on that. Thank you, would you like it in public or private? Could we skype perhaps? we can start from first principles and see where i am going wrong.
How do we start?
>>So, go for it Mattie boy!!
I am ready to:)
Mat
I have been studying Dharma for just eight years:) As I say, I am no expert. As to my IQ, no idea, never had it tested, sorry!:)
The great thing is, I don't think one needs to be a genius to see The Four Noble Truths:) Remeber, people became enlightened in the time of the buddha after just a "night in the potting shed" not after a life of deep mystcial training:)
I guess it must be a bit frustrating if you dedicte 47 years to the mystical and I come along and say that's not what I belive the buddha taught. I don't mean to offend, but that's the way it seems to me, and nobody so far has showing why I am wrong.
I would rather there was a mystical realm. Sadly, i am certain there isnt.
So, with respect to your better mind and understanding, I would like to take you up on your offer of help showing me my ignorances and delusions.
Can we Skype? My fingers hurt:)
Mat
this made me laugh.
There is absolutely no way this is true.
Matt has just virtually publically admitted that he is not truly a Buddhist and is in fact misrepresenting himself as one, by making some off the wall claim.
Matt have you, in fact, ever trained with a reputable teacher from any actual Buddhist lineage for more than a few days, at most? Have you taken Vinaya precepts from the Buddha Sangha or uphold them? If not, to claim to be a Buddhist is incorrect; even by the Buddha's standards.
Folks, again please do not be misled by this persons BS.
In any event going about declaring who is and isn't a Buddhist seems pretty arrogant and unhelpful. Frankly Bob, your antagonizing, mocking little outburst speaks volumes about your "real lineage-holding Buddhist practice." Mat never claimed to be representing anything and those who do are honestly deluded to think they actually speak on behalf of the Buddha.
While I find Mat's contribution to be entirely closeminded (I don't believe he's ever logged in without his fingers in his ears in fact) and for the sole purpose of ego inflation, he isn't harming anyone but himself. He is not threatening any teachings that we all know have proven themselves to be true and relevant to our practice. In fact you're only keeping his threads bumped to the top of the forum index for more to see.
Bob implied it with his recounting of my utter misery:)
>>>Mat never claimed to be representing anything and those who do are honestly deluded to think they actually speak on behalf of the Buddha.
You are right, I have no idea what the buddha said, nobody does, We can at best try to fit the pieces together ourselves.
>>>While I find Mat's contribution to be entirely closeminded (I don't believe he's ever logged in without his fingers in his ears in fact) and for the sole purpose of ego inflation, he isn't harming anyone but himself.
I am very sure I may come over as an egotisticial asshat, but that's not the case. I wont accept dogma as dharma, and so when the dogma keeps barking without any reason behind it, I keep responding, and sure, that is very ego, and thats my bad.. but my intentions are not ego based:)
>>>In fact you're only keeping his threads bumped to the top of the forum index for more to see.
Your right, if people focussed more on my dharmic questions rather than my forum "personal" that they construct then we would all be wasting much less time on "my threads".
I would prefer that, you will note the threads I start are not posed in controverial ways or antagonistically or dogmatically.
The controversy comes in when you try to ask, How come the Buddhism we hav today is like it is? Has something happened? What has changed since the time of The Buddha?
These are all valid questions that being told I'm wrong wont answers. The issue with buddhism is far far bigger than my ego pumped responses here:)
That's what I am interested in:)
Well wishes
Mat
Why? Sounds like segregation.
Wow! Is this considered to be Buddhist practice? No answer required, I'm out of this thread now.
.
Is drawing other's attention to the fact that Matt is not a Buddhist arrogant and unhelpful? Again we disagree, I imagine warning others against ingesting toxins, because they were not informed as very helpful. Matt in no way meets the standard for claiming the association/label of being a Buddhist.
I imagine stating that as beneficial to others who may imagine Matt as some kind of radical Buddhist when he is not - he's plainly not a Buddhist. Where I come from, albeit a very violent culture, claiming to be a member of some group that you're not part of may cost your life.
As far as your opinion of my character, Hum? how may I address that skillfully? Are you sure?
It's appears way to easy for malignant personalities to access these kind of forums and engage in harmful behavior.
I've decided to confront that behavior - to intentionally go ahead and jump in the foul mire with those who choose to engage in this behavior and have at it. Why, because I know how to handle this kind of stuff, I've been there many times before. Is this the 'Buddhist' way? I don't know. Is it harmful or helpful? I don't know? I'll let the results speak for themselves. Is this the most skillful way of handling this kind of stuff? I don't know. I'm not a nicey nice kind of guy. I'm willing to take the gloves off and get at it. I understand that in doing so I may not be upholding my vows to their highest standards. I do, although, have confidence in the use of expedient means in addressing challenging stuff. Please consider I've been trained in Zen/Chan and Tibetan schools, where there are precedents for working outside of our Vinaya vows. Believe me, I have been and I'll continue doing a lot contemplation and purification throughout this adventure.
Thank You for expressing your concern. I wish that you and all other's on this forum may understand my deepest intentions.
Will you please help me to know how to address the harmfulness I imagine being expressed here with skillful means by your own example?
i agree with this.
This forum needs moderation like Donald Trump needs a new hairdo.
I am certain of The Three Marks and The Four Noble truths.
I have been on the Eightfold Path for a number of years, morally, mentally, philosophcially. It is my life, it has changed my life more than anything.
I try diligently to practice Mindfulness in all daily tasks and meditation (Im not very good, I admit, I am a bit ADHD).
I am kind, compassionate and very honest.
I am far from perfect, but I try.
And the reason you so pompously say I am not a Buddhist is because of my (pretty standard) understanding of The Kalam Suttra and by rejection of the mystical, eg Rebirth?
But the thing is, Bob, I don't really care if I am a Buddhist:) Whatever that means. Its just labels. If I am going to call myself a Buddhist, then its clearly not a mystical Buddhist but a scientific one, which is what this thread, which has practically made you threaten me in public is about:)
>>Why, because I know how to handle this kind of stuff, I've been there many times before.
All you need do to shut me up on this is not threaten me but just tell me why you know you are right and I am wrong.
>>>I'm willing to take the gloves off and get at it.
Well your not, you offered help and then ignore my acceptance in public and PM.
Be straight, whatever you are.
So, will you help show me where I am wrong like you said you would? Public, private, skype, email, text, whatever.
You said you would, be honourable at least:)
Mat
I know that most of you don't know me, but I own the site, and while I'm not often around, I do come in to deal with stuff like this once in a while.
While we have no hard-and-fast rules about conduct here, we do require one thing above all else: respect. Please respect each other and yourselves enough not to act like children or buffoons on the site.
When discussions degenerate into nothing more than pissing contests about who is a better buddhist than someone else, it's time to close it and move on.
Enjoy the space, enjoy each other. Have fun.