Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
The Origin Of Suffering
Person 1: I'm sad
Person 2: That's because you're not enlightened
This is how the trap is set.
We now believe that in order to be happy we must achieve this state of being called enlightenment. It's impossible though for any person to possibly be happy within the moment as long as they believe that happiness is the result of an outcome or goal that has not occured yet. I think we can all agree on this.
To make matters worse, along this path we encounter many ideas and techniques to aid us in achieving enlightenment. We begin meditating for example. Now one must not only achieve enlightenment to become happy, but meditating properly is a prerequisite to achieving enlightenment as well.
"I can only sit Burmese, to really meditate very good I must meditate in full-lotus. My legs just aren't flexible enough to sit in full-lotus though... Perhaps in 2 years I will be able to sit in full-lotus and meditate very good."
2 years later
"I can now sit full-lotus, I'm meditating very good now, but this state called Samadhi, I have yet to experience it. This book by such and such says that I must experience Samadhi at least once before I can begin Shikantaza meditation though. I'll just keep waiting for this Samadhi thing to happen. Then I'll move on with my practice."
When we desire a fancy car, a husband/wife, or a job, it's not the object of our desire which brings us happiness, but the cessation of the desire itself. Very big difference.
Enlightenment is nothingness. We completely miss this obvious point though because our minds are so accustomed to concepts and ideas. We turn nothingness into a concept and try to understand what this concept is and how to obtain it. How many discussions have you seen amongst Buddhists where they discuss what emptiness or nothingness is? Innumerable! Nothingness is nothingness, it cannot be described or conveyed through words because it is exactly that, nothing!
"But, I must have nothing to be happy! If I never get nothing, I will never be happy! The Buddha said so himself!"
How can you have nothing? We are trying to obtain something which does not even exist.
Person 2: That's because you're not enlightened
This is how the trap is set.
We now believe that in order to be happy we must achieve this state of being called enlightenment. It's impossible though for any person to possibly be happy within the moment as long as they believe that happiness is the result of an outcome or goal that has not occured yet. I think we can all agree on this.
To make matters worse, along this path we encounter many ideas and techniques to aid us in achieving enlightenment. We begin meditating for example. Now one must not only achieve enlightenment to become happy, but meditating properly is a prerequisite to achieving enlightenment as well.
"I can only sit Burmese, to really meditate very good I must meditate in full-lotus. My legs just aren't flexible enough to sit in full-lotus though... Perhaps in 2 years I will be able to sit in full-lotus and meditate very good."
2 years later
"I can now sit full-lotus, I'm meditating very good now, but this state called Samadhi, I have yet to experience it. This book by such and such says that I must experience Samadhi at least once before I can begin Shikantaza meditation though. I'll just keep waiting for this Samadhi thing to happen. Then I'll move on with my practice."
When we desire a fancy car, a husband/wife, or a job, it's not the object of our desire which brings us happiness, but the cessation of the desire itself. Very big difference.
Enlightenment is nothingness. We completely miss this obvious point though because our minds are so accustomed to concepts and ideas. We turn nothingness into a concept and try to understand what this concept is and how to obtain it. How many discussions have you seen amongst Buddhists where they discuss what emptiness or nothingness is? Innumerable! Nothingness is nothingness, it cannot be described or conveyed through words because it is exactly that, nothing!
"But, I must have nothing to be happy! If I never get nothing, I will never be happy! The Buddha said so himself!"
How can you have nothing? We are trying to obtain something which does not even exist.
0
Comments
There is sadness.
Sadness is born from identifying with the feeling `sad`.
It ends by applied wisdom: it is not mine.
The feeling `sad` arises from delight in sense input.
It ends by applied awareness.
With metta.
Person 1: I'm sad
Person 2: Why are you sad?
Person 1: <<<< to be continued....>>>>
Person 1: "Okay"
happy to happy not to
by the way where did you learn that enlightenment = nothingness = emptiness?
suffering is definitely: 'gettin' stuck on stupid!'
The whole point of emptiness (of abstract ideas) is to separate the finger from the moon, but nonetheless you need the finger in order to see where the hell the damn moon is.
That being said I agree with the general sense of the thread. You can end up clinging to the idea of Nirvana, but if that makes you really follow the path, it will work itself out. It is like letting the craving riptide take you far from the shore where you started, and closer to where you wanna be.
Not too sure where to go with all of this, but in your scenario's written in the first post, there sure is a lot of "grasping" going on. Looking for results. expectations. These all come from our own "judgments" and our own "views", and is certain to cause more distress.
M
how old are you?
Your practice should liberate. Not make you feel worse. I think you are making a straw man. Or have been discouraged.
Part of my own meditation was the expectation that it would ease my suffering from mental illness. Part of that liberation I describe was giving up that expectation. Listen to some Pema Chodron tapes or something. Meditation doesn't get us off the hook from discomfort, sorry.
I think you are making the mistake of closing off from your experience. Its all just concepts you say? This is a way ego tries to make us close off. Rather than getting interested in OUR EXPERIENCE. Nirvana and nothing do not matter. Outside of the context of your experience they are irrelevant.
There are many things people do to close off. They say they already know it. They say they are too stupid to understand anyway. They say spiritual things are too weird to investigate. They say that spirituality is nonconceptual so they don't have to do anything.
All ways to close off.
Enlightenment is nothingness in the sense of prajnaparamita... There is no permanent existing self to experience enlightenment. There is just our experience. Confusion seen directly is clarity.
Both are thoughts that lead you in the other direction.
Your first post is full of errors and questions which are not skilfully posed, because you are starting from a base of ignorance of the teachings.
What are you trying to ascertain here?
And as asked - how old are you?
Ask yourself "Who Am I?" and report back the answer.
Who provides these answers and does the thing which provide them exist at all?
Yes. There is no inherently existing "I". This is a big part of Buddhist doctrine.
-they're many;
-there's plenty of them ("Anybody , want some ? C'mon, don't be shy, it's free
- has many starting points (human beings in general)
- aaaand ..<add here>
In my opinion, suffering it's like a harm that a person inflicts upon itself. Imagine an emo-kid that cuts his/her veins and so does suffering work, but only at the mental level ("The mind is chief of all states" ...so does Buddha say), which, can eventually turn into a physical thing.
Suffering has its origin mostly in the ignorance ( ignorance covers 80% of the suffering's "market"
But mostly it's your fault ...It's like an old Romanian proverb : Man himself builds his luck, or You sleep depending on how you make your bed ( I hope you'll understand...romanian proverbs don't really match in translation with the anglo-saxon ones)
your enigmatic posturing smacks of Ego with a capital E.
It's not clever, and it's really irritating.
Either engage with people on a personable level, or take it to some pseudo-Zen forum where being cryptic and pretentious is the order of the day.
Thank you.
"Everything is Just thoughts!" (angry)
Is itself just a thought
It all exists like a water moon. (how's that for cryptic)
It's all good! check it out!
haha, yes.
"Everything is just thoughts" is also another thought.
Enlightenment is a thought, the idea that it can be attained is also another thought. Why not just drop both thoughts altogether?
Where is your location then?
Form is emptiness and emptiness is form...
Its a very juicy (and deceptive world sometimes)
Anyhow its called Going Nowhere and Doing Nothing and I am sure Thich does more good for the topic than I can when I fug it up.
When you guys think about the origin of suffering, does anyone else imagine that the mind one day decided to make a game to entertain itself, so it invented life, then forgot that it was playing a game?
So the game became its life? Like the World of Warcraft! :P
Person 2: That's because you're not enlightened"
Eh???
"We now believe that in order to be happy we must achieve this state of being called enlightenment....."
Well no, actually, but it helps. I'm quite happy, but I'm not enlightened.:p
"To make matters worse, along this path we encounter many ideas and techniques to aid us in achieving enlightenment. We begin meditating for example. Now one must not only achieve enlightenment to become happy, but meditating properly is a prerequisite to achieving enlightenment as well."
If you keep thinking I MUST do this and I've GOT TO do that you are only subjecting yourself to more stress & pushing your goal of 'enlightenment' further away. Chill out, sit & think for a while.:D
"How can you have nothing? We are trying to obtain something which does not even exist."
Instead of trying to 'obtain something', try letting go instead. If you let go of everything you are more likely to end up with nothing! :om:
This too shall pass.
That's Bullpat.
Whoever answers that way is both ignorant and disillusioned.
no Buddhist would ever respond in that way.
From somebody who claims to have been a Monk, that's pretty idiotic thinking.....
we do?
Really?
That's news to me.... Is that what you were taught as a Zen Monk?
No wonder you left....
Nope. It's impossible though for any person to possibly be happy within the moment as long as they believe that happiness is the result of what is happening at that moment.
Please give links and references to where exactly you have encountered such ideas and techniques.
Which book?
let's have a read of it together, shall we?
No 5h!t Sherlock.... tell us something we don't know.....:rolleyes:
wow, that's a blinder! You think this?
Guess again.....!
I have never, but never encountered any Buddhists who discuss Emptiness/Nothingness, within the concept of enlightenment.
Your Zen master seriously needs a bit of a shake-up. What a dip-stick.....!
I think what you need to do - seriously - is go back right to the basic beginnings, study the 4 Noble truths, and The eightfold path, and see where this brings you.
but the above is utter Mundo-retardo rubbish, and goodness only knows how much time you spent as a monk - but it was time sadly wasted.....
How can sadness pass when one doesn't understand its cause?
Would you tell a person who is watching their house burn down to not do anything because "this too shall pass"?
The fact is that most of us deep down are very lonely and miserable people. Everything in our lives helps to keep us from facing this fact. Surrounding ourselves with countless friends, watching television, reading, working too much, overeating, all these are forms of escape. It's the reason why we hate being "bored".
Why do you meditate?
Why do you read?
Why do people become monks?
Surely there is a reason for these things. Are you not trying to accomplish something, do you not have some goal you are striving after?
All ideas are traps, they are not real. An idea can only take you away from yourself.
Enlightenment or Satori is the goal of Buddhism. If Buddhism didn't offer a way out of suffering why would anyone be interested in Buddhism?
As long as a person has dreams, goals, or things which they wish to accomplish they will remain miserable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zazen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinhin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism
Emptiness is usually the description of Enlightenment. To the western mind, this description is often difficult to comprehend, leading to the idea that it is "nothing," and therefore quite unattractive. Two points will help correct this view. First, "emptiness" can be understood as the Buddhist way of saying that Ultimate Reality is incapable of being described, much the way that many Christian theologians view the Christian God as beyond our human attempts to describe. Second, the "emptiness" should not be thought of as another place. Instead, it is identical to the world or universe humans experience in this life. In this way, it is much like the Hindu notion that this world is simply maya (illusion), which prevents humans from seeing the true unity of the cosmos (which in Hinduism means the identity of Atman and Brahman). Thus emptiness and the phenomena of this world are the same, or as the Heart Sutra says, "Form is emptiness, emptiness is form."
My practice when I was young was what we call stepladder Zen: "I understand this much now and next year I will understand a little bit more." That kind of practice doesn't make much sense--I could never be satisfied. If you try stepladder practice, maybe you too will realize that it is a mistake."
-Shunryu Suzuki
No, totally on topic.
Someone once said, "God invented people because he was bored being himself."
Hum? I've been training as a Zen monastic for about 20 years, including formal seminary training and ordination in a Soto/Rinzai lineage, and have not heard your analysis and expressions of the meaning of emptiness, enlightenment, or nothingness.
I imagine, from your posts, you claiming training at Eihei-ji. Will you please share with us where your statements accord with the teachings of Dogen Zenji, um, the patriarch of our Soto Zen lineage.
Finally, Are you sure??
P.S. I'll be speaking with both Kyogen Carlson, Roshi (Soto Zen) and Hogen Bays, Roshi (Soto/Rinzai Zen) soon. With your permission I'd be happy to share your analysis of these things with them and receive their comments and relay them to you.
Also, you're more than welcome to share what I said with your teachers.
They're actually more friends and mentors than teachers.
Thank You.
I'll copy down some of your material and take it with me next time we meet, which should be in a couple of weeks. I just want to make sure that what I'm imagining as disagreement is verifiable by our elders.
I'm not sure! (never sure!!!) Don't wanna be sure! cuz I love embracing the unknown!!
Here are my thoughts on enlightenment in a nut-shell. I rather you share this with your friends than show snippets of things I said in response to people.
Enlightenment does and does not exist. It is a paradox. It exists in delusion and while at the same time we need the delusion to become enlightened, it is also the delusion itself which will prevent one from ever becoming enlightened as well. We need the delusion up until a certain point and then to be able to see through delusion itself, resulting in what is known as enlightenment.
Anyone who thinks that any action can lead to enlightenment is turning their back on the truth. He is thinking that there is a "he" there to be "enlightened", where as enlightenment is a name for the state where in which there is no seperate individual at all.
Only the action of non-action can lead us to true awakening or recognition of the state of enlightenment. All forms of action, practice, intention, and direction will prevent one from ever becoming enlightened.
If BB wanted his friends opinion on appleorange, he would be better off showing all my replies.
If BB wanted his wanted his friends opinion on appleorange's understanding of enlightenment, the nut-shell reply would be more appropiate.
At least let me think that I'm special on the internet Ren, will you give me that?
I will after Japanese Tea Ceremony
1. Suffering.
2. The origin of suffering
3. The cessation of suffering
4. The path to the cessation of suffering
The Buddha has clearly specified each truth in detail and taught a path to end the suffering and be happy. Many have taken this path and ended suffering ever since and they still do. So what are you waiting for?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zazen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinhin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism
So you get your teachings from Wikipedia ????
O.K. :rolleyes:
I wrote a long post, had to delete it because I have no time to finish. But I'm interested in sharpening your understanding..
We suffer because we cannot see the reality clearly as our mind is mudding and unstill , hence the result we act wrongfully
An ordinary person who could see the true aspect of all the phenomena / Reality could be known as a buddha , or attain the state of buddhahood
Once, in the distant past, there was a band of monkeys. They lived in a forest, and in the forest was a well. One night, the leader of the band of monkeys peered into the well, and seeing the reflection of the moon in the water, said: "Look! The moon has fallen into the well; we ought to get it out or our world will be without a moon."
The other monkeys looked into the well and saw that it was indeed so. "Yes," they agreed. "We should certainly get the moon out of the well."
So the monkeys formed a chain, each holding onto the tail of the one before, while the monkey at the top of the chain held onto a branch to support them.
The branch began to bend under the weight of the monkeys as they lowered themselves into the well, and soon began to crack. The water was disturbed and the reflection of the moon disappeared, the branch broke, and the monkeys tumbled headlong into the well.
http://www.crosby-lundin.com/tibet/culture/folktales/monkeys.html
Stuff exists; like a water moon.
Buddha Dharma cultivation is basically to become the master of our mind, and not allow our mind to us - Nichiren