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The Lamrim : The Great Treatise on the Stages Of The Path Of Enlightenment

Mr.RabbitMr.Rabbit
edited February 2010 in Buddhism Basics
Hello everyone,

I'm new to the site and I have been casually studying Tibetan Buddhism for the past four years. I'm currently trying to intensify my practice. I'm looking for the interpretation or opinion of someone else studying Tibetan Buddhism.

I should start off by saying I do believe in rebirth and the different realms. I am currently reading volume one of the translated Lamrim teachings. I was reading the descriptions of the hell realms and I was wondering if the descriptions are exaggerated, as a motivational tool or if in fact, they are that bad.

I know some of you are going to say think less and practice more but I am just curious by nature, even though I have a very firm belief in the teachings. Any of your comments or opinions would be very much appreciated.

Thanks!

Comments

  • shenpennangwashenpennangwa
    edited February 2010
    From my experience with Tsongkhapa's LamRim Chenmo and other texts like it, the hell realms are taken quite literally. Usually when you are taught a text like this in a traditional setting the teacher will give a literal interpretation of these things but sometimes a discussion of what can be called "karmic vision" accompanies them.
    This is probably just a skillful means to soften the blow.
  • Mr.RabbitMr.Rabbit
    edited February 2010
    Another reason why I wish I had a Guru. When I read the text it kind of kicked my procrastination in the butt though.

    Thanks for the straight forward reply.
  • shenpennangwashenpennangwa
    edited February 2010
    Mr. Rabbit wrote: »
    Another reason why I wish I had a Guru. When I read the text it kind of kicked my procrastination in the butt though.

    Thanks for the straight forward reply.

    You're welcome.
    This is a pretty challenging text when you get down to it. Do you mind if I ask which translation you are reading?
  • Mr.RabbitMr.Rabbit
    edited February 2010
    I'm currently reading volume one of the three volumes published by Snow Lion Publications.
  • shenpennangwashenpennangwa
    edited February 2010
    Mr. Rabbit wrote: »
    I'm currently reading volume one of the three volumes published by Snow Lion Publications.

    It might be helpful to get a version that contains detailed commentary.
    There is a series called "Steps on the Path" and it is a 5 volume set of which 3 have been published and it includes very detailed commentaries by Geshe Lhundrub Sopa.
    its very good.
  • Mr.RabbitMr.Rabbit
    edited February 2010
    I'll have to look into it when I buy myself some more books.

    Thanks
  • shenpennangwashenpennangwa
    edited February 2010
    Mr. Rabbit wrote: »
    I'll have to look into it when I buy myself some more books.

    Thanks
    If you get a chance to get the teachings you should do it.
    When I received the complete transmission of the Lam Rim it took about 7 days but was well worth it.
  • Mr.RabbitMr.Rabbit
    edited February 2010
    I would like nothing more. It's just the problem of money and geography. I'll jump at the first chance I get though, if circumstances permit.
  • shenpennangwashenpennangwa
    edited February 2010
    Mr. Rabbit wrote: »
    I would like nothing more. It's just the problem of money and geography. I'll jump at the first chance I get though, if circumstances permit.
    I have gotten in the habit of saving money so I can go on "summer retreat" every year for a week.
    For me it makes all the difference. To be a part of a sangha you dont have to see your teacher every day. Although its great to be close to ones teacher geographically it isnt necessary.
    My root teacher is thousands of miles away.
  • Mr.RabbitMr.Rabbit
    edited February 2010
    I guess I'll just have to start saving little by little. I have access to centers and an abbey maybe a few hours drive away. Now that I think about it I don't really have it that bad :)
  • specialkaymespecialkayme Veteran
    edited February 2010
    Mr. Rabbit, I don't mean to put a damper on the topic, but are you ready for the Lamrim? I mean this with all due respect, because I know that you have been studying for four years, but the question is what type of studying are you doing during that time?

    I know I personally have been 'studying' independently for about 5 or 6 years, and I'm not yet at the point where I'm ready for the Lamrim. According to the Kadampa Center that I attend, the Lamrim is really intended to be an intermediate level study.

    If you are ready for it (have a firm understanding of all of the basics) then my apologizes. I would just hate to have you try to learn this material for a vast amount of time, only to realize it's a little above your current study point, if you know what I mean.
  • Mr.RabbitMr.Rabbit
    edited February 2010
    Hello specialkayme,

    I have been studying very casually for years. It was suggested to me that I start with the Lamrim along with a few sutras by a Tibetan Buddhist.

    I may not be fully intellectually ready but I do have a very firm belief and understanding. I was told that reading the Lamrim wouldn't do any harm. Even if I don't fully understand it at least I will be familiar with it when I do get formal teachings.

    Thanks for your concern.
  • specialkaymespecialkayme Veteran
    edited February 2010
    I wasn't implying that you needed a firm belief, or that you needed formal teachings along with the Lamrim. Only that there are a number of other books and works that work as a better and more suitable introduction (such as the Dhammapada). It was just a passing concern of mine, in hopes that you don't get lost along the way, taking the double diamond ski trail before mastering the bunny trail :) Not that there isn't anything to learn from the black diamond trails.

    In any event, good luck! I look forward to discussing future topics and learning with you!
  • Mr.RabbitMr.Rabbit
    edited February 2010
    I see what you're saying. You're absolutely right, I should in fact, study the Dhammapada first and some other things as well.

    Thanks for your input, I look forward to learning with you as well :)
  • ManiMani Veteran
    edited February 2010
    specialkayme wrote: »
    the Lamrim is really intended to be an intermediate level study.

    Not sure I'd agree with this. Firstly, of course it is good for one to have a grasp on the "basic's", but we must remember that everyone learns according to different capacities and conditions.

    Yes, in the monastic curriculum, Lam Rim does tend to be taught later than other texts, but in the west, it is much more of a starting point. Overall, there is a great deal covered. Though one may not initially understand some of the more subtle stuff like the "12 links of dependent origination" or the section in Vol. 3 dealing with wisdom, I think there are many useful and straightforward things for someone who may or may not be a little more less learned. Even the few beginning chapters and sections can set someone in the right direction. After all, it is called "The Graduated Stages Of The Path".

    By the way, Mr. Rabbit, I began my more serious study with the same translation that you are working through.

    To respond on your question in regards to the different hells, have a look at the Ksitigharba Sutra...
  • Mr.RabbitMr.Rabbit
    edited February 2010
    Thanks, that's helpful. I'll have to find that Sutra.
  • ManiMani Veteran
    edited February 2010
    Try this link...

    http://www.drba.org/dharma/earthstore.pdf
  • specialkaymespecialkayme Veteran
    edited February 2010
    I'm not claiming to be the authority Mani, just expressing what was taught to me by a Geshe. I'm sure it depends on the individual, but I believe that the FPMT considers the Lamrim to be a more intermediate (or beginner intermediate, if such a thing exists) level of study.

    Each individual should look at it independently from their own point of view and learning style, and if possible consult a teacher. Just thought it should be mentioned.
  • Mr.RabbitMr.Rabbit
    edited February 2010
    Thanks for the link Mani.
  • shenpennangwashenpennangwa
    edited February 2010
    specialkayme wrote: »
    I'm not claiming to be the authority Mani, just expressing what was taught to me by a Geshe. I'm sure it depends on the individual, but I believe that the FPMT considers the Lamrim to be a more intermediate (or beginner intermediate, if such a thing exists) level of study.

    Each individual should look at it independently from their own point of view and learning style, and if possible consult a teacher. Just thought it should be mentioned.
    There are sections of the Lam Rim that are quite challenging and I would categorize the text as a whole in the "intermediate" difficulty realm.
    I also think that its essential that we challenge ourselves and each other to grow as practitioners.
    I will take this opportunity to recommend the comprehensive commentary of Geshe Sopa's books as a good source since Mr. Rabbit isnt currently studying with a teacher.
  • Mr.RabbitMr.Rabbit
    edited February 2010
    I will take this opportunity to recommend the comprehensive commentary of Geshe Sopa's books as a good source since Mr. Rabbit isnt currently studying with a teacher.[/quote]

    Can you give me the title of a few books I should start off with? (by Geshe Sopa)

    Thanks
  • specialkaymespecialkayme Veteran
    edited February 2010
    I would also be interested. I have not read any of Geshe Sopa's books (mainly because no one has recommended any of them). Additionally (off topic, I'm sorry Mr. Rabbit) how do you feel about Geshe Tsering's series?
  • shenpennangwashenpennangwa
    edited February 2010
    Mr. Rabbit wrote: »
    I will take this opportunity to recommend the comprehensive commentary of Geshe Sopa's books as a good source since Mr. Rabbit isnt currently studying with a teacher.

    Can you give me the title of a few books I should start off with? (by Geshe Sopa)

    Thanks[/quote]

    They are a large series of his commentaries on the Lam Rim.
    So far there are 3 volumes out of 5 that have been released.
    They are called Steps on the Path.
    here is a link to volume 1:
    http://www.wisdompubs.org/Pages/display.lasso?-KeyValue=32836&-Token.Action=Search&image=1
  • Mr.RabbitMr.Rabbit
    edited February 2010
    shenpen nangwa wrote: »
    Can you give me the title of a few books I should start off with? (by Geshe Sopa)

    Thanks

    They are a large series of his commentaries on the Lam Rim.
    So far there are 3 volumes out of 5 that have been released.
    They are called Steps on the Path.
    here is a link to volume 1:
    http://www.wisdompubs.org/Pages/display.lasso?-KeyValue=32836&-Token.Action=Search&image=1[/QUOTE]
    Oh yea, you suggested that earlier in the thread.

    Sorry, my brain isn't working today.
  • specialkaymespecialkayme Veteran
    edited February 2010
    It's alright Mr. Rabbit, it slipped past me too!
  • shenpennangwashenpennangwa
    edited February 2010
    no problem.
    I hope you guys like the books.
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