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Black Muslims
buddhafoot
Veteran
I'm just wondering why or how Black Muslims or the Nation of Islam can take a view on all other races like they do.
I've read statements from a person called "Messenger Elijah Muhammad" who basically states that the Black man is the first man.
Actually, I can accept this because of what we know about where civilizations first started (Mu) and such.
But, there are also references to Chinese, Aboriginees (of either North America or Australia), Japanese, etc being evil or stupid "shadows" of the black man - with "whites" being the evilist of all.
It seems to me that the American Nation of Islam is just a religion of angry people - still angry over atrocities that white people have done to black people.
I'm not saying things that have been done to black people are "okay" or that history should be forgotten. Just like I don't think current day Germans are the same people involved in the WW2 mentality.
But, I have a hard time trying to figure out how a religious race, that large, in this day and time, could hold such feelings of hatred and malice towards the skin of a people in the name of a religion.
Is this not true? Am I just seeing things the wrong way?
-bf
I've read statements from a person called "Messenger Elijah Muhammad" who basically states that the Black man is the first man.
Actually, I can accept this because of what we know about where civilizations first started (Mu) and such.
But, there are also references to Chinese, Aboriginees (of either North America or Australia), Japanese, etc being evil or stupid "shadows" of the black man - with "whites" being the evilist of all.
It seems to me that the American Nation of Islam is just a religion of angry people - still angry over atrocities that white people have done to black people.
I'm not saying things that have been done to black people are "okay" or that history should be forgotten. Just like I don't think current day Germans are the same people involved in the WW2 mentality.
But, I have a hard time trying to figure out how a religious race, that large, in this day and time, could hold such feelings of hatred and malice towards the skin of a people in the name of a religion.
Is this not true? Am I just seeing things the wrong way?
-bf
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Comments
"At Savatthi. As he was sitting to one side, King Pasenadi Kosala said to the Blessed One: "How many qualities of the world that, when arising, arise for harm, stress, & discomfort?"
"Three qualities of the world, great king, when arising, arise for harm, stress, & discomfort. Which three? Greed, great king, is a quality of the world that, when arising, arises for harm, stress, & discomfort. Aversion... Delusion is a quality of the world that, when arising, arises for harm, stress, & discomfort. These are the three qualities of the world, great king, that when arising, arise for harm, stress, & discomfort."
That is what the Blessed One said. Having said that, the One Well-Gone, the Teacher, said further:
"Greed, aversion, & delusion
-- born from oneself --
destroy
the person of evil awareness,
as its own fruit, the reed."
~ Samyutta Nikaya III.23 Loka Sutta
But, I've read where other Muslim followers include people of every race and color.
I just have a hard time grasping a religious belief or thinking where a "religious" group states, as part of their faith in a god, that "these people are evil because of their color". Whether you're talking about Black Muslims or Neo-Nazi's. I don't understand either.
Since there wasn't a place to put up a post asking anyone about "Why do Neo-Nazi's or Arian Nation members think that white people are better than people of other colors? - I didn't.
But, even for these people, how can they think 'white blood' is pure when geology and history basically tells us that "man" or "homosapiens" evolved somewhere in the Middle East?"
I just have a hard time wrapping my mind around religions where it seems some of their basic precept/doctrines/dogmas seem to be based in hatred of something else.
-bf
sorry, but that phrasing makes me cringe.
Nation of Islam is a little whack. But the group did introduce many black people to Islam, and the vast majority of these people have gone more mainstream Islam. I should recall the details, but Nation of Islam went through a major split at some point in time, with most members rejecting the Nation and embracing a more traditional Islam.
Some/many still will not speak poorly of the Nation of Islam for the simple fact that it was what helped bring them to "the Truth" (and it's just bad taste, in my opinion, for one muslim to be dissing another muslim). Even today, long after "the big split", the Nation still recruits people who later leave for other flavors of Islam. Malcolm X was a great man, and he was one who quickly grew out of his racial hatred after hajj.
Gaggles of Muslim groups out there, and you will find black people in all of them. But you probably won't find a non-black in the Nation of Islam
I think a bigger problem than the Nation of Islam is that "mainstream" Islam is riddled with racism. You can pray together, but, for too many, you can forget about marrying someone of a different "race"
It is very easy to understand
The Quran and ahadith are laced with hatred. (Yes, yes, I know, there is some nice stuff, too, if you want to get selective.) You can read my summary of Islam (and if you have a fast interent connection, you can watch some prayer time lectures and "educational tv" -- the tv snippet is transcribed for those lacking broadband.)
There are nice Muslims out there, but... just read this
I'm sorry that statement made you cringe. I thought what I wrote was much more politically correct than the actual quote of "The White Man Is The Devil!"
I don't want people to get caught up on the misconception that I'm trying to slam Black Muslims, the Nation of Islam, or black people or white people or asian people.
I was putting a post up here for anyone that might have some experience with Islam, the NOI, Black Muslims, etc. that could shed some light on some of these hardcore views. Or!, maybe they're not even hardcore views - maybe that's just the way it is.
I do remember reading a story about Malcolm X - where he said his "senses had broadened" or something like that after seeing other Muslims of different races and colors. And how he thought that was a good thing.
I've also read where, at the time of his death, he was no longer a member of NOI - and they wouldn't even call him "Malcolm X" anymore - he was just "Malcolm" or "Malcolm Little" because he died a hypocrite after publicly accusing the leader of the NOI of having extramarital affairs.
My first knowledge of Islam was through the NOI - I was hoping someone could share more information.
I'd really like it if someone could actually provide information about Allah's teachings - because I've read in the past that the teachings of Allah are not the "fire and brimstone" or "jihad" teachings people in the West hear about all the time. I've heard the teachings of Allah deal with a lot of kindness, love, restraint, and compassion.
-bf
Just so you know when I made the statement of middle eastern religions I was referring to Christians, Muslims, and Jews.
Nice generalization.
I disagree.
-bf
Depends on how you define "Allah's teachings". The Quran (direct word of God) is readily available in various English translations to give one a general feel. It will speak against racism. We are all children of Adam type stuff. But, as reality would have it, Jews are called apes and pigs in the Quran. That's the big catch -- if one considers the tribe of Judah a "race".
If you include the ahadith (the teachings and traditions of Muhammad), they are less accessible, but, again, generally non-racist. I'd say fairly cutting edge for the time in regards to racism. Interracial marriages were encouraged by Muhammad. And you will find him praising the qualities of other races. (As I said, for the time, pretty non-racial stuff -- I tend to poke people in the eyes if they think there is such a thing as different races of humans.)
Muslims tend to discriminate more on beliefs than color of skin in theory.
But in marriage, one is encouraged to marry of the same race "to increase compatability". This goes against the teachings of the Quran and ahadith, but is a wide spread practice in the real world. I've heard some complaints about this from the "progressive" muslim crowd and frequently amoungst converts desperate to find a muslim spouse. (Most converts go the strict route of Islam where men and women do not meet -- a spouse is chosen for you.) I got to see an example of this marriage conundrum first hand at a diner in Chicago. Was eating at a halal restaurant with a muslim friend (of the "progressive" variety). A couple other muslim gents joined us. My friend brought up the race issue. When he asked the other two men if they would allow their daughters to marry outside their race, the answer was a firm no. So, you can read all the accounts you want on message boards, and read the scriptures, but when you see it in practice, in flesh and blood, it's quite different.
P.S. In all my studies, I've never heard of a group called "Black Muslims" other than in reference to muslims who happened to be black. From your follow up post, it sounds like that is the name of a sect? There are hundreds upon hundreds of groups, so I could have easily missed one.
In regards to "fire and brimstone":
It's all fire and brimstone
Perish the two hands of Abu Lahab and perish he!
His wealth and his children will not save him.
He will be burnt in the Fire of blazing flames.
And his wife too, who carries wood.
On her neck is a twisted rope of palm fiber.
It rhymes nicely in Arabic, and it's short, so people like to use it as part of their daily prayers. Abu is the Prophets uncle who refused to become a muslim, as did the nameless wife who gets the added bonus of hanging while burning. The nameless wife was sort of pain in the neck, but the Uncle Abu was a HUGE help to Muhammad and Islam, but he simpley would not officially convert -- that was his sin.
I think the best book I've read on the subject of "fire and brimstone" in Islam is called "Prophet of Doom". It pulls quotes from the earliest known muslim biographers of Muhammad, and quotes from the ahadith and the Quran. While the author is annoyingly Xian, he does summarize quite well -- the title pretty much says it all.
Some muslims avoid the obsession with hell; mostly "progressives", the submitters, and the many of the Sufis. But Hell is there, and it can't be ignored. As I mentioned in another thread, a popular topic of lectures is the confirming that these three listed groups are also going to Hell for not being "good" muslims. But, honestly, I think if a buddhist met someone from one of these groups, they'd get along just fine and dandy, and could have a friendly cheerful conversation. I think many Sufis are buddhists in disguise who are just too afraid to leave Islam completely for fear of eternal hell.
Hope somewhere in all my aimless ramblings you are able to find some useful info (other than a confirmation of the fact that I aimlessly ramble :P)
That was an excellent and informative post.
Thanks for the thoughts, points and links!
-bf
I must admit, I totally misread your post. I just reread it, and I don't understand my reply. In my intro, I admitted I'm really stupid, and I'm merely trying to live up to my own expectations (-:
Regarding the big three of theism:
Ever hear of Joseph Campbell? In the U.S.A. on PBS they run an interview with him during fund raising time. The guy summed it up best -- all three share the same mythology, hence, they fight. Of course, Joe said it much more clearly and cleverly, but that's the basis. I watched maybe a total of 30 minutes of this guy, and he changed my life forever. (Also read two of his books, which had less of an impact
In the interview he throws out the challenge to create a new myth. If that just doesn't excite you, well, we have little in common -- but I'll happily share any common ground we do find
Part of my post was asking for someone that might have some information - which you provided. So, even if you missed the mark a little - you still did well.
Thanks,
-bf
What I like about Buddhism is that, to the best of my knowledge, people acknowledge most/all the myths as myths. One can pretend a story is real for a moment to get the meaning, but not have to believe it is "the Truth" for the message to be true.
(And I also like the fact that no buddhist has condemned me to hell yet :P)
I'm a big fan of indirect answers on the subject of religion
I think the primary problem is that Islam is such a wide group of people and ideologies. People pick what they want to emphasize. As the pop song says:
"a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest"
Even when it's "God's Word", the truism still applies.
The Quran says: "Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith." I think that is a very important ayah when trying to understand Islam.
As a side note:
My favorite theist book is by FAR Ecclesiastes. A little too sexist for me, but, overall, a great read.
that is funny, but let us continue with our Quran lesson:
God said:
Who could do greater wrong than someone who is reminded of the Signs of his Lord and then turns away from them, forgetting all that he has done before? We have placed covers on their hearts, preventing them from understanding it, and heaviness in their ears. Though you call them to guidance, they will nonetheless never be guided.
(Surah 18: 57)
When you recite the Qur'an, We place an obscuring veil between you and those who do not believe in the hereafter. We have placed covers on their hearts, preventing them from understanding it, and heaviness in their ears.
(Surah 17: 45-46)
Here we have two verses of the Quran (there are more) saying that God plays an active role in preventing people from believing. Therefore, I conclude that if God himself prevented me from believing, yet is going to punish me for all eternity, well, to hell with him. Which nicely cross references with the Hell thread in Jesus and Buddha. (Muslims do believe that Jesus was a great prophet and was born to the virgin Mary, and he was raised alive to come again at the end of the world. -- in case anyone cares :P)
Fi Amani-Llah
Thank you for the kind words. In my bashing of Islam, I really should overly emphasize that I am presenting one side. The common muslim that you meet on the street could very well be a very loving person -- the opening of the Quran, which is recited a minimum of five times a day, says that only God is the final judge. But too many like to pick and chose verses of the Quran to puff themselves up, and they don't really understand the ahadith (teachings and traditions of Muhammad). If you ever find yourself in a debate with a muslim, just quote the Quran:
Maaliki Yawmid-Deen
(The only judge on the day of resurrection.)
Then remind them that the Quran is free of any conflicting verses. (In other words, if they are judging you, they are usurping a role reserved for God alone.)
i live in indonesia,so i have a lot interraction with muslims, as people they have good ones and bad ones.the fanatics mostly are bad guys.i think the pre-islam teaching (hindu and buddhism) has a great influence to the mindset of the indonesian muslims, that make them less aggressive and fanatics than muslims from other countries.
And for the teaching of islam if you don't have a good guidance from a good teacher(sadly imo there are only few good ullama/muslim cleric) you'll end up as crazy fanatic dude.
Recently in west sumatra province there's information that non muslim students must wear headscarf and in west java, some churches are forced to close their service.but insya allah(with the permission of allah) these things wont happen any longer.
Following are the questions I was asking and his response. As you can see, I was very confused. When posting these questions, I didn't know what the difference was between a Muslim and Islam.
But, the kind Minister Levi Karim cleared things up for me and my whiteyness
Thank you for visiting Muhammad Speaks Website. Here are the answers to
the questions you asked.
>What is the difference, stated by a member of the
Nation of Islam, between Muslims and Islam?
A Muslim is A PERSON who submits his or her will to do the will of
Allah (God).
Islam means peace, or submission to God
>Is there a living prophet that the Nation of Islam
follows?
The Last Messenger of Allah (God) to the Black man and woman
in America died February 25, 1975, His name was Messenger Elijah
Muhammad (peace be upon him).
>What part does Mr. Farrakan (excuse and
>mis-spellings)play in your beliefs?
He is a hypocrite!
>Why is the white man the devil? And what do you think
about white people?
Any live grafted germ is devil. It could be a devil
animal (pig - made from cat, rat and dog) or a devil fruit
(grapefruit-made from lemon and orange). White people were grafted from Black
people. They are weaker. I think just as Messenger Elijah Muhammad taught,
that the characteristics of the white man is evil. Naturally! He was
made like that through grafting. He was made to be the enemy of the Black
man and rule over the Black man (given dominion over the earth) for
6,000 years (six days), until the Black man (nation) produced one who was
more powerful than the maker or (God)of the devil, who was also a Black
man named Yacub. The one we produced is called Master Fard Muhammad to
Whom All Praises are due Forever. He is God in Person.
>Are there any whites in the Nation of Islam?
Could a white person become a member of the Nation
of Islam?
White people are not allowed to attend our Temple Meetings,
except for once a year on February 26.
There are many white people who are Muslim by faith. But Black people
are Muslim by Nature!
>Are there any differences in teachings between
>Muslims and Islam? See first answer
Time no more. My work is with my own people.
Thank you
Thank you for going into the dragon's den!
How sad to hear such stuff! It makes dialogue very hard. I suppose that the best that we, non-Black, people can do is give our support to those Black Muslims who will speak against such ideas from 'within' as it were. I cannot believe that all Muslims who are also Black, in the USA, hold to such nonsense.
The language is (forgive me, I usually avoid this particular comparison) all-too-similar to that of the infamous Protocols of the Elders of Zion or Mein Kampf.
I never knew the pig was made by mixing a rat, a cat and a dog. Sounds almost Dr. Suess-ish.
Or the evil grapefruit? I always thought there was something evil about grapefruits.
Actually, to me it's comical. I think this mentality or religion is one that breeds anger and hatred that you receive for your religious or spiritual substances - rather than peace and harmony. These statements made based on untruth, hearsay, myth and anger - are just funny to me. White people are weaker - but Muslims had to wait until a black man came along that was stronger than the white man to free the black man from white enslavement? I thought the whites were weaker? The black man should have just kicked the white mans butt!
It doesn't change my opinion of Islam. I've read that many of the teachings of Allah deal with peace, compassion and love. Not anger or hatred.
My thought has always been - live and let live. I bear no ill will against Jew, Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Shinto - whatever. It's the great hope of humanity to seek answers for questions we have as humans. If you find peace that does not cause harm to others - I say, "go for it."
-bf
I am a Muslim and just in case someone misunderstood what they have read about Islam and Nation Of Islam in this topic, I would like to clear some things up.
Nation Of Islam and Islam are not the same.
Nation Of Islam is a racist cult which believes that black people are superior to white people and that white people are devils. This is totally against the teachings of Islam and the Quran which states that neither white or black people are superior to one another. They also believe that their founder is God in human form which is considered blasphemous by Islam.
Nation Of Islam is not mainstream Islam and we Muslims DO NOT consider NOI members as fellow muslims. In face, we consider them disbelievers.
A muslims who is black is not the same as a Black Muslim. A Black Muslim means that the person is a NOI member. A muslim who is black is not necessarily a NOI member.
I know most of you know this stuff, but just in case someone anyone confused I have posted this so that they know that we Muslims DO NOT consider white people as inferior humans and devils.
Thanks for that post.
It's informative to hear the differences between NOI and Islam - just because I really don't know anything about Islam.
I have heard wonderful things about the teachings of Islam and that (as with any deity driven religion) while there is retribution and no tolerance for the heathern/infidel - there is also a lot of love and compassion in the teachings of Islam.
Any information you could post - and I think I can speak for everyone here regarding this statement - would be very much appreciated.
-bf
For ages I hoped to find Buddhist/Islamic dialogue equivalent to the Buddhist/Christian conversations. There is very little of it - yet! But here, on this e-sangha, we appear to be welcoming Children of the Prophet (pboh). Wonderful!
Welcome
Buddhafoot,
In Islam we believe God (Allah) will judge everyone on the day of judgement in order to do justice. It would be an injustice if God does not punish those who do evil in this world and reward those who do good deeds. For example, if someone kills someone else (God forbid) then that person deserves to be punished for his crime. It would be unjust if the person could get away murdering someone. Also, retribution is a warning to mankind not to do evil in this world. If there were no retribution then many people would do evil in this world knowing that they will not be punished.
Non-muslims can get into heaven if they believe in One God and the Day Of Judgement.
"Surely those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve." (Quran 2:62)
This verse in the Quran states that believers (Muslims), Jew, Christians, Sabians, and those who believe in God and the Day Of Judgment and do good deeds will be rewarded.
If anyone is interested in reading the similar sayings of Buddha and Muhammad (PBUH) you can read it at this website:
http://www.themodernreligion.com/comparative/buddhism/buddhist-saying.html
I have found that the people in this forum are very polite and courteous, and I believe I will enjoy my stay here. Thank you everyone!
I always liked Islam best out of the 3 Abrahamic religions, because it exceptionally stresses that deeds are as important as faith.
Anyway what is the true Muslim's views on Osama? Will be be sent to Heaven for believing himself as a matyr, or will he burn in Hell for all the killings? Anyway I have heard that there will be a "Heights" in between Heaven and Hell after you cross the Bridge on the Last Day, something like an ageless mountain for those who are like, in between Heaven and Hell... Is it anywhere in the Holy Qur'an?
hope you succeed in the ramadhan(fasting month)
Ajani_mgo,
I think that if a person is punished for their crimes in this world then he is not punished again in the hereafter, but this might not apply to all sins. For example, if a person kills 100 people and he is sentenced to death for it, then he is only being killed once but he has killed a hundred people. What about the other 99 killings? I am not sure about this matter though, so I could be wrong. However, if the person sincerely repents in this life then he won't be punished in the hereafter.
Islam completely forbids taking away another person's life, which Allah was made sacred, unless that person has murdered someone else. The following verses of the Quran illustrates this:
"Those who invoke not, with Allah, any other god, nor slay such life as Allah has made sacred except for just cause, nor commit fornication; - and any that does this (not only) meets punishment. " (Quran 25:68)
"...whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind..." (Quran 5:32)
If Osama bin Laden is responsible for the 9/11 attacks, he has commited a great sin by killing thousands of innocent individuals. Islam forbids the killing of unarmed and inncoent people. If he is responsible for this horrible attack, then Allah will punish him for it.
In Islam, a person is a martyr if he has dies for his faith (Islam). If a muslim is killed while fighting against oppression then the person is a martyr.
Muslims are not allowed to unjustly attack non-muslims. Muslims are only allowed to fight in self-defense when they are under attack by enemies.
The bridge that you have mentioned is called "Siraatul Mustaqeem" which literally means "The Straight Path". All humans will have to cross this path. Those who Allah will punish will fall into hell while trying to cross the path, and those who Allah will reward will cross the path into heaven. The Quran states that everyone will have to walk on the path:
"Not one of you but will pass over it: this is, with thy Lord, a Decree which must be accomplished." (Quran 19:71)
So does Islam consider God and Allah to be the same?
I don't understand how one could be "Jew", "Christian" or "Whatever" and believe in Allah while still being labeled "Jew", "Christian", etc. Isn't that a conflict of interest? Or are you just referring to someone being of a certain ethnic descent?
Thanks for the info!
-bf
A person may call God by any (good) name, but the God which the person believes it must satisfy the following conditions described in Surah Ikhlas:
"Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
And there is none like unto Him."
If someone believes in a God that has the same attributes as described in the Surah above, then he believes in the correct God even if he does not call God "Allah".
As muslims, we believe that we worship the same God as Jews and Christians. We believe that YHWH (the Jewish and Christian god) is the same as Allah.
So yes, God and Allah is the same if the God has the same attributes as described in Surah Ikhlas. Even if the person is not a muslim, they are still believing in Allah in this sense.
I hope to learn more from you about yourself, as well as Islam.
Jason
Experiencing this freedom is profoundly religious, there is then no need to wear a certain color, have a certain brand name and also one will understand forcing an unwilling cow to drink is absurd.
The world is loaded with profound talk but no effective application.
wongkow
I find that Buddhism is very effective, as well as applicable.
Jason
The Buddha Teaches meditation (leading to the cessation of craving and attachment)and he was successful in the dissemination of the Dhamma while the world religions glorify the pursuit of bliss.
Buddhist prayer is a form of meditation; it is a practice of inner reconditioning. Buddhist prayer replaces the negative with the virtuous and points us to the blessings of life.
Buddhist Prayers
By the power and the truth of this practice,
may all beings have happiness, and the causes of happiness.
May all be free from sorrow, and the causes of sorrow.
May all never be separated from the sacred happiness
which is sorrowless bliss.
And may all live in equanimity,
without too much attachment and too much aversion,
And live believing in the equality of all that lives.
May all beings be filled with joy and peace.
May all beings everywhere,
The strong and the weak,
The great and the small,
The mean and the powerful,
The short and the long,
the subtle and the gross:
May all beings everywhere,
Seen and unseen,
Dwelling far off or nearby,
Being or waiting to become:
May all be filled with lasting joy.
Let no one deceive another,
Let no one anywhere despise another,
Let no one out of anger or resentment
Wish suffering on anyone at all.
Just as a mother with her own life
Protects her child, her only child, from harm,
So within yourself let grow
A boundless love for all creatures.
Let your love flow outward through the universe,
To its height, its depth, its broad extent,
A limitless love, without hatred or enmity.
Then as you stand or walk,
Sit or lie down,
As long as you are awake,
Strive for this with a one-pointed mind;
Your life will bring heaven to earth.
Sutta Nipata
Buddha's Discourse on Good Will
(from http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Dojo/1299/buddha.htm )
but this is off topic so to respect everyone else its probably best to move to another thread if you want to discuss more
The act of praying WILL NOT abandon wrong views.
The act of praying commonly understood can prevent the arising of unskill thoughts if you are lucky. That is why I come to the conclusion that the Buddha never encourage praying maybe I'm wrong. I've got to read the Kamala Sutta.
Considering this statement as disrespectful is prevalent in an oppressed society.