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A tough Zen nut to crack
RichardH
Veteran
In Zen, Sukha and Dukkha are included in great awakening.
Sukha is being Awake, wherein Bodymind and World are self-luminous, ownerless, and unobstructed. Dukkha is Un-awake and entails ownership, duality, and obstruction. As I have known it, periods of Dukkha decrease with practice and periods of Sukha increase . Enlightenement, in theory, is when the tendency to identify with thought and enter into dualistic states is put to an end. However I have been told that Enlightenment in Zen is not that, that it includes Sukha and Dukkha as "Sunface Buddha" and "Moonface Buddha". This is the dance of lfe. Now this raises questions. One is the old question of fatalism, "there is nothing to do". This is not the case since realizing Kensho and opening to Sukha is the result of discliplined practice. There is also ongoing practice that has no end, has no final state of Enlightenment.
This is a tough nut, because the need in practice is to seek wall-to-wall awakening, no Dukkha, no Moon, and an awakening that includes both can easily be the delusion of mere licence.
A genuine awakeness that has continuity through Dukkha and Sukha is rare and has many near imposters.
Can any Zen practitioner speak to this?
Sukha is being Awake, wherein Bodymind and World are self-luminous, ownerless, and unobstructed. Dukkha is Un-awake and entails ownership, duality, and obstruction. As I have known it, periods of Dukkha decrease with practice and periods of Sukha increase . Enlightenement, in theory, is when the tendency to identify with thought and enter into dualistic states is put to an end. However I have been told that Enlightenment in Zen is not that, that it includes Sukha and Dukkha as "Sunface Buddha" and "Moonface Buddha". This is the dance of lfe. Now this raises questions. One is the old question of fatalism, "there is nothing to do". This is not the case since realizing Kensho and opening to Sukha is the result of discliplined practice. There is also ongoing practice that has no end, has no final state of Enlightenment.
This is a tough nut, because the need in practice is to seek wall-to-wall awakening, no Dukkha, no Moon, and an awakening that includes both can easily be the delusion of mere licence.
A genuine awakeness that has continuity through Dukkha and Sukha is rare and has many near imposters.
Can any Zen practitioner speak to this?
0
Comments
Zen was my first introduction to Buddhism, many decades ago at the age of 19. I felt like someone had thrown open all of the doors and the windows and let fresh air into my life.
I was overwhelmed by its great beauty, and the fact that it answered many questions that up until then had gone unanswered, often not even addressed.
I still enjoy the fact that it speaks directly to the issue.
Some have said that Practice is not what makes one 'Wake Up', but rather is 'a symptom' that one is in fact 'Waking up."
When the disease is cured however, do the symptoms (practices) persist?
I have often thought that much of Zen is a deliberate effort to tie persons, who believe that they are in charge and can do Realization, up in knots, and then pulling them tighter and tighter (AKA koans) until mind simply gives up, (Surrender) and much like Ananda (Buddha's cousin) we fall back into Realization. (AKA The bottom of the bucket falls out and releases all the contents.)
Respectfully,
S9
One tough nut to break your teeth on after another.
....practice goes on. It just does.
I like this: Enlightenment is an accident. Practice makes us accident prone.
I also like:
Sad/Joy Sad/Joy
Tranquil Sensitivity
Exquisite!
Which I imagine may also be written:
Dukkha/Sukkha Dukkha/Sukkha
Tranquil Sensitivity
Exquisite!
Wherein, Dukkha and Sukkha are the natural ebb and flow of the experience of life; like rippling waves on the surface of the sea, Tranquil Sensitivity is the true deep undisturbed state of the sea (we may learn to rest in with discipline), and Exquisite is the blissful awareness of all things resulting from the direct knowing of things from that deep tranquilly sensitive state; like watching the ripples on the surface of the sea from its deep calm depths with a kind of undisturbed blissful tenderness.
Finally, I like the story of Dogen Zenji's adventure with the storm while traveling on the sea between Japan and China - Just Sitting!!
But, of course, I Don't Know!
Dukkha is the absence of awareness you speak of. It is by definition not awake. It is by definition a 100% immersion in the dualistic state. The "Dukkha" you refer to is not Dukkha, but the mere ups and downs of conditions. There seems to be a drift in zen between a recognition of this, and a more Taoist approach that fudges the matter.
Are you sure?
I imagine both dukkha (unsatisfactoriness of stuff happening) and sukkha (satisfactoriness of stuff happening) as moments of forgetfulness when I'm ignorantly enthralled by mere appearances and blissful awareness as moments when I'm not.
I imagine that training to habituate this being to a stable state of tranquil sensitivity helps me know the play of dukkha/sukkha as mere appearance and release me form ignorant slavery to those states of mind.
I imagine the result of this as a kind of perception of the exquisiteness of this play of stuff happening without attachment.
Of course, as I'm nowhere close to being enlightened, these delusions are my own. They just work for me!
Thank You for the response. I will place 'Dukkha is the absence of awareness you speak of. It is by definition not awake. It is by definition a 100% immersion in the dualistic state' in the crucible of contemplation, 'cuz I imagine you as well grounded in the training.
rather stay put:)
As a matter of fact I'll be spending time with them at the Monastery in April. Although, I may call them or the guru earlier and visit briefly, soon.
I try to catch Roshi outside the Zendo, walking in the garden etc. or when sharing some chi kung or tai chi training.
That begs the question, "who is doing what?" Perhaps it's more that the doing does itself. And that doing is dependent on the awareness of unsatisfactoriness (dukkha).
Also, I haven't seen Sukkha and Dukkha presented in the fashion that you have presented them. Do you have the resources where they came from?
I'm referring to the need in practice ...... Not the directive of practice. Non-seeking is basic instruction. Yet there is this need. It is there. And its not a bad thing. Because although there is nothing to achieve, nowhere to go, etc. this can actually be a trap for people as Zen becomes nothing but licence for acting out in the usual un-enlightened way. All in the name of already there. All in the name of already Enlightened.
There is nothing to do, yet something to do. And that something is to be completely awake.
I am a Zen Theravadin Hybrid who has recently (after a long time of reflection) decided to settle into one aproach. That approach is the Korean Zen. That is where I originally took Refuge. Although the school now is different. My Dharma name is Kojip, and I don't give a damn what any Sutra says at this point. we need to reach up with our hands and find our own heads. If other people have another measure of thing thats fine. different strokes for different folks.
I think that what Lincoln is saying is that any preconceptions when going into practice, would hamstring practice. Preconceptions of any kind, whatsoever, place us squarely in the mind and even perhaps ego needs.
You may have all kinds of justified worries outside of practice, about people misdirecting or even misusing of what has been taught. But, all of these must be set 100% aside when you take your place on the cushion.
Warm Regards,
S9
IMHO take peoples posts on there own merit. If it rings a bell it rings a bell, if it doesn't it doesn't. There are ordained Sangha who can quote the Tripitaka backwards, yet who's only practice consists of blessing the laity's new cars to keep donations rolling into the Vihara.
There are people with the barest knowledge of Sutra who are very wise.
N: That begs the question, "who is doing what?" Perhaps it's more that the doing does itself. And that doing is dependent on the awareness of unsatisfactoriness (dukkha).
S9: It is also my understanding that through ‘Clarity,’ itself, everything automatically self-corrects. Nothing is accomplished by sheer force. Even what some might call "a push ahead" comes about as passion for relief or answers natural builds up within us and looks for release. So that mistaken views simply fall away at some point.
We even take our place on the cushion when it becomes clear that it would be the best move, at this time, to do so, or flows naturally out of what happened previously like a river.
All of this happens more like a rose blooming, than by our aggressively tearing open the rose petals prematurely, and making an abortion of it. That is if we come to understand and appreciate the natural dynamics of practice.
Warm Regards,
S9
I'm really not worried about it, more curious. Nor am I making a doctrinal debate. The way you split them up makes sense in the context you said it.
_/\_
R: That is well put. Yes. I see where you are coming from.
S9: Thank you.
One might say you are a fierce adversary, but certainly a good friend, and also big enough to see another guys point, which is commendable. : ^ )
With respect,
S9
Always glad to see you sheep dog face show up. ; ^ )
F: Any idea can be subverted by the ego in this way. It's just another delusion to cut through.
S9: Yes, and sometimes a mistaken view can be the quickest way to grow through illusion. We then get to see, rather clearly, just how unworkable the mistaken view is. That is as long as our concepts don’t get solid, or shelf-ed.
F: Where's the problem? Do you not trust that it will be clear when this is going on?
S9: Trust is certainly a large component of my practice. Trust allows us to put away fear and anger, to name but a few. Fear and anger and such, certainly drain useful energy, which could be used more productively. Not to even mention the suffering factor.
Warm Regards,
S9
Ah yes, if social skills was the same as money in the bank, I would be getting a notice soon that I am way over drawn. ; ^ )
Like you, I just bumble along in this ticklesh area, doing the best I can, and hoping for a miracle.
: ^ )
But perhaps, my bumbling and falling down serves a higher purpose. Others can learn patience and compassion from my attempts, and even get their PhD in that area, after dealing with me. So in a way I’m making this a better world…or not.
Keep on, keeping on,
S9
__________________
B: I like the story of Dogen Zenji's adventure with the storm while traveling on the sea between Japan and China - Just Sitting!!
S9: I think this metaphor (whether actually lived or not) shows us that Calm Tranquility and the mind's excitablity are not actually an either/or, as Dogen was able to abide in Tranquility even as simultaneously the storm (of life) continues.
Suffering on the other hand comes about when we identify too closely with the storm, and thereby cannot extricate ourselves from the turmoil, which interprets itself a suffering in our life.
Maybe it comes back to point of (Right) view, AKA attitude, or even knowing what we are not.
Warm Regards,
S9