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Dukkha - ups and downs??

NiosNios Veteran
edited February 2010 in Buddhism Basics
Hi everybody,<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p

I had been thinking about dukkha lately and my experience of it. Dukkha is nearly always translated as suffering. Personally I believe it to be a bad translation as dukkha is many things, not just "suffering". We will experience dukkha when we are happy due to impermanence, i.e., the happiness is short lived, or we are distracted. This is not "suffering" in the true sense of the word but simply unsatisfactory.<O:p</O:p
So, I had been thinking of this "up-and-down" effect of my life and it's easy to see it in our day to day emotions. e.g. driving to work this morning I was relatively happy until a man in a white van tried to drive me off the motor way forcing me to slam on my breaks whilst at the same time pulling onto the hard shoulder to avoid a collision. Of course I beeped my horn and shouted explicatories, and not even a flash of lights to say sorry from the white van... the cheek! :mad: ... but then I let it pass as I have been taught and I was back to content. This, is how I understand dukkha.<O:p</O:p
But it got me thinking about what we eat and drink and how these also cause this "up and down" effect. For example, I like a coffee in the morning to perk me up. The rest of the day I have tea or herbal tea. But I always get a lull around mid morning after that initial perk has subsided. This is, as I understand it, also dukkha. The same can be applied with sugary foods and drinks and alcohol and many other things we ingest.
<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
My life in general is pretty fine. I've never suffered depression and I have a steady income and a happy marriage, but I'd like my emotions to be steady, not up and down all the time. Looking at it, my practice could be described as trying to find the middle plane between the ups and downs. <O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p

Does anyone else experience this? Does it actually fit in with dukkha in the Buddhist sense?<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p

(I'll be asking my teacher the same question, just thought I'd post here first :) )<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p

Nios. :D

Edit: smilies edited.
<O:p</O:p

Comments

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited February 2010
    Nios, I don't know what you're doing to your posts, but those smileys aren't natural!

    Are you copying text and pasting?
  • NiosNios Veteran
    edited February 2010
    @Fede. Yes. Looks fine on my screen... strange... I'll try edit it.
  • MatSaltedMatSalted
    edited February 2010
    Nios wrote: »
    Hi everybody,<O:p</O:p
    <O:p</O:p

    I had been thinking about dukkha lately and my experience of it. Dukkha is nearly always translated as suffering. Personally I believe it to be a bad translation as dukkha is many things, not just "suffering". We will experience dukkha when we are happy due to impermanence, i.e., the happiness is short lived, or we are distracted. This is not "suffering" in the true sense of the word but simply unsatisfactory.<O:p</O:p
    So, I had been thinking of this "up-and-down" effect of my life and it's easy to see it in our day to day emotions. e.g. driving to work this morning I was relatively happy until a man in a white van tried to drive me off the motor way forcing me to slam on my breaks whilst at the same time pulling onto the hard shoulder to avoid a collision. Of course I beeped my horn and shouted explicatories, and not even a flash of lights to say sorry from the white van... the cheek :mad:!... but then I let it pass as I have been taught and I was back to content. This, is how I understand dukkha.<O:p</O:p
    But it got me thinking about what we eat and drink and how these also cause this "up and down" effect. For example, I like a coffee in the morning to perk me up. The rest of the day I have tea or herbal tea. But I always get a lull around mid morning after that initial perk has subsided. This is, as I understand it, also dukkha. The same can be applied with sugary foods and drinks and alcohol and many other things we ingest.
    <O:p</O:p
    <O:p</O:p
    My life in general is pretty fine. I've never suffered depression and I have a steady income and a happy marriage, but I'd like my emotions to be steady, not up and down all the time. Looking at it, my practice could be described as trying to find the middle plane between the ups and downs. <O:p</O:p
    <O:p</O:p

    Does anyone else experience this? Does it actually fit in with dukkha in the Buddhist sense?<O:p</O:p
    <O:p</O:p

    (I'll be asking my teacher the same question, just thought I'd post here first :))<O:p</O:p
    <O:p</O:p

    Nios. :D<O:p</O:p

    Hi Nios

    My personal single word take on "Dukka" is "conflict", internal and external, it seems to capture more than other single word definitions. Though in the most abstract sense I would say "negativity". Dukka is such a complex many layered doctrine:)

    But in answer to your question, yes, I am sure everyone experiences the up and down, it would seem a strange existence if we didn't, na?

    I guess a part of understanding oneself is understanding why the "downs" and limmiting their capability to feedback on you and your loved ones, as this will just make even more downs.

    I am sure in his 50 enlightened years the Buddha had lots of down days, but he just didnt let them "get to him" in the conflict sense:)

    On the subject of coffee ups and downs, have you tried Yerba Matte Tea?

    Salome:)

    mat
  • NiosNios Veteran
    edited February 2010
    @Mat,

    Maybe I wasn't clear. Sorry. Wasn't asking if anyone experiences ups and downs. Of course we all do! :D That would have been silly of me to ask! What I meant to say is, is this how other people view dukkha? Ie, do other people view dukkha as both the up and the down, rather than just the down?
    But, you have also already answered my question, so thank you :)

    Nios. :)

    PS, @Fede, I've edited it. Is that better??
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited February 2010
    No.

    :lol:

    Can you see them in Mat's quoted post?
    or is it just me seeing things....!?
  • MatSaltedMatSalted
    edited February 2010
    federica wrote: »
    No.

    :lol:

    Can you see them in Mat's quoted post?
    or is it just me seeing things....!?


    I think we may need to call X-Files;)
  • Subjectivity9Subjectivity9
    edited February 2010
    Nios,

    I don’t thing that we can avoid the ups and downs completely, because some of these are natural, or more physiological, like low blood sugar levels, or low energy day (which are said to cycle), or even old age (as a low in opposite to the vibrancy of youth), to name just a few.

    But, there are a number of things that we can do. One is to avoid the extremes (as in the Middle Way) by not feeding these lows into even further dips with our own negative emotions, and by learning to stop certain trains of thought a rapidly as we possibly can. These abilities do grow with practice.

    I think many people overlook the extreme of happiness as being harmless (as you have alluded to). They think that if it feels good, than it is not a problem. But just like any pendulum, one extreme end feeds into the possible energy reversal, or into the other extreme end, (as being out of control can be either up or down). Ask anyone who suffers from bipolar problems.

    A good deal of what we call being down, (and up for that matter) is firmly rooted in our “wanting things our own way,” and in thinking that things should happen in certain (right) ways. This is why you got angry with the driver who cut you off in traffic, because you thought that he should drive differently than he was driving. (Not that you were wrong in this, been there/done that, but this good driving wasn't in your power to make happen, esp. after the fact.) : ^ )

    When you beeped at him, again, you thought he should understand your actions as a ‘wake up call,’ and maybe even be grateful.

    (You might have thought, "Who knows, I may be saving both our lives in the future, or I am making the world a safer place." Just a little drama for your entertainment.)

    “Yah, that would happen. He would be sooo grateful” ; ^ )

    See what I mean?

    We cannot control most circumstances ,or even many other people’s actions. The most we can hope for (in good part) is to get a handle on our own thinking and reacting. Perhaps suffering is our ‘wake up call, and unlike that lousy #$@*^% driver, we should be grateful, and heed the call.

    Warm Regards,
    S9
  • NiosNios Veteran
    edited February 2010
    @Fede. I can see them in both Mats and my post. Perhaps they are in my own head. :eek:

    @Mat. Loooove Scully ;)
  • ValtielValtiel Veteran
    edited February 2010
    Our entire experience is dukkha even when we feel we're happy. Because when we have what we want, we fear the day it will go away and struggle against the inevitable in order to keep it. And we hope against the nature of reality thatother things won't come along that we have aversion to. I do think suffering is a poor translation... There's really no English word to do it justice. Some things are best left untranslated.

    P.s. Fede, you're not crazy. ;)
  • NiosNios Veteran
    edited February 2010
    @Subjectivity9

    Great post. Totally agree. :p
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited February 2010
    At the risk of sounding glib. When your up, forget about down. When your down, forget about up. One good definition of Dukkha is wanting this moment to be, feel, different than it is. This moment no matter how crappy, is not the problem. Sitting at the dining room table with a pile of receipts doing your taxes can be Sukha.
  • MatSaltedMatSalted
    edited February 2010
    Richard Herman wrote: »
    At the risk of sounding glib. When your up, forget about down. When your down, forget about up. One good definition of Dukkha is wanting this moment to be, feel, different than it is. This moment no matter how crappy, is not the problem. Sitting at the dining room table with a pile of receipts doing your taxes can be Sukha.

    How do you see "fun" as a part of Sukkha? (I am writing an essay on this at the moment, so interested in any ideas:) )
  • Subjectivity9Subjectivity9
    edited February 2010
    Mundus,

    Although some words may very well be untranslatable, I think that we should try, anyway, even if it take a whole sentence, or even a paragraph, instead of one word to do this…because in doing so we are forced (once again) to take a good hard look at Dukka, and not just brush it aside with a, “ Ya, Ya, I know that,” kind of attitude.

    No, I don’t think that you do this (disregarding) by any means. : ^ )

    I have seen you give a good deal of thought to things, time and again. I am just saying that this may be just one more way of approaching the truth. (There have been some really great/wise translators down through history.)

    Some ancient words in Sanskrit and in Pali are massively full of wisdom. One word can often teach us a great deal, (like any symbol) if we look closely enough at it, and roll it around our tongue a few times before swallowing it.

    My mom always said to chew my food well, in order to gain its full nourishment, as it aids digestion. This may easily apply to our intellectual food as well, don’t you think?

    ; ^ )

    Warm Regards,
    S9
  • MatSaltedMatSalted
    edited February 2010
    Subjectivity9 wrote: »
    Mundus,

    Although some words may very well be untranslatable, I think that we should try, anyway, even if it take a whole sentence, or even a paragraph, instead of one word to do this…because in doing so we are forced (once again) to take a good hard look at Dukka, and not just brush it aside with a, “ Ya, Ya, I know that,” kind of attitude.

    No, I don’t think that you do this (disregarding) by any means. : ^ )

    I have seen you give a good deal of thought to things, time and again. I am just saying that this may be just one more way of approaching the truth. (There have been some really great/wise translators down through history.)

    Some ancient words in Sanskrit and in Pali are massively full of wisdom. One word can often teach us a great deal, (like any symbol) if we look closely enough at it, and roll it around our tongue a few times before swallowing it.

    My mom always said to chew my food well, in order to gain its full nourishment, as it aids digestion. This may easily apply to our intellectual food as well, don’t you think?

    ; ^ )

    Warm Regards,
    S9

    I agree:) Dukka is a "technical term" that connotes a deep doctrine. Even if it cannot be understood fully, trying to understand Dukka is surely right effort?

    In a sense, is Dharma trying to define and explain "Dukka"?
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited February 2010
    MatSalted wrote: »
    How do you see "fun" as a part of Sukkha? (I am writing an essay on this at the moment, so interested in any ideas:) )
    The same in a sense. When there is no division between how it is, and how I want it to be, there is just how it is. How it is "feels" like a an ongoing consumation or release of tension. A kind of ever-rising. no matter the content. Bliss.

    But, as you know wanting this moment to be different than it is, seems to be our default programming. So when we experience non-suffering in practice for the first time its a revelation. There is a beautiful Theravadin monk who put this way.. " its not about having an experience, but knowing whatever experience is present" I've posted that before but its worth repeating it so simple and effective.
  • ValtielValtiel Veteran
    edited February 2010
    Although some words may very well be untranslatable, I think that we should try, anyway, even if it take a whole sentence, or even a paragraph, instead of one word to do this…because in doing so we are forced (once again) to take a good hard look at Dukka, and not just brush it aside with a, “ Ya, Ya, I know that,” kind of attitude.

    that isn't what I was suggesting at all S9 but thank you for the lengthy response. ;) of course it needs to be defined and discussed. That's obvious. I meant that in essays and suttas and conversation it's best to leave it as "dukkha" with all it's subtle nuances that cannot be translated into a single English word. The subtle nuances that come from trying to understand and discuss and define it. There is no need to translate it to a single English word. Unless you want to write a paragraph definition fir a translation each time the word dukkha comes up, which seems rather silly? Might not work so well in suttas and casual discussion and such. ;)
  • MatSaltedMatSalted
    edited February 2010
    Lovelly:
    Richard Herman wrote: »
    ..." its not about having an experience, but knowing whatever experience is present"

    I always think about the monks in the Sri Lankan temples, they never seem to have much Fun. Whereas HH The Dalai Lamma has always struck me as a very Fun man:) He exudes it:) Romantically, I imagine the Buddha was more like that:)

    Mat
  • Subjectivity9Subjectivity9
    edited February 2010
    Mat,

    I agree with you. Acting in a very serious manner (most of the time, and taking things far too seriously to be able to laugh at them, and yourself, shows a certain amount of attachment. Perhaps this is why so many Masters on the instant of Enlightenment were said to have laughed out loud. They saw this.

    Too often in my life, I have run into people who were very serious in order to prove their self-importance to both me, and to their selves. Often these same persons are very unhappy…not to mention very unpopular.

    They think it is better to be RIGHT, than liked. And, very often they got their wish. They were right (arrogant) in their own minds. But, often nobody wanted to hear about it, AGAIN.

    I don’t think Buddha had to prove anything. : ^ )

    Smiles,
    S9
  • MatSaltedMatSalted
    edited February 2010
    Subjectivity9 wrote: »
    ...Perhaps this is why so many Masters on the instant of Enlightenment were said to have laughed out loud. They saw this.

    I didn't know that, but me likey:)
    Subjectivity9 wrote: »
    Too often in my life, I have run into people who were very serious in order to prove their self-importance to both me, and to their selves.

    Isn't it though!:p

    Nobody is that important;)
    Subjectivity9 wrote: »
    I don’t think Buddha had to prove anything. : ^ )

    For sure:) Or The Dalai Lamma. Not sure about Richard Geere or Chuck Norris;)

    Mat
  • Subjectivity9Subjectivity9
    edited February 2010
    Mat,

    Richard and Chuck weren't really important. THEY were only acting. Tee/hee

    S9
  • BrotherBobBrotherBob
    edited February 2010
    sad/joy sad/joy - dukkha

    tranquil sensitivity - nirvana

    exquisite - bliss
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