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No False speech precept (taking refuge)
Hi all!
How is this precept generally interpreted in the tibetan traditions (other traditions as well)? I been planning to take refuge for a long time now, but this precept has been stopping me from doing so. I can't honestly take such a wow, without feeling like i am already breaking breaking it when taking it. As i don't necessary agreed philosofically or practically with the strictest interpretation of it. That is, no lying period!
This is as much a philosofical question as it is a practical.
Sometimes people lie because they really have to or they lie just out of convenience or politeness. I can't see that lying is always wrong in every situation. Sometimes telling the truth is worse than lying in my opinion.
Please share your insights. What is your views on this precept? What is your teachers views?
Feel free to point out online material or books if you feel inclined to do so.
Also i am interested in hearing the views concerning this precept from the point of view of all traditions and individuals.
I wan't to add that i do believe in the virtue of honesty and that i beleive it is the intention what counts.
/Namaste
How is this precept generally interpreted in the tibetan traditions (other traditions as well)? I been planning to take refuge for a long time now, but this precept has been stopping me from doing so. I can't honestly take such a wow, without feeling like i am already breaking breaking it when taking it. As i don't necessary agreed philosofically or practically with the strictest interpretation of it. That is, no lying period!
This is as much a philosofical question as it is a practical.
Sometimes people lie because they really have to or they lie just out of convenience or politeness. I can't see that lying is always wrong in every situation. Sometimes telling the truth is worse than lying in my opinion.
Please share your insights. What is your views on this precept? What is your teachers views?
Feel free to point out online material or books if you feel inclined to do so.
Also i am interested in hearing the views concerning this precept from the point of view of all traditions and individuals.
I wan't to add that i do believe in the virtue of honesty and that i beleive it is the intention what counts.
/Namaste
0
Comments
Palzang
this is the common view held by most teachers.
Thanx alot!
My take on this precept is that they are more absolute and not simply spiritual or philosophical.
If you think about the karmic implications of deception, even if "successful" it will feedback into one's internal moral and mental life and create more negativity, which in turn will create more... and onwards.
As well as the karmic impact of lies the lies will also soften the tolerance to tell more lies (especially if the lies are seen as "successes") which will feedback even more... and more.
I think the deceptive everyday aspect of "wrong speech" should never be underestimated, lieing is incredibly damaging, even if the lies are trivial.
I think the quote from Merlin in Boorman's excalliber movie fits well here:
"When a man lies, he murders some part of the world."
Salome
Mat
He gave us a great deal to consider and think about, in his Four Noble Truths, Eightfold path and 5 Precepts, but I think if we were to be able to give our full concentration to all four, all eight and all five, we would mentally tie ourselves into a Gordian Knot of such proportions that we would go insane very quickly....
Remember the adage:
"He who deliberates fully before taking each step, will spend his entire life on one leg."
Each Step along the eightfold path should be deliberated - but not to the extent that it prevents you from putting the other foot down.
Remember every spoke on the Wheel is dependent on the others.... they cannot be taken in isolation, just as you can not take every component of a road and isolate it.....
The Five precepts are similarly mutually supportive....
If you look at the First precept, it states that we endeavour to refrain from doing harm to any sentient being.
That includes ourself, and the following four are all self-harming practices....so the One, underlines the four.....
But taking these 13 Guidelines and practising them all as individual disciplines, would drive us crazy.
so, as I was advised by a wise monk and a bikkhuni too.....
Simplify.
Be Mindful.
That is all.
it is not either necessary nor skilful to tick off every morsel of advice the buddha gave us, and keep a close eye on every one individually..... That would not help us move forward. it would in fact keep us firmly stuck, stressed and in a mental turmoil.
So there you have it.
This Gordian knot can be cleaved by a Simpler way.
Mindfulness.
Just my two, as ever.....
be well.
Palzang
I understand your POV that sometimes we have to resort to white lies in situations where we consider such action will be for the greater good; for example, if our intention is to avoid hurting someones' feelings by telling a "minor" or "harmless" lie. But ultimately, the decision rests with each one of us to make a wise and wholesome choice.
Also remember, many people (me included) take the precepts on a daily basis.... so even if we slip up now and again... we are renewing the taking of the precepts on an ongoing basis.
"Always tell the truth, but never tell an unkind truth"
said J. Krishnamurti, who wasn't a Buddhist ... but I find this piece of instruction fits in well with my Buddhist commitment to honesty.
There is no other teachings, religion, philosophy, meditational techniques that i agreed with more than Buddhism. But the ethics seems to be a big obstacle for me (5 precepts). I am not sure i can think like you guys, also MatSalted ( but in a diferent way ).
Can i really make my own definition of the precepts when i take them? Would feel little bit like watered down buddhism to me, buddhism light tailored for weakminded westerners like me. j/k no offence to anyone (this is what is going on in my head right now). Like i am just making excuses to not changing my samsaric habits etc. On the otherhand i am not much for absolutes when it comes to ethics. I am opposed to dogma and wery unconservative ( in a way and in a way not ). When it comes to ethics i am more of a "situationist". It's hard for me to accept something that i am not fully in agreement with. The more i think about the 5 precepts the less i feel like accepting them (as absolutes). This kind of morality is too simplistic for me and makes no sense intellectually. I can find critique to all of the precepts actually. Im not sure if i should even post my opinions about this in detail, because i don't wan't anyone to be affected/missguided from reading this.
I also see the value in folowing theese precepts strictly and interpreting them in the most litteral manner.
My point is that this is all relative truth and it's newer going to be perfect in the way that you can say X is wrong and Y is right.
I can definately accept them as training's and if i would be free to define the absolutes of them myself i could follow them to 100% litterarly.
My philosofy is something like this thou. It depends on the teacher who gives you the refuge. What is his/her definition. If the teacher sees them as absolutes and the precepts as karmic amplifyers where following them you gain more merit than ever before, but breaking them causes you even more severe negative karma than before taking refuge. Then this is going to affect me in a certain way karmically. You reap what you sow, becuase i made a promise to do this and not that with definition X and am i really in liberty afterwards to make my own definitions and folow them as it suit me? I wish ...
On the other hand if i take refuge from/with (refuge from? don't know the lingo here haha) a teacher who has a diferent view, more in agreement with mine for example. Then different karma ...
Or if my teacher just gives me refuge and i make the 5 wows and he cuts a lock from my hair. Without explaining the definitions so precicely or at all ...
What kind of situation was it for you guys when you took refuge?
The 5 precepts are like an obstacle standing in the way for me to practice Dharma seriously.
Basicly i just wan't to get this over with so i will be able to recieve the empowerments and permissions for the practices that would help me progress further in my meditation practice and and transform afflictions and so forth.
If not i am afraid i'm going to be stuck in the book fase for ever, reading and doing some halfassed zazen/shamatha practice by myself without proper guidance and benefits of Guru yoga, nGondro etc.
Check this Karma Kagyu definition for example. http://www.kagyu.org/ktd/resources/articles/PDFs/Lay%20Precepts.pdf
What would happen if you take all the 5 and you are not in a relationship at the moment. Doomed to celibacy?!
Palzang
I linked the pdf to illustrate a common view held in tibetan buddhism.
Also as far as i know, only Karma Kagyu lets you choose like that.
Another question arises:
Say i took refuge in with Karma Kagyu and managed to find 2 of the precepts and their definitions acceptable. So i wen't on and took refuge and 2 precepts.
What happens when i go and take say Kalachakra where they give you refuge again to renew the 5 precepts. Refuge (and the 5 precepts i asume) is required to recieve permission to practice Kalachakra. This way all 5 gets uppdated and i end up with more precepts than i was bargaining for?
Food for thought or maby poison?
/Namaste
Your view is very balanced and sound imo. I like this attitude better.
But if my teacher (i don't have any) at who's feet i take refuge in the near future holds a more traditional/conservative view where the precepts are like karmic amplifiers and so forth as i explained above. While myself holding secretly a more relaxed view like your's and others on this forum. Wouldn't it then be arrogant, unwise and possibly even karmically negative to take refuge with/from (how do you say it?
Maby i am too uptight and superstitious about the precepts but atleast i wan't to be honest about a important thing like taking refuge.
Or maby i am just pushing it?
/Namaste
Palzang
Weren't my intention at all.
Forgive me, i newer been good with expressing myself in either text nor speech.
It was clear to me that it was not your personal view you are presenting here but simply the view you learned from your teachers and and their teachers and so on.
What i was trying to convey is that there seems to me be a more stricter interpretation of the lay precepts. Where they should be taken more as absolutes and interpreted and practiced as monastics do. With the karmic amplifyer thing i been going on about in this thread. Wouldn't there also be slight differences between schools of of thought from and maby even whitin the different lineages?
/bow
I am sure there is a practice that is suitable to "where you are"... For example if I am preparing to be a doctor and I am in highschool I should work as appropriate to me getting good grades and participating in extra-curricular activities. It wouldn't be necessary for me to pressure myself to study advanced medical texts at that time.
But he's telling it to you !"like it is".....
What I would say to you is - you're over-thinking this.
Truly, you are.
There is a teaching that states that if you tighten your guitar string too tightly, or tighten it so that it still remains too loose, either way, the resulting note will be distorted and discordant, and will not sound sweet to the ear.
The guitar string must be tightened to the correct tension.
neither too loose, nor too tight.
Same with your thinking and practice.
Everything in moderation.
Including Moderation.
The Middle Way.
Don't beat yourself up about this.
The 5 precepts entail effort, leading to success.
they don't entail success from the beginning.
Why do you think it took the Buddha 6 years to get this?
Because he had to walk the talk, and take lessons from his own errors, and achievements.
He tried everything, to see what worked and what didn't.
He neither demands, nor expects you to just 'get it' and do it all in one fell swoop.
Relax, please.
If you're not comfortable taking Refuge, then don't Take Refuge.
That doesn't make you any less a person. It makes you thoughtful and considerate.
it doesn't set you back, and it doesn't mean you're not committed.
I took refuge at home, in the privacy of my own sitting room, in a small ceremony devised by me, with just me present. This was.... oh, I lose count of how many years ago....
I officially Took Refuge, in a Monastery, in 2008.
Learn a bit more about Buddhism, study, read the suttas and learn the teachings.
be comfortable and relaxed within your own self.
Don't force anything, and don't do things out of a sense of obligation, or feeling that really, you should.
Chill!
It would be silly to accept anything in Buddhism or anything else on face value. That is how dogma gets to have a bite worse than its bark!:)
Always remember this when you study Buddhism:
"Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing; nor upon tradition; nor upon rumor; nor upon what is in a scripture; nor upon surmise; nor upon an axiom; nor upon specious reasoning; nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over; nor upon another's seeming ability; nor upon the consideration, 'The monk is our teacher.'"
>>>Can i really make my own definition of the precepts when i take them?
It is important that individual Buddhist ethics are not about moral absolutes but hinderences to practice. Ie, actions that harm no one.
For example, there is nothing inherently wrong in Buddhism about being a drunkard, but simply, you will never get far down the path if you are.
So no you cant make your definitions but you can look to dharma and understand why such and such a precept fits with dharma. I think its all pretty self evident!:)
>>>On the otherhand i am not much for absolutes when it comes to ethics.
There are no absolutes, but this doesn't mean there are not foundational morals.
When you see emptiness and impermiance then i think you can answer for yourself questions like "Why is compassion good" and "why is greed bad." have a go!:)
>>>The more i think about the 5 precepts the less i feel like accepting them (as absolutes).
Good, keep thinking about them, but within the wider/deeper dharmic framework. It all fits together perfectly I feel:)
>>>I can find critique to all of the precepts actually.
Again, good, try to rip down the bastions. Then when you see that it cant really be done you will be far more certain of the reality and reason for the precepts. this is the effect of the universal doubt the Buddha encourages, it shows dharma's certainty clearly:)
>>Im not sure if i should even post my opinions about this in detail, because i don't wan't anyone to be affected/missguided from reading this.
We all have our own ways of seeing dharma, i wouldnt worry that your opinions will do any damage here, and if they do, then maybe we are in the wrong in the first place?
>>>My point is that this is all relative truth and it's newer going to be perfect in the way that you can say X is wrong and Y is right.
Your statement smuggles in absolute moral truths, which you are not entitled to do within the dharmic framework:)
>>>Or if my teacher just gives me refuge and i make the 5 wows and he cuts a lock from my hair. Without explaining the definitions so precicely or at all ...
Ultimatly, even if we all had Lord Buddha himself as our teacher, ultimately we can only ever teach ourselves...
"When you yourself know..."
Good luck!
Mat