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lol well from the advice he's given here and the advice he's given me, it seems that he's a chill dude who knows the core teachings of the Buddha.. that you can't explain it, there's nothing to be taught. And when dealing with people like you peaceful discussion still prevails.. Stop the attacks, if Floating Abu was still bothered by illusory egoic consciousness like you are there might have been some "adverse" effects. Please watch what you say Citta.
The advice SHE has given you is straight out of books ravkes. Believe me if you knew the whole story with Abu you would not leap to easy conclusions about who is most bothered by illusory egoic consciousness. I will leave you with fond beliefs apparantly need. But if you do ever want to check out the actual facts.....
some of us have seen Floating Abu setting herself up on a number of websites as a teacher over the last two or three years Ravkes. And have also seen the tantrums, the bannings, the tears , the pleadings, the grovelling returns...but I suppose it keeps her from wrecking actual real Sanghas so its probably a small price to pay. F.A is currently waging war on the team that run Zen Forum International or so I am told. I am also told that genkaku has washed his hands. and is making it plain that it is nothing to do with him.
It also has nothing to do with us. She can post here or not. We can respond or not. People who are pretending to be something they're not will usually expose themselves in the process of exchanging posts with other posters. Rather than denouncing another person's motivations, it's better to stick with their observable behavior. It's also helpful to remember that someone's behavior elsewhere isn't really relevant to their behavior here. We're not going to ostracize someone because of something that happened on another forum.
A good general rule is to respond to another poster's ideas, not to the poster as a person.
BTW, Genkaku is very very cool, but I don't know what either he or F. A. said or did, so I have no opinion about that. I don't need to know either. Genkaku can take care of himself better than I can.
Before leaving you to make up your own minds on the issue...and I will do that. Let me make it plain, I did not get up this or any other morning looking for ways to annoy Floating Abu. Neither is it my habit to post ad homs for the sake of it. My concern is that she, within a few weeks of joining E Sangha after having made it clear that she was a beginner, strated to post teachings with the implication that she jad first hand knowledge of them. She started to argue with far more experienced Buddhists, mods, monks, etc. Eventually she was banned for disruption. She then surfaced on a number of other forums, and the same pattern would follow, a honeymoon period followed by her assuming a teaching role she simply does not have the experience to fulfil. She has visited a number of Buddhist centres but has never got down to the nitty gritty business of actually following a practice. When called out on this, And this is the first time I have done it, but many others have, she tantrums and throws out her toys.On joining this forum I was concerned and so were others, to find her here up to her old tricks.
She then joins another forum and starts to " teach". This is a well known and well described behaviour, and she is notorious for it. I will leave it there. And you will hear no more from me on the subject.
With respect, this seems like a private matter between the two of you. (or perhaps just the one of you? ) Why not take it to private messages instead of openly criticizing in the forums?
If you have problems or concerns about another poster on here, citta, the proper way to deal with it is to send a private message to one of the moderators.
the point i was trying to make regarding path and fruit language was there is 'path' language - directing communication to practical path stuff, which may be done from the heart of personal experience - and 'fruit' language - describing the imagined result of the path, usually quoting the words of others, cuz how many of us have actually experienced the end results of the path - so one may write about 'path and fruit are one' and i ask tell me how you have directly experienced this in training?
let me really get a vivid picture of what you know by personal experience in training, not what the Buddha or anybody else says.
It's like someone asking how to bake a cake. One person gives a step by step recipe - this is 'path' language. Another gives a vivid description of a beautiful finished cake - this is fruit language. That's it!! In the original response I posted to the OP. I did my best to use 'path' language. Another person responded with, what I imagined as 'fruit' language, I just sought to illuminate that point.
Back to topic;
Its not even just that Bob. Its that someone posts a recipe and the response is a post saying " the cake is already baked if you could only see it ". Its misleading, its tantamount to being false in the case of any given individual, and above all its by implication a claim that stops all further discussion by substitution for it that implied claim. It short circuits the entire debate. It is also btw a device commonly used to shut down discussion on Zen forums.
Person A says " I am getting stuck at such and such a point in my meditation".
Person B adopting a suitably gnomic and inscrutable tone " you dont exist, the path is the goal, samsara IS Nirvana etc etc etc etc."
Which has actually helped no one next time they sit on their cushion.
If you visit Zen forums you soon realise who makes this kind of statement and who doesnt, and the experienced ones, the ones who actually walk the talk dont do it because they realise that to make statements that might be true in the ultimate sense does not alter a single thing in the provisional, changing, relative world in which everyone single one of us on this forum actually are presently living in terms of our consciousness.
some of us have seen Floating Abu setting herself up on a number of websites as a teacher over the last two or three years Ravkes. And have also seen the tantrums, the bannings, the tears , the pleadings, the grovelling returns...but I suppose it keeps her from wrecking actual real Sanghas so its probably a small price to pay. F.A is currently waging war on the team that run Zen Forum International or so I am told. I am also told that genkaku has washed his hands. and is making it plain that it is nothing to do with him.
Out of all the venom and hearsay you are spreading here, it would be good not to involve innocent bystanders. As Ren said, genkaku is fine and able to take care of himself, but I still think it would be nice to exclude as many people from your vendetta as possible.
the point i was trying to make regarding path and fruit language was there is 'path' language - directing communication to practical path stuff, which may be done from the heart of personal experience - and 'fruit' language - describing the imagined result of the path, usually quoting the words of others, cuz how many of us have actually experienced the end results of the path - so one may write about 'path and fruit are one' and i ask tell me how you have directly experienced this in training?
let me really get a vivid picture of what you know by personal experience in training, not what the Buddha or anybody else says.
It's like someone asking how to bake a cake. One person gives a step by step recipe - this is 'path' language. Another gives a vivid description of a beautiful finished cake - this is fruit language. That's it!! In the original response I posted to the OP. I did my best to use 'path' language. Another person responded with, what I imagined as 'fruit' language, I just sought to illuminate that point.
:scratch:
Fruit or path is all perpective. As I said in my original post (starting this lovely illustrious course of affairs ) in the end fruit is also not apart from path.
It would be good to see things in context (sometimes perhaps)
Thank you all for your kind responses to my feeling overwhelmed with Buddhism. I think I knew already that simply following the noble eightfold path, the four noble truths, and taking refuge in the three jewels is what I must concentrate on for the moment, but it's always good to hear what others have to say. Thank you.
As I have begin, ever so slightly, to become more self-aware, I find that I chastise myself when I find myself having a conditioned response to a situation. It's taken me a lifetime to 'learn' these responses, but it seems that every time I have a thought (particularly a negative thought) about a person or a situation, my "conscious self" (is that the right term?) gives "me" a whack on the knuckles for having it.
I know that we can't help our conditioned responses, but we can (and I do) seek to be rid of them as I try to follow the eightfold path, etc. Is it "normal" to chastise one's self like this? Does it accomplish anything? Is just being aware that a response or a thought is there enough to begin to extinguish it? It doesn't seem so. Those 'knee jerk' responses pop up seemingly of their own free will.
Thank you for your kind thoughts on this..
Mtns
I think the thing is not to try to get rid of conditioned responses by willpower because that strengthens them, but to become aware of them earlier in the process which gives you choice in your response.
A story one of my teachers tells.
A man is walking down the street, he falls into a hole dug by workmen.
The next day he walks down the same street deep in thought and falls down the same hole.
The next day he walks down the street but remembers and walks around the hole.
The next day he walks down a different street.
Its becoming aware earlier and earlier in the process.
I imagine with some sadness that you really don't get it, you have never actually 'baked a cake' or, in this case put in enough time and effort into training on the path, with teachers, to truly understand the the Buddhadharma. It's not just about expressing book learning but about sharing the insights gained from Hearing (reading), which is the easy part, Contemplating, which takes some time - even years of specific practice, and Meditating, which could take a lifetime, to make it yours. when one 'makes the Dharma their own' they no longer need to express it in others words, as someone elses, they begin to have the ability to share it 'from their own heart' and not merely from their head. I share this now from my own experience. I tend to be highly intellectual in approach to training. I read voraciously and write constantly. Over the years my teachers continually admonished me to share my own understanding of the Dharma from my heart, with words that express my own depth of experience in training and not the superficial understanding I may have gained from reading books or listening to Dharma talks. That's why I still go to my elders and mentors for correction. I go and talk with them about stuff in order to have them correct me, to let me know where I'm still stuck in my 'f...ing' head. Why? Because expressing stuff from my head means I need to really do a lot more work on that point of the Dharma cuz 'I don't get it! Just as I stated I imagined of you at the beginning of this post.
I appreciate that you are apparently well read in the Buddhadharma, from a certain point of view, I've been their and done that, oh about 30 years ago. I wish that you may come to know that a broader view is helpful and that speaking form your own heart, your own personal experience of the training and not just parroting other's words and concepts is not only of greater benefit to others but to yourself.
As I understand and imagine it it's what is called 'Skill'. It's how the Buddha and those who followed him, up to this day, actually share the teachings. And it's the third level of training (awareness, control, skill/mastery). This is something I imagine you've yet to accomplish, but you may get there if you choose to allow others, like elders, mentors, and a teacher to actually guide you on the path.
Thank you all for your kind responses to my feeling overwhelmed with Buddhism. I think I knew already that simply following the noble eightfold path, the four noble truths, and taking refuge in the three jewels is what I must concentrate on for the moment, but it's always good to hear what others have to say. Thank you.
As I have begin, ever so slightly, to become more self-aware, I find that I chastise myself when I find myself having a conditioned response to a situation. It's taken me a lifetime to 'learn' these responses, but it seems that every time I have a thought (particularly a negative thought) about a person or a situation, my "conscious self" (is that the right term?) gives "me" a whack on the knuckles for having it.
I know that we can't help our conditioned responses, but we can (and I do) seek to be rid of them as I try to follow the eightfold path, etc. Is it "normal" to chastise one's self like this? Does it accomplish anything? Is just being aware that a response or a thought is there enough to begin to extinguish it? It doesn't seem so. Those 'knee jerk' responses pop up seemingly of their own free will.
Thank you for your kind thoughts on this..
Mtns
Hi Mtns ... thank you for your openness and honesty. Let us all return to your OP ...
Nothing ever goes away ... what changes is our relationship to it.
The process of chastising ourselves is so common in our Western society ... it is probably the cultural inheritance of Christianity with its concept of original sin and guilt. Watch this chastising just as you watch anger and desire. And understand that chastising ourselves is just another one of the countless ways that we "worship" ourselves.
A story one of my teachers tells.
A man is walking down the street, he falls into a hole dug by workmen.
The next day he walks down the same street deep in thought and falls down the same hole.
The next day he walks down the street but remembers and walks around the hole.
The next day he walks down a different street.
Its becoming aware earlier and earlier in the process.
And more seriously, if you practice, it can and will yield the fruits of joy. Just focus on your own life ie practice, and peace of mind through all circumstances can too be yours one day to cherish. Leave that which is observed in the marketplace to the rioters. The world will turn as it does but it is why we practice indeed, to take responsibility for our own link in this everlinking chain of events. Buddhist principles are kindness, non harm, and awakening: the fruit of enlightenment.
I dont know anyone on this site, with maybe the exception two or three old timers(not in age) closely linked to this site, who hasnt put on airs at some point. Its something Ive noticed myself doing online. We are here because we are (mostly) sincere in the Dharma. I'll takes peoples posts on their own merit.
What I've noticed, as a new poster, is it takes awhile to get to know the site and the other members. It's like jumping into the middle of a conversation of strangers, it's a bit awkward.
I have to ask myself what are people interested in knowing.
Sometimes the ego trip comes up because it feels like people want to know my 'buddhist credentials'. I think its natural that we all want to be percieved as interesting enough to converse with.
If anyone ever drops into Zen Forum International they might care to inquire of the very well regarded Venerable Nonin concerning his experience of conditioned responses. It might prove illuminating.
If anyone ever drops into Zen Forum International they might care to inquire of the very well regarded Venerable Nonin concerning his experience of conditioned responses. It might prove illuminating.
Yes gossip and scandal are always illuminating to some, are they not Citta? Perhaps you might even support such practices. Some do their whole lives.
Regardless, all are welcome to ZFI, hostile or not
Hi Mtns ... thank you for your openness and honesty. Let us all return to your OP ...
Nothing ever goes away ... what changes is our relationship to it.
The process of chastising ourselves is so common in our Western society ... it is probably the cultural inheritance of Christianity with its concept of original sin and guilt. Watch this chastising just as you watch anger and desire. And understand that chastising ourselves is just another one of the countless ways that we "worship" ourselves.
A good point well made. Instead of the " guilt" culture that we find in some religious views in Buddha Dharma we speak instead of " skillfull means " so we shape our behaviour towards more skillful options. It is helpful in this endevour to see that we are both Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde at times, behaving one way in one context, and perhaps quite another way in a different context, the idea is to understand by awareness our own behaviours and triggers and to develop " upekkha"..equanimity, which does not mean indifference or a zombie like artificial calm. It means regarding all that arises as our teacher at that moment.
I did not get up this or any other morning looking for ways to annoy Floating Abu.
You could have fooled me. This discussion makes for an irritating read.
There's been several people taking issue with people rather than points in this discussion, which is dangerous because you must assume so much and it rarely gets us anywhere.
What I've noticed, as a new poster, is it takes awhile to get to know the site and the other members.
An excellent point! What I'd like to suggest is that we take a little longer to do that before making assumptions about the character and intent of the people behind the posts.
I honestly couldn't care less who supposedly did what where at what time. I care about how you conduct yourself here.
Comments
A good general rule is to respond to another poster's ideas, not to the poster as a person.
BTW, Genkaku is very very cool, but I don't know what either he or F. A. said or did, so I have no opinion about that. I don't need to know either. Genkaku can take care of himself better than I can.
She then joins another forum and starts to " teach". This is a well known and well described behaviour, and she is notorious for it. I will leave it there. And you will hear no more from me on the subject.
Just a thought.
let me really get a vivid picture of what you know by personal experience in training, not what the Buddha or anybody else says.
It's like someone asking how to bake a cake. One person gives a step by step recipe - this is 'path' language. Another gives a vivid description of a beautiful finished cake - this is fruit language. That's it!! In the original response I posted to the OP. I did my best to use 'path' language. Another person responded with, what I imagined as 'fruit' language, I just sought to illuminate that point.
:scratch:
Its not even just that Bob. Its that someone posts a recipe and the response is a post saying " the cake is already baked if you could only see it ". Its misleading, its tantamount to being false in the case of any given individual, and above all its by implication a claim that stops all further discussion by substitution for it that implied claim. It short circuits the entire debate. It is also btw a device commonly used to shut down discussion on Zen forums.
Person A says " I am getting stuck at such and such a point in my meditation".
Person B adopting a suitably gnomic and inscrutable tone " you dont exist, the path is the goal, samsara IS Nirvana etc etc etc etc."
Which has actually helped no one next time they sit on their cushion.
If you visit Zen forums you soon realise who makes this kind of statement and who doesnt, and the experienced ones, the ones who actually walk the talk dont do it because they realise that to make statements that might be true in the ultimate sense does not alter a single thing in the provisional, changing, relative world in which everyone single one of us on this forum actually are presently living in terms of our consciousness.
Out of all the venom and hearsay you are spreading here, it would be good not to involve innocent bystanders. As Ren said, genkaku is fine and able to take care of himself, but I still think it would be nice to exclude as many people from your vendetta as possible.
Blessings in your path,
Abu
Fruit or path is all perpective. As I said in my original post (starting this lovely illustrious course of affairs
It would be good to see things in context (sometimes perhaps)
_/\_
A story one of my teachers tells.
A man is walking down the street, he falls into a hole dug by workmen.
The next day he walks down the same street deep in thought and falls down the same hole.
The next day he walks down the street but remembers and walks around the hole.
The next day he walks down a different street.
Its becoming aware earlier and earlier in the process.
I imagine with some sadness that you really don't get it, you have never actually 'baked a cake' or, in this case put in enough time and effort into training on the path, with teachers, to truly understand the the Buddhadharma. It's not just about expressing book learning but about sharing the insights gained from Hearing (reading), which is the easy part, Contemplating, which takes some time - even years of specific practice, and Meditating, which could take a lifetime, to make it yours. when one 'makes the Dharma their own' they no longer need to express it in others words, as someone elses, they begin to have the ability to share it 'from their own heart' and not merely from their head. I share this now from my own experience. I tend to be highly intellectual in approach to training. I read voraciously and write constantly. Over the years my teachers continually admonished me to share my own understanding of the Dharma from my heart, with words that express my own depth of experience in training and not the superficial understanding I may have gained from reading books or listening to Dharma talks. That's why I still go to my elders and mentors for correction. I go and talk with them about stuff in order to have them correct me, to let me know where I'm still stuck in my 'f...ing' head. Why? Because expressing stuff from my head means I need to really do a lot more work on that point of the Dharma cuz 'I don't get it! Just as I stated I imagined of you at the beginning of this post.
I appreciate that you are apparently well read in the Buddhadharma, from a certain point of view, I've been their and done that, oh about 30 years ago. I wish that you may come to know that a broader view is helpful and that speaking form your own heart, your own personal experience of the training and not just parroting other's words and concepts is not only of greater benefit to others but to yourself.
As I understand and imagine it it's what is called 'Skill'. It's how the Buddha and those who followed him, up to this day, actually share the teachings. And it's the third level of training (awareness, control, skill/mastery). This is something I imagine you've yet to accomplish, but you may get there if you choose to allow others, like elders, mentors, and a teacher to actually guide you on the path.
So I really wish you find your way to this.
Hi Mtns ... thank you for your openness and honesty. Let us all return to your OP ...
Nothing ever goes away ... what changes is our relationship to it.
The process of chastising ourselves is so common in our Western society ... it is probably the cultural inheritance of Christianity with its concept of original sin and guilt. Watch this chastising just as you watch anger and desire. And understand that chastising ourselves is just another one of the countless ways that we "worship" ourselves.
Mtns
Practice is delightful :canflag:
And more seriously, if you practice, it can and will yield the fruits of joy. Just focus on your own life ie practice, and peace of mind through all circumstances can too be yours one day to cherish. Leave that which is observed in the marketplace to the rioters.
Blessings,
Abu
What I've noticed, as a new poster, is it takes awhile to get to know the site and the other members. It's like jumping into the middle of a conversation of strangers, it's a bit awkward.
I have to ask myself what are people interested in knowing.
Sometimes the ego trip comes up because it feels like people want to know my 'buddhist credentials'. I think its natural that we all want to be percieved as interesting enough to converse with.
Yes gossip and scandal are always illuminating to some, are they not Citta? Perhaps you might even support such practices. Some do their whole lives.
Regardless, all are welcome to ZFI, hostile or not
One of my favourite threads in that forum --
http://www.zenforuminternational.org//viewtopic.php?f=7&t=131
May it be of use to anyone.
Gassho.
There's been several people taking issue with people rather than points in this discussion, which is dangerous because you must assume so much and it rarely gets us anywhere. An excellent point! What I'd like to suggest is that we take a little longer to do that before making assumptions about the character and intent of the people behind the posts.
I honestly couldn't care less who supposedly did what where at what time. I care about how you conduct yourself here.