Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Examples: Monday, today, last week, Mar 26, 3/26/04
Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.

stern Shugden Society's A Great Deception

edited March 2010 in Philosophy
Hi,
Something new from the thriving Shugden activists :)

Check this out at: http://www.agreatdeception.com/book/toc/

Contents

PART ONE: The Tibetan Situation Today
Chapter 1: Lama Policy
Chapter 2: Reting Lama – How he chose the false Dalai Lama
Chapter 3: A Dictator
Chapter 4: A Hypocrite
Chapter 5: The Ban on the Practice of Dorje Shugden: a Chronicle of Events
Chapter 6: Newspaper and Magazine Articles


PART TWO: The Dalai Lama of Tibet – Unravelling the Myth

Chapter 7: Mixing Religion and Politics
Dharma and Politics
The Meaning of 'Mixing Religion and Politics'
The Tibetan System of Government
Oracles, Dough Balls and Divinations

Chapter 8: The History and Institution of the Dalai Lamas
Je Tsongkhapa and the Ganden Tradition
The First Four Dalai Lamas
The Fifth Dalai Lama
The Sixth and Seventh Dalai Lamas
The Eighth to Twelfth Dalai Lamas
The Thirteenth Dalai Lama

Chapter 9: The Fourteenth Dalai Lama
His Early Life and Education
Embracing Communism
The Myths Surrounding his Escape from Tibet
Political Views and Failures
The Issue of Tibetan Independence
Negotiations with Beijing
The Panchen Lama Affair
The Issue of Democratization
How the Dalai Lama's Failures Led to His Ban on Dorje Shugden

Chapter 10: The Implementation, Effects and Alleged Reasons for the Ban on the Practice of Dorje Shugden

Chapter 11: Open Secrets concerning the Fourteenth Dalai Lama
The Recognition of the Fourteenth Dalai Lama
The Illusion of Government
The Dalai Lama's Brother, Gyalo Dondrub
The Dudjom Rinpoche Affair
The Assassination of Gungtang Tsultrim
The Karmapa Affair
The Politics of the Kalachakra Initiations
Defamation of Je Phabongkhapa
The Dalai Lama's involvement with the CIA and the Tibetan Guerrillas
The Attempted Coup in Bhutan
The Tibetan Arms Trade
The Hypocrisy over Taiwan
The Dalai Lama's fascination with war and Nazism
The Friendship with Shoko Asahara
Incitements to Murder
How did the Dalai Lama receive the Nobel Peace Prize?

Chapter 12: Judging the Dalai Lama by his Actions
What has the Dalai Lama achieved?
'Free Tibet' – Where has all the money gone?
Who is the real Dalai Lama?

Appendix 1: 1959 Correspondence between the Dalai Lama and General Tan Kuan-san

Appendix 2: The Mongoose-Canine Letter

Anybody read it yet?

Comments

  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited February 2010
    23m7tjd.jpg
  • edited February 2010
    hey pathseeker,
    Thanks for starting a thread on A Great Deception book. Wow you really took time out to write out all the chapters and contents, I salute you!

    Actually, it's quite interesting just to study the contents of the book if we're going to share our views and review it. I had started out reading the book hoping to learn more about Dorje Shugden and I was quite quickly disappointed to find out that it was all a big political rhetoric that bashed the Dalai Lama at every given opportunity.

    There's a lot of information, resources and very good research which shows that the writers really invested a lot of effort to look through different sources for information. However, the presentation of it was very disappointing and just far too emotional and belligerent to be taken seriously. I felt like they were forcing their views down my throat the entire way through it and it became very tiresome very quickly. I felt that the information itself - with its credible sources - was convincing enough but the rhetoric, overly-emotive language and cliches undermined their efforts and made the whole issue very petty and 150% political... which is a shame considering we are trying to raise awareness of how good the Dorje Shugden practice actually is.

    Actually, they shoot themselves in the foot because any new person reading that book will think to themselves, "yah, well everything that they say about DS practitioners is true because look - here they are again being militant, aggressive and belligerent; here they are attacking another spiritual teacher ( the Dalai Lama ) and being political and damaging". A new person may be inclined to give up on Dharma altogether because they read about how "bad" the dalai lama is and they also see how petty and belligerent the DS practitioners are... in the face off between DS and DL, both sides are presented badly in the book..

    What a disappointment. I think that in really "protesting" the ban against dorje shugden and in promoting our great this enlightened, sacred protector really is, perhaps we should begin to adopt a different tactic, which is to stop going on and on and on endlessly about all the wrong things that Dalai Lama is doing and promote instead the good things + benefits of doing dorje shugden.

    What do you guys think?
  • RenGalskapRenGalskap Veteran
    edited February 2010
    pathseeker wrote: »
    Anybody read it yet?
    I read through the web site when you first posted it. As theredniece points out, you're shooting yourself in the foot by posting this stuff. Most of it is irrelevant to the human rights issues, and we Westerners are really only concerned about the human rights issues. Furthermore, the obviously partisan tone tends to alienate people who might otherwise be sympathetic.

    Learn from NamelessRiver's example. She doesn't care whether anyone propitiates DS or not. She doesn't care whether the DL is the nominal head of the Gelugpas or not. She doesn't care who the DL is buddies with. She's only concerned that people have the right to worship as they choose. By concentrating on human rights violations, i.e. violence against DS worshippers, she's been a very effective advocate.
  • edited February 2010
    REN GALSKAP:
    that's a good point.
    I think if we really want to help those who are suffering from the ban we need to look more tangible and practically at HOW WE CAN HELP THEM in an immediate way. I think that people do get too carried away on wanting "to be right" and to prove that their side is bad or not, good or not, correct or incorrect. Then everyone spends a lot of time just "pointing out" what should or shouldn't have been done, how bad so-and-so is for having said said this-and-that. And in the meantime, the situation doesn't really get better...

    So I'd be interested to know also - what does everyone think we can do on a practical level that can really help DS practitioners, especially those who are being persecuted and attacked for their practice? For those of us who live far away from these places, we can't physically be there to help them for example, so WHAT CAN WE DO? I have thought about this often and often come back to the conclusion that the best for now is to draw on the good old saying that the pen is sometimes mightier than the sword, so I view my contribution to the forums as one little drop in the ocean.

    I do agree with you however that what we post should be more than merely just going around n around lamenting what Dalai has or hasn't done, or which side is more right than the other etc ad nauseum! Perhaps one way is to look at a more positive side, and generate a more positive energy towards this whole issue, which is to look at the benefits, growth and practices of this deity, rather than to look at what "the other side" is "doing wrong".
  • FyreShamanFyreShaman Veteran
    edited February 2010
    The real focus of the Shugden issue, as was pointed out above, is the right of people to religious freedom. It might have been more interesting if, instead of dredging up the history, there was an explanation of who actually owns the monasteries, who has the power to determine what is legal in India, and what are the humanitarian and legal issues affecting the expelled monks, such as their citizenship, ID cards, travel documents etc.

    This is not just a victimless change of policy. The TGIE has been requested by the Delhi High Court to prove that it is now issuing the expelled monks with the documents they need, without which they were homeless and had no access to food or travel.

    I've satisified myself that I've seen enough evidence of what happened and why, and I'm afraid the book appeared far too late to be of use to prevent the damage or help the victims.

    One thing for sure, Shugden practice has continued, the Dalai Lama has not suffered illness as a consequence, and those organisations performing the practice, like some Gelug monasteries and also the NKT, are thriving. In fact, the practice may even have been given a boost - certainly many practitioners I know are far more determined to protect and preserve it. ;)
  • edited February 2010
    Yeshe wrote: »

    One thing for sure, Shugden practice has continued, the Dalai Lama has not suffered illness as a consequence, and those organisations performing the practice, like some Gelug monasteries and also the NKT, are thriving. In fact, the practice may even have been given a boost - certainly many practitioners I know are far more determined to protect and preserve it. ;)

    I think it's really interesting that you say that because yes, in fact, Dorje Shugden practice does seem to be growing exponentially in the world now. If nothing else, it has become the most well known deity in the media LOL. There are reports that the practice is flourishing very much in China - some people may say that that is a political movement but I don't think so. Not all Chinese people are political - some of them need help and wish to practice also.

    Globally, both Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden have been gaining exposure to the world in a way that would not be equalled if not for this controversy. I like what you said that it has made many "far more determined to protect and preserve it". I'd like to believe that it'll also make other people more curious as to what this is all about and so, in an indirect way, lead them eventually onto practice. No publicity is bad publicity, after all, eh? ;)

    I also think that one thing good that has arisen out of all this is a "new generation" of teachers and centres that have broken away from the mainstream and are upholding the practices and lineages with a lot of strength in their own way - such as NKT, Gangchen Rinpoche's centres, Sekong Tritul Rinpoche's centres and of course, Serpom & Shar Gaden monasteries.

    I believe it is them that will pave the way for when the ban finally dies off (or is lifted); They will have established the practices in many places by then, setting the stage for DS and je tsongkhapa's lineage to fully flourish. Future looks bright! I do wonder if it's not Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden playing an elaborate masterminded game that will bring much growth in dharma and benefit in the long term/bigger picture which we perhaps cannot see or understand yet.

    following this train of thought, there's a really good posting by user "tk" on the dorjeshugden.com forums entitled "why dorje shugden has to be the bad guy" which looks logically at the inconsistencies of both the dalai lama and dorje shugden... leading to a conclusion that they may in fact be working hand in hand to bring the dharma to greater heights. Do take a read, it's very interesting and presents many very valid points.
  • FyreShamanFyreShaman Veteran
    edited February 2010
    I've heard the explanation before that HHDL may be using 'skillful means' in order to encourage Dorje Shugden practice. We may nenver know.

    I've been reading Geshe Kelsang's books for years and recently Pabongka's 'Liberation in the Palm of Your Hand' as delivered by Trijang Rinpoche. I find it impossible that these teachers would be mistaken about this issue. Good job too, as I have samaya with my root guru.

    That aspect of the whole issue, samaya, may add strength to the argument that HHDL is not breaking his samaya with Trijang Rinpoche if he has the intention of encouraging Shugden practice. Hmmmm. ;)
  • edited February 2010
    Where we are, we can only speculate what HHDL true intentions are. I cannot make sense of the controversies and rather choose to refrain from critisizing HHDL. Afterall, HHDL has been the "face" for Tibetan Buddhism. What will be revealed when the curtain is drawn at the end of the day. I do feel for the many who have suffered due to the ban. Let's create the right causes for the ban to be removed. One of the ways is to stay united, beware of creating any schisms.

    peace
  • not1not2not1not2 Veteran
    edited February 2010
    I'd like to take this moment to welcome all the NKT people who have joined up specifically to flood our site with NKT threads.

    That aside, I don't really have any personal issues with them other than how disruptive they've been to a couple of forums I've been on. Anyway, let's talk about buddhism already. How many DS threads do we really need started by the same people?

    Try posting something positive or constructive that is Buddhist related and maybe we can move forward.

    Thanks
    _/\_
  • FyreShamanFyreShaman Veteran
    edited February 2010
    ''Try posting something positive or constructive that is Buddhist related ''.

    Barely disguised insults don't help on a Buddhist forum in my experience.

    I don't know of any NKT folowers who have 'flooded' this site. However, it is not surprising that some of them will want to discuss Buddhism within the NKT.

    As for positive Buddhist topics, many see the spread of Shugden practice as positive and Buddhist.

    Most forums have been 'flooded' with the eSangha diaspora, a site which banned several Buddhist organisations, from NKT to Zen, in a shameful way. I wonder if you commented about them in the same way?

    I was unaware that there was a limit on the number of threads which could be started relating to a specific school or sect, or even topic. Rebirth and Vegetarianism, for example, seems to pop up quite often, as does HHDL.

    As the site has no stated limit on threads, please go ahead and start a few dozen and put the small number of 'NKT' threads into a less prominent position, rather than moaning that NKT followers have been active enough to start their own.

    There is of course the option for you not to post in threads you deem as 'NKT', or even bother looking at them. ;)

    namaskar
  • not1not2not1not2 Veteran
    edited February 2010
    Look, this subject has been beaten to death in many, many places around the internet. It's a contentious issue and it would always draw new members who only posted on DS-related threads. There are currently 3 active threads discussing the EXACT SAME THING right now and more than a couple of posters who have only been posting in those threads. This is not exactly the first time this has happened. There are a number of controversial topics where you will see brand new members joining just to post and never comment on any other threads.

    I also know that there is a vast amount of information out there that is not so friendly to the NKT that is not being presented in these threads. I don't want them to be posted, as they are not so nice and will just drag the ugliness back out into the light and I don't think conflict is a good for anyone in this regard. I am perfectly willing to put all that aside and welcome every Buddhist on this board and in general, but seeing multiple active threads on this topic is making the likelihood of contention greater.

    Anyway, my point is, "Ok, so join the forum already." DS is a singular issue and I'd love to hear input on the vast wealth of Buddhist practices and subjects beyond it. Not saying there is any limit to threads on a single given topic, but seriously, join in on other threads too. I don't have any control or say over this board, but I'm seeing a pattern I've seen before and I was pointing that out.

    In regard to your 'barely disguised insults' comment, these threads are about the controversy of DS practice, not about Dharma itself. I'm not saying anything along the lines that DS practice itself isn't Dharma related. So, you are projecting the insult there as none was intended in the sense you've implied. The only thing close to an insult was to the new posters who haven't introduced themselves and haven't really commented on anything else in the entire forum.
  • FyreShamanFyreShaman Veteran
    edited February 2010
    I would agree that if there are several threads discussing the same topic, normal practice would be to contact a Mod and ask for them to be merged, or one kept and two locked.

    I sense your frustration and to some extent share it. The more usual pattern of 'flogging a dead horse' is that a newbie innocently asks about their local NKT class and it sparks dozens of posts which can make a Mods life a nightmare due to their tone and content. This is why some forums have banned the topic - aside from eSangha, the few others who have banned it are not being partisan IMHO, just unwilling to be faced with the same old flame wars to moderate - it also drives members away.

    I also agree that discussing practice is much more agreeable, but this thread is in a subforum about Current Events. A new book, play or film is an 'event' covered by news media, and the expulsion of the monks and the court case would fit here.

    On another Buddhist forum I visit, there is a small sub-forum exclusively for NKT practice and information, with discussion only of practice - anything else is firmly relocated to a suitable section of the site.

    Perhaps if someone starts a new thread covering old ground, in the future it should just be merged with what already exists, but the problem is that unless it is a 'sticky' an old thread disappears down the list and has to be resurrected, sometimes many months later.


    If anyone, NKT followers included, posts in an inappropriate way or in the wrong sub-forum it's easy enough to ask for action. ;)
  • edited February 2010
    Yikes. Not1Not2, I hope i have not offended you or anyone else by posting in the wrong place. I had thought that this thread is related to topic on Dorje Shugden?

    Yeshe, I appreciate the tips you have provided..but not too sure how it works yet. I'll poke around. I do think NKT is doing a great job and I respect Geshe Kelsang very much. However, I am not from NKT and have only well wishes for them.
  • FyreShamanFyreShaman Veteran
    edited February 2010
    steve j wrote: »
    Yikes. Not1Not2, I hope i have not offended you or anyone else by posting in the wrong place. I had thought that this thread is related to topic on Dorje Shugden?

    Yeshe, I appreciate the tips you have provided..but not too sure how it works yet. I'll poke around. I do think NKT is doing a great job and I respect Geshe Kelsang very much. However, I am not from NKT and have only well wishes for them.

    Well, according to at least one person here, you are guilty of being an NKT member by posting in support on this thread - not that anyone bothered to ask before launching their crusade. If they had asked, it would seem on this thread many are not NKT at all but support their position. ;)

    I have attended classes and received empowerments from a wide range of gurus, but spent a decade or so with the NKT - enough to know that most of the attacks on them derive from one superstitious and politically ambitious source. ;)
  • edited February 2010
    Hi all,
    I too apologise if I have offended anyone in any way with my posting. However, as contentious as this issue about Dorje Shugden may it, it is one that is affecting many thousands, if not millions of Buddhist practitioners around the world. It is very helpful and supportive to me personally to be able to find a space to discuss this. So far, I had found it very encouraging and I am enjoying the discussions a lot here. I feel that as long as there are no attacks on anyone (and there shouldn't be, in the spirit of Buddhism!) then there is nothing wrong in having a topic about something that is very current and relevant in the Buddhist world.

    I am not from NKT either. I have my own teacher and centre, which also practices Dorje Shugden. I would like to clarify that not everyone who is a DS practitioner is from NKT or WSS.

    Also, i'd like to add that I have found discussions about this issue / controversy about DS & Dalai Lama useful because it actually opens up many other topics within Dharma, such as the questions of our relationship with our teachers, samaya, lineage, practice, refuge and how to handle difficult situations such as this within a Dharmic context. I hope that it would lend some insight for other Buddhist practitioners, even those who are really involved or affected by this DS issue.

    Anyway, I do appreciate the discussion here, and I actually really look forward to hearing different views on the subject. I think that's being very Buddhist, isn't it? Because the very spirit of Buddhism to learn through enquiry and debate :)
  • FyreShamanFyreShaman Veteran
    edited February 2010
    Samaya in this context is a core issue. HHDL and GKG had samaya with Trijang Rinpoche with respect to Dorje Shugden. Breaking that samaya is more harmful to HHDL than anything Shugden may be accused of doing.

    To break samaya with a root guru is damaging beyond measure. ;)
  • edited February 2010
    I thank you for your suggestions.
    not1not2 wrote: »
    Look, this subject has been beaten to death in many, many places around the internet. It's a contentious issue and it would always draw new members who only posted on DS-related threads. There are currently 3 active threads discussing the EXACT SAME THING right now and more than a couple of posters who have only been posting in those threads. This is not exactly the first time this has happened. There are a number of controversial topics where you will see brand new members joining just to post and never comment on any other threads.
    <O:p</O:p
    <O:p</O:p
    <O:p</O:p
    This issue concerns millions of Shugden practitioners, and their families and the whole Tibetan Buddhist community because it is related to the Dalai Lama. So 3 threads in a forum is TOO MUCH? Many people are killed and physically hurt, death threats received etc because of this conflicts, and their families are ostracised, monks being alienated and eventually had to leave their monasteries. I think this is a BIG issue. I am quite new here and didn't participate in previous threads so perhaps to me I find this issue quite new here in this forum. I'm sorry if this has been discussed many times before but I didn't find one active thread that discuss the issues I want to discuss. <O:p</O:p
    <O:p</O:p
    By the way, this thread is about a book published by WSS and people’s opinion on the BOOK and the claims of the book, different from other Shugden threads. <O:p</O:p
    <O:p</O:p
    I started this thread to see what people actually think of the book and to learn more about the truth of the arguments in the book. It’s like getting book reviews. <O:p</O:p
    <O:p</O:p
    If you don’t like this thread, I encourage you to spend your precious time posting on other threads , perhaps your view might help to increase their faith or knowledge in Buddhism. I don't think we’re discussing the exact same thing because we are not, well at least my intention when I started was not that. <O:p</O:p
    <O:p</O:p
    You mentioned that “there are a number of controversial topics where you will see brand new members joining just to post and never comment on any other threads”. Perhaps these are issues that are really bugging them. For example, you will never see me post any opinion on Zen Buddhism, because I have no knowledge of it. We are encouraged to focus and study on our own tradition, and not try to be a World Buddhist scholar who could comments on a variety of topics and traditions. It’s better we focus on things we know rather than things we don’t know and mislead other people. Don’t you think so?

    For example, I've seen on forums where people claimed that the Dalai Lama is the Head of Gelugpa, which is not the case. The Head of Gelugpa who has just completed his term, the 101st Gaden Tripa (now emeritus and called Gaden Trisur) has just quit Gaden Shartse Monastery and joined a newly formed Shugden Monastery Shar Gaden. That is HUGE piece of news for Tibetan Government In Exile and all the Gelugpa-related centres in the world, e.g. the NKT, FPMT, Gangchen Rinpoche's centres, centres which students of the previous Trijang Rinpoche & Zong Rinpoche started, etc.<O:p</O:p
    <O:p</O:p
    <O:p</O:p
    <O:p</O:p
    I also know that there is a vast amount of information out there that is not so friendly to the NKT that is not being presented in these threads. I don't want them to be posted, as they are not so nice and will just drag the ugliness back out into the light and I don't think conflict is a good for anyone in this regard.
    <O:p</O:p
    Why not? I am sure the moderators would agree with me that a forum is a place to discuss conflicting ideas or issues so that we can learn. I don’t mind learning about not-so-friendly information about NKT because I think they are very successful and have brought so many people to the Dharma. If there are any “ugly” issue, may be we can all learn from it. Facts are facts and we shouldn’t be ashamed of it, unless you are going to post baseless accusations or rumours and people bad-mouthing NKT. <O:p</O:p
    <O:p</O:p
    <O:p</O:p
    Anyway, my point is, "Ok, so join the forum already." DS is a singular issue and I'd love to hear input on the vast wealth of Buddhist practices and subjects beyond it.
    <O:p></O:p>
    I hope you join and contribute to the other threads because you seemed to be very knowledgeable. As for me, because I am not trained or studied any other tradition apart from Tsongkhapa’s tradition, I feel I do not have the authority on sharing my ideas on that. And I am an avid fan of this Shugden issue because it affects SO MANY PEOPLE around the world and is the focus of all movers and shakers of Tibetan Buddhism. There are so many exciting updates in other forums, and I hope this forum would be a platform to discuss this issue as well. <O:p</O:p
    <O:p</O:p
    <O:p</O:p
    Not saying there is any limit to threads on a single given topic, but seriously, join in on other threads too.
    <O:p</O:p
    I’d love to join other forums too, but unfortunately due to the nature of my work, I am unable to. Sometimes it’s days gone past before I check on the thread that I started or last post. Also, I have seen many posts in forums that people post for the sake of posting or posted irrelevant comments just to maintain their presence. It’s very painful for me when I read comments like that in a thread :P Hence, I personally do not feel comfortable to post in threads which I have no authority to speak about. Of course if you have threads about studying the Lamrim, or Je Tsongkhapa’s history, and who is the head of Gelugpa, what are the top Gelugpa monasteries, may be I could contribute.<O:p</O:p
    <O:p</O:p
    <O:p</O:p
    <O:p</O:p
    <O:p</O:p
  • not1not2not1not2 Veteran
    edited February 2010
    Wow. Try taking my words as I stated them instead of projecting spite that does not exist. This is exactly the kind of behavior I've experienced in the past. If anyone brings up anything that does not agree with what you are posting, you get mortally hurt and simply cannot handle any criticism. And I've read quite a bit on this subject and to be honest, you are just as guilty of slandering His Holiness as you feel he is of slandering yourselves. However, I am not starting multiple threads posting damaging information about your practices and the actions of DS practitioners. I welcome any Dharma practitioner and I made explicitly clear what my actual criticism was.

    I am not saying I do not sympathize to practitioners who are innocents in this matter, but there are 3 active threads on the same exact topic. How hard is to understand that this might be unnecessary? I'm not telling you to go away. I'm saying maybe if you introduced yourself and participated in other threads, you might be more well received.

    Additionally, while I understand that the vast majority of Dorje Shugden practitioners are innocent in this matter and bear absolutely no ill-will, I've read a good deal of information implicating more than a few of your DS practitioners. And that goes beyond the brutal murders of 3 high lamas close to HHDL. Additionally, there are questions about the way you have monks and nuns living together as well as the specifics of your ordination. These are legitimate issues and you have to understand that this is not complete blind rage on the part of other Buddhists against you. If you cannot see how others might feel the way they do, perhaps you aren't being as objective about these matters as you could be. I am willing to concede that I don't know who is correct or more correct in these matters, but I am also informed on BOTH sides of the issue.

    This whole situation is one big ugly situation and continually bring it up and not expecting people to be able to disagree with your position on matters is unrealistic and unfair. I have been refraining from maligning you as practitioners and the fact that you have not duly noted this fact does not make me feel like you are being objective in this matter. Honestly, I feel like you are either forcing me to nod and smile when I know there is more to the situation or start actually creating a destructive debate.

    I do not intend on being destructive here, nor do I feel I have been. My criticism has been reasonable and only related to the fact that you have 3 ACTIVE TOPICS ON THE EXACT SAME THING. Also, that the newcomers have not introduced themselves or participated in other threads. That has been the limit of my criticism.

    Anyway, if you all want to feel I've been overly harsh in wishing you to not carry on multiple discussions on the same topic while failing to introduce yourself or participate in other discussions, then that is your prerogative. Once again, I don't have any personal issues with NKT practitioners other than the fact that they rarely seem to comment on any other topic than this highly controversial and ugly situation. Anyway, as I seem to have drawn the wrath of so many of you, I will refrain from posting in any of these threads unless I feel it is absolutely necessary to defend myself.

    Take care all and please do not try to take more harm and suffering out of my statements than you need to.

    metta
    _/\_
  • edited February 2010
    Dear not1not2,

    Can we please stick to the topic of the book The Great Deception? I can't help it if people post EXACT SAME THING on the thread I started. May be they are like you who wish to make their views heard and just wouldn't GO AWAY? I started this thread to ask about the book THE GREAT DECEPTION.

    Have you read the book? If not, please refrain from posting again and again your views about Dorje Shugden and that you think of the Shugden practitioners slandering Dalai Lama etc. UNLESS you are talking about the book specifically.

    Thank you very much. I do not wish to repeat myself again and again and having to read long posts that are NOT RELATED to what I wish to discuss (about the book and their arguments!).

    Thank you very much.
  • not1not2not1not2 Veteran
    edited February 2010
    Ok, so how about we discuss the section from Chapter 11 concerning "The Dalai Lama's fascination with war and Nazism"
  • not1not2not1not2 Veteran
    edited February 2010
    I don't have this book and I haven't read, but it appears to be nothing but the malignment of one of the Great Spiritual and Buddhist figures of our time. That table of contents is offensive enough. It is akin to the propaganda spewed out by the PRC government and I don't know how you can come in posting this book and not expect to cause contention.
  • edited February 2010
    not1not2 wrote: »
    I don't have this book and I haven't read, but it appears to be nothing but the malignment of one of the Great Spiritual and Buddhist figures of our time. That table of contents is offensive enough. It is akin to the propaganda spewed out by the PRC government and I don't know how you can come in posting this book and not expect to cause contention.

    Yes, I agree with you. I think it's quite funny (and not convincing) that WSS chose to "attack" and argue that Dalai Lama is a "bad guy" because he's fascinated with War and Nazism.

    I personally think this is going way to far...

    Anyone else to share your views?
  • not1not2not1not2 Veteran
    edited February 2010
    well, I'm glad to see you think it goes too far, but I'm wondering why you posted it?
  • edited February 2010
    Hi,
    Something new from the thriving Shugden activists :)

    Check this out at: http://www.agreatdeception.com/book/toc/

    Contents

    I am posting the CONTENT PAGE of the book. What's wrong with that?
    It's easier to have everything listed in this forum/ discussion page, I type it out so that people who are READING the book or who have READ the book don't have to go look at the content page to refer to what the arguments was.

    It doesn't mean I agree with all their arguments.
  • not1not2not1not2 Veteran
    edited February 2010
    Well, it's clear where you stand on the DS question and you posted the contents without comment. So, it is not entirely unreasonable that you were posting it to gain traction with the DS debate. I don't know your motives and I don't pretend to. Perhaps if you had been a bit more clear about your personal thoughts at the outset I wouldn't have been as likely to project. Also, posting the smiley in relation to it, implied a sense of favorability towards the content.

    I don't mean to imply anything about you that isn't true. But that is certainly an inflammatory piece of work and I was just wondering why you felt the need to post that here right now as opposed to just about any other book.
  • not1not2not1not2 Veteran
    edited February 2010
    Also, if you are looking for favor and fair treatment, posting a vicious book against His Holiness for discussion with a smiley face might not be the best way to go about it.
  • FyreShamanFyreShaman Veteran
    edited March 2010
    not1not2 wrote: »
    Also, if you are looking for favor and fair treatment, posting a vicious book against His Holiness for discussion with a smiley face might not be the best way to go about it.

    Please go back to post #13. Your remedy is there, unless of course you just want to continue being one half of a pointless off-topic argument?
  • FyreShamanFyreShaman Veteran
    edited March 2010
    On the topic of the book itself, I would be amazed if the authors and publishers did not take legal advice on defamation.

    This isn't a Dan Brown fantasy but a book which makes allegations about a real person.

    If the allegations are false, and HHDL wants to eradicate support for Dorje Shugden, then he can sue in any countries where the book is published.

    The defence is alwaya available that the allegations are true, in which case HHDL may well wish to avoid legal action.

    It will be interesting to see how this saga plays out.
  • not1not2not1not2 Veteran
    edited March 2010
    Yeshe wrote: »
    Please go back to post #13. Your remedy is there, unless of course you just want to continue being one half of a pointless off-topic argument?

    Thanks for your response, but I was specifically addressing pathseeker. Also, the post you just responded to was quite on-topic.
  • FyreShamanFyreShaman Veteran
    edited March 2010
    not1not2 wrote: »
    Also, if you are looking for favor and fair treatment, posting a vicious book against His Holiness for discussion with a smiley face might not be the best way to go about it.

    Since you insist on ignoring advice to contact a Mod if you want something done, and instead carry on bleating, I can only assume you are really on ly here for an argument.

    That being the case, how about actually noting that this topic is about a book being launched, an event. You, however, persist in moaning about the presence of the NKT on this site, moaning about the number of threads and anything else you can link to the NKT - all of which is utterly invalid on this thread.

    Now, to answer your post which I have quoted above, please tell me what miracle powers you have to judge a book, not by its cover, but by its list of contents. 'Vicious'? You have no justification for that comment whatsoever - you haven't read the book.

    Stop trolling and fishing for a row and let others discuss the book, please.

    Namaskar
  • edited March 2010
    Yeshe wrote: »
    On the topic of the book itself, I would be amazed if the authors and publishers did not take legal advice on defamation.

    This isn't a Dan Brown fantasy but a book which makes allegations about a real person.

    If the allegations are false, and HHDL wants to eradicate support for Dorje Shugden, then he can sue in any countries where the book is published.

    The defence is alwaya available that the allegations are true, in which case HHDL may well wish to avoid legal action.

    It will be interesting to see how this saga plays out.

    I think one court case is enough? Seriously, Dalai Lama doesn't need to go through all this, but He is doing it. That shows that he's very compassionate.

    Also, just wondering Yeshe, if you have read the book. What do you think about the false Dalai Lama theory? I personally think even if the Dalai Lama is false, that doesn't discount away the work that he has done and his years of education with great masters. So even if he's the "fake" one, he's doing his job.
  • edited March 2010
    <meta name="Title" content=""> <meta name="Keywords" content=""> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"> <meta name="ProgId" content="Word.Document"> <meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 2008"> <meta name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 2008"> <link rel="File-List" href="file://localhost/Users/Susan/Library/Caches/TemporaryItems/msoclip/0clip_filelist.xml"> <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:OfficeDocumentSettings> <o:AllowPNG/> </o:OfficeDocumentSettings> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:TrackMoves>false</w:TrackMoves> <w:TrackFormatting/> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:DrawingGridHorizontalSpacing>18 pt</w:DrawingGridHorizontalSpacing> <w:DrawingGridVerticalSpacing>18 pt</w:DrawingGridVerticalSpacing> <w:DisplayHorizontalDrawingGridEvery>0</w:DisplayHorizontalDrawingGridEvery> <w:DisplayVerticalDrawingGridEvery>0</w:DisplayVerticalDrawingGridEvery> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> <w:DontAutofitConstrainedTables/> <w:DontVertAlignInTxbx/> </w:Compatibility> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="276"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--> <style> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:Cambria; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:auto; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:3 0 0 0 1 0;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin-top:0cm; margin-right:0cm; margin-bottom:10.0pt; margin-left:0cm; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family:Cambria; mso-fareast-font-family:Cambria; mso-hansi-font-family:Cambria; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1 {size:595.0pt 842.0pt; margin:72.0pt 90.0pt 72.0pt 90.0pt; mso-header-margin:35.4pt; mso-footer-margin:35.4pt; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style> <!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family:Cambria; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast; mso-hansi-font-family:Cambria; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} </style> <![endif]--> <!--StartFragment--> I read the book sometime back. It was the title of the book which caught my eye. It made me curious to know what’s all the accusations towards the Dalai Lama is about In my mind, he's the face for promoting World Peace. Well, I got more than I can chew. This book brought up topics which are quite foreign to me. From my understanding, Tibetan Buddhism not only have a pantheon of deities but they also rely heavily on Protectors of the faith. It presented pages after pages of information showing that the Dalai Lama ban the Dorje Shugden practice which the Gelugpa and Sakya practitioners have hold sacred for hundreds of year. This is the cause for the great adversity towards HHDL because his actions contradict the beliefs.
    <o:p> </o:p>
    I actually read through the entire book (took me awhile as there are many terms which I'm not familiar with) and found it quite intriguing. Word of advice for people who are new to Tibetan Buddhism, … do keep an open mind, and do further research on your own instead of getting caught up emotionally with human right issues. Well, I'm not too bothered with the politics but I will be checking out more about who Dorje Shugden is.
    <!--EndFragment-->
  • not1not2not1not2 Veteran
    edited March 2010
    Yeshe wrote: »
    Since you insist on ignoring advice to contact a Mod if you want something done, and instead carry on bleating, I can only assume you are really on ly here for an argument.

    This is not a terms of service violation, and the moderators here are fully capable of handling their forum. I am not bleating and your characterization of my arguments as such makes it quite apparent you have not bothered to consider them in an objective manner.
    That being the case, how about actually noting that this topic is about a book being launched, an event. You, however, persist in moaning about the presence of the NKT on this site, moaning about the number of threads and anything else you can link to the NKT - all of which is utterly invalid on this thread.

    I have not persisted in moaning about the number of threads. I re-iterated my initial argument after you and others projected much more nasty implications about my motives that aren't true. Additionally, I am NOT bemoaning the presence of NKT people on this forum, but rather that a highly contentious issue is being argued on 3 seperate threads at the same time. And yes, despite the premise of a book launching, this is directly related to the same topic.
    Actually,
    Now, to answer your post which I have quoted above, please tell me what miracle powers you have to judge a book, not by its cover, but by its list of contents. 'Vicious'? You have no justification for that comment whatsoever - you haven't read the book.

    The contents themselves make accusations that are very much vicious. Seriously, this is not hard to understand why the topics in the contents are inflammatory. Your confusion implies that you are either being disingenuous or foolish about the reaction this book would incite.
    Stop trolling and fishing for a row and let others discuss the book, please.

    Namaskar

    Quoting a book that implies that HHDL is not the real Dalai Lama, was fascinated with Communism and Fascism, and is an evil dictator and you say I'm trolling? Sorry if I don't take your argument very seriously. The organization and content of the table of contents is plenty of justification to consider it vicious. I'm not fishing for a row, this whole thread is fishing for a row. And if the OP and yourself had any sense in this regard, you would not be arguing that point.
  • edited March 2010
    Yeshe wrote: »
    Well, according to at least one person here, you are guilty of being an NKT member by posting in support on this thread - not that anyone bothered to ask before launching their crusade. If they had asked, it would seem on this thread many are not NKT at all but support their position. ;)

    Thanks Yeshe.
    Yeshe wrote: »
    I have attended classes and received empowerments from a wide range of gurus, but spent a decade or so with the NKT - enough to know that most of the attacks on them derive from one superstitious and politically ambitious source. ;)

    I see. I think how NKT was formed due to the courage and compassion of Geshe Kelsang is amazing. Similar to the current 101st Gaden Tripa who left Gaden Shartse after his term ended. He's now with Shar Gaden.
    Anyway, what I wanted to say is these Lamas are so inspiring. Anyway, looking at it from this perspective, accused of being part of NKT ain't that bad. haha...
  • not1not2not1not2 Veteran
    edited March 2010
    Like I said, I have no problems with actual NKT or DS practitioners. My sole complaint is how they bring in conflict to forums. Bringing up inflammatory topics and then getting upset and twisting disagreements into being persecuted. This is not my first experience with this and so far nothing has taken me by surprise. Well, pathseeker has been quite understanding in these matters and responses, so that is at least something I wasn't sure would happen.

    Anyway, back to the topic of this book where His Holiness is exposed for the evil fraud that he is.
  • FyreShamanFyreShaman Veteran
    edited March 2010
    not1not2 wrote: »
    And if the OP and yourself had any sense in this regard, you would not be arguing that point.

    Repeating an off-topic allegation several times over is bleating or trolling or fishing for a row. There are 3 threads you find similar - so do something about that instead of derailing this one.
    Mods do not need a breach of ToS to merge threads - they just exercise common-sense.

    You apparently have already achieved omniscience by being able to judge a book from its cover (or contents page). You claim it makes certain assertions - if they are true allegations, you are wrong to slander the author and publisher as vicious. Let's see if HHDL takes them to court, shall we?

    Oh, and the part of your denial I have quoted above is one of the usual ad homs when someone has no point to argue.

    Contact a Mod if you think there is a problem, start your own if you want to, but stop interrupting this thread, please.

    P.S. Much of what is in the book is already on WSS or Shugden websites or in a previous WSS publication , a booklet entitled: The Tibetan Situation Today' - which I think is free.
  • not1not2not1not2 Veteran
    edited March 2010
    Don't accuse me of trolling then defend the existence of this thread. I am not going to debate the veracity of this book, but if you don't understand how highly offensive the mere subject matter of it is, then I suggest you are the one being unreasonable. I came in with a simple, valid criticism and you got all ruffled and projected spite where there was none. Now you are characterizing me defending my point as bleating.

    Like I said, let's get back on the topic of exposing His Holiness for the evil fraud he is.
  • LincLinc Site owner Detroit Moderator
    edited March 2010
    I think it's a worthless, libelous, antagonistic book that doesn't merit discussion on this site.
This discussion has been closed.