Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
About Zen Buddhism severity
Hello,
Since some days I've been reading about zen buddhism and reflecting on it. I really think its simplistic way is good, when tibetan buddhism is known for being much more complex. "The simple, the better", one may say.
It's a little bit unusual to find pictures of zen monks smiling. It may be a silly idea, but just googling around and we see the serious faces of zen masters. Well, "it's their discipline", I thought.
Then, I got to know that there is a tradition for admission in Zen monasteries, known as niwazume. It's said that for one to be firstly admitted in a Zen temple, s/he must ask for it at the entrance of the temple, and it will be answered to him something like "This temple is too poor for a person like you" or "This temple is already full" and the person will be told to find another place. The monk-aspiring may be literally kicked from there if persists, but s/he should come back again to the entrance and resist, staying, starving, meditating (and urinating) around there for a period that could go up to three days.
If after this the person is still waiting for admission, it would have been shown that this person is courageous enough to be admitted, and then the person would stay in a meditation hall eating three meals a day and meditating, for a period of seven days. Then, if everything runs well, the person is formally admitted, and for one year the new monk should be subject to the veterans.
So, what do you think? I know this is their culture, and culture is culture. But we should use rational thinking.
I think it's very important to have discipline, obedience and humility; these are very good qualities of a being. But this level of self sacrification may be too high. What about being compassive and kind to others? I can't imagine how a buddhist monk could yell and be rude to someone, even if just for a matter of tradition.
So I think that such straightforwardness, characteristic of zen, may be a little subhuman. I'm really a novice here, and I can't say much, but I think we should be warm and heartful to everyone, including those that sincerely and humbly want to join our buddhist community. Shouldn't we be loveful and express kindess? Shouldn't we treat others nicely in spite of any circumstances? Isn't the zen behavior a little against buddhism itself?
Thanks for your time!
Best,
Vinícius
Since some days I've been reading about zen buddhism and reflecting on it. I really think its simplistic way is good, when tibetan buddhism is known for being much more complex. "The simple, the better", one may say.
It's a little bit unusual to find pictures of zen monks smiling. It may be a silly idea, but just googling around and we see the serious faces of zen masters. Well, "it's their discipline", I thought.
Then, I got to know that there is a tradition for admission in Zen monasteries, known as niwazume. It's said that for one to be firstly admitted in a Zen temple, s/he must ask for it at the entrance of the temple, and it will be answered to him something like "This temple is too poor for a person like you" or "This temple is already full" and the person will be told to find another place. The monk-aspiring may be literally kicked from there if persists, but s/he should come back again to the entrance and resist, staying, starving, meditating (and urinating) around there for a period that could go up to three days.
If after this the person is still waiting for admission, it would have been shown that this person is courageous enough to be admitted, and then the person would stay in a meditation hall eating three meals a day and meditating, for a period of seven days. Then, if everything runs well, the person is formally admitted, and for one year the new monk should be subject to the veterans.
So, what do you think? I know this is their culture, and culture is culture. But we should use rational thinking.
I think it's very important to have discipline, obedience and humility; these are very good qualities of a being. But this level of self sacrification may be too high. What about being compassive and kind to others? I can't imagine how a buddhist monk could yell and be rude to someone, even if just for a matter of tradition.
So I think that such straightforwardness, characteristic of zen, may be a little subhuman. I'm really a novice here, and I can't say much, but I think we should be warm and heartful to everyone, including those that sincerely and humbly want to join our buddhist community. Shouldn't we be loveful and express kindess? Shouldn't we treat others nicely in spite of any circumstances? Isn't the zen behavior a little against buddhism itself?
Thanks for your time!
Best,
Vinícius
0
Comments
Just because something seems so simple, it's not necessarily the case...
I actually decided to not pursue Zen (part of the Mahayana Tradition) because although it seemed simple, it was just a little bit too severe in it's simplicity. I found it unnecessarily limiting. I felt it to be asking too much of me, to actually focus on restricting my practice. That's how it felt, anyway.
I follow the Theravada tradition.
It's the oldest Tradition in Buddhism, and very grass-roots.
Mahayana to me, involves too much extraneous matter, which frankly, rather than serving to help me focus, is too much of a disturbing distraction.
but that's just me.
It took me 20 years or so (give or take a year) to decide upon Theravada. until then, I just followed where I felt my reasoning and common sense took me.....
Felt, but was not the case, probably.
As to the rest of the OP, it shows why reading is always so limited IMHO.
_/\_
If it does grab it and use it.
If it doesn't, leave it aside as not useful to you.
I'm not saying, obviously, that this would be the case for everyone. Far from it.
But in the early exploratory stages, it helps to do a lot of thorough and diverse research, on different schools, disciplines and traditions....
better to have a comprehensive global picture, than anything based on one bit of information....
No?
The history of Zen is filled with pranksters and jovial people and dour folks. Please don't confuse the individuals or their culture with the discipline.
Zen is rigorous discipline designed specifically to help the practitioner cut through the crap with a very sharp tool. It's not for everyone. Before judging please go hang out with some seasoned Zen adepts and see if they're dour or happy. I think you'll find that they're pretty much like everybody else, moments of dourness, moments of happiness.
The most dour folks I ever trained with were, in fact, hard core Vipassana disciples of the S.N Goenka school during retreat. Not a fun group to hang out with during their retreats but really a happy lot before and after. Way too much long sitting and silence for me though.
I also train in Vajrayana, which is more accessible to those who need the medicine they offer.
Again, I imagine what you're referring to is a cultural thing, among a few practitioners, that has nothing to do with the tradition or discipline.
As a matter of fact, I was trained to sit with my face in a neutral relaxed state, which is kind of a half smile. The dour looking face requires muscle tension to maintain. I imagine it's not really too conducive to deep meditation cuz of that tension.:buck::buck::buck:
Temples such as Eiheiji in Japan do have a formal introductory period such as sitting for 7 days. These things are done not to discourage people but to ensure that they and the temple both have confidence in the individual's dedication.
Even after the little trials and tribulations that people are put through, people still drop out of or leave the temple because its too overwhelming for them. Temples go through a lot of trouble and work to accomodate people. Feeding, clothing, providing shelter, and teaching monastic rules come at the cost, time, and work of the temple.
Most people who say they want to be monks, in all honesty have no idea what they are getting themselves into and temples understand this. They have this flowery idea that they will sit in a garden beneath the sun sipping tea while exchanging pithy comments with a Zen master.
What they find when they get there is at 4am a man will run down the hallway banging a bell in order to wake everyone up to attend Zazen in the Zendo. Are you feeling sleepy during zazen? Then you will get hit with a stick.
Are you prepared to eat using Oryoki bowls and chopsticks?
Walking meditation in the snow sound fun?
Washing toiliets and scrubbing hallway floors for hours a day?
Zen temples are infused with a great deal of tradition as well, you bow when entering a room, gassho at all the right times, hold your hands in a particular way while walking down the hallway, etc...
This idea you have of compassion needs to be changed as well OP. Being mean or angry can stem from compassion as well. When you got an F on your report card as a small child, did your parents say "it's ok, I'm sure you tried hard." When Zen masters are being "mean" it's becaue they genuinely care about and love you. They don't want to see you practicing incorrectly or entertaining false ideas so they quickly put a stop to such things as soon as possible.
Zen is undoubtedly my favorite tradition. I prefer simplicity and straightfowardness which are hallmarks of Zen.
At my temple, the teacher would bow indicating that you were about to be hit and you bowed back in return acknowledging him. In some temples you have the option of declining to be hit. The stick is meant to wake you up if the teacher feels that you are nodding off or not concentrating.
The stick doesn't hurt, I don't want to give that impression. You can expect to be slapped across the head for saying something stupid or being disrespectful though.
Official portraits tend to follow certain conventions, regardless of whether they are portraits of American bankers or Japanese Zen masters. It's very important to appear serious. After all, banking/meditating/whatever is a serious affair. :-)
On the other hand, there's a genre of paintings of Bodhidharma with a courtesan. In those paintings Bodhidharma, the most serious of teachers, is generally smiling. Don't mistake the conventions of a particular genre for daily reality.
In every case that I know of where a foreigner showed up out of nowhere and wanted to enter a Japanese monastery, the admittance procedure was nothing more than an informal interview with the roshi. For foreigners who are members of a particular Zen organization, admittance is handled by communication between their teachers and the monastery's roshi. In Japan, Zen Buddhists know the reputation of various monasteries and try to pick one that matches their level of commitment. If nothing else, they will usually talk with their local priest, who will tell a few stories about the monastery he trained in and indicate which monasteries are more strict or more lax. There really isn't a need for a brutal admittance procedure. People who aren't serious tend to change their minds after hearing about life in a monastery.
I've heard about brutal admittance procedures, but no one has ever been able to identify a monastery where they are actually practiced. This may have happened at some monasteries in the past, and it may be happening somewhere now, but no one who has heard about this can tell me where.
As appleorange points out, the real killer is the daily routine. For foreigners, there's the additional problem of cultural isolation and language barrier. My niece recently finished two years of teaching English in Japan. Even without the stress of monastery discipline, the isolation was pretty rough at times.
An important role for Buddhist monasteries is training local priests. Often these priests-in-training are young men who can't pay the full cost of their training, so they are a drain on the monastery's resources. The result is a boot camp atmosphere. Teach them a little Buddhism and try to make responsible adults out of them before sending them back to their local temples where they will have essentially no discipline at all and few will feel any motivation to do further study.
Monasteries are institutions within larger religious organizations. Much of what happens in a monastery is determined by its institutional needs and the needs of the larger organization that supports it.
I would not dareth disagree with our dearest fede :type:
And more seriously than that
At least the Zen centres I have been to, there has been no such thing as described. Perhaps some have still, maybe in Japan? but custom and ritual are not that big a problem at the end of the day. Different strokes for different folks. I also at this stage would not sit for 3 days outside but perhaps some can and do. Who knows where it all leads? I don't and have not found the need to as a practicing Zen student, in attendance of Roshis. And assuming - OK, but if there is resonance, do not hesitate to explore either. IMO. The internet or books are only one small realm. Religious conventions (so called or so seen) are never going to be that familiar or comfortable to us Westerners I suspect. And as to the assumptions etc about what or what not Zen practitioners could do, well..just a smile. It's no fake, but it's not easy to decipher truth from falsity perhaps. But that is what practice is for, and for that purpose, there is awareness. It doesn't mean everyone is genuine, but in my opinion, it's more important that we are true, then everything is a bit clearer anyway. IMO only.
Bows, dearest fede. I hope you are well, and Amaravati is well? I heard Luang Por is retiring soon, he has done a great service to us already. Many blessings to him and all of the community, near and far, of Amaravati and Chithurst. And you.
Hugs!
And Gassho,
Abu
PS Sorry I know there was a lot of off topic in there but I had typed it now so ....
The kasaku is oft used as a voluntary measure by students requesting a relieving hit to sore shoulders or back during long sits (oft during intensive Zen retreats called sesshins)
One can also practice Zen in general Sanghas too.
I woke up at 3am during my times at the Zen monastery, each morning I woke up with a smile, and with energy. It was weird to say the least
When I heard the bell, "F%ck it's early..." was my usually my first response.
I'm not an advertisement for Folgers Coffee, I like to sleep.