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Fight with my fiance
My fiance and i got into a fight tonight about how we would raise our kids. She is catholic and wants to raise our kids catholic. I mentioned today that I wanted to raise our kids educated about religions, and let the kids decide as they get older. I decided that it wasnt worth losing the relationship over, and i could make the compromise to let her have her way on the subject. It means more to her than it does to me.
It ended with her saying that she couldnt be with someone with different childeren raising views, even if they were suppressed.
Advice? Input?
There might not even be much to say. Im just looking for words of kindness and wisdom, haha.
Thanks everyone.
It ended with her saying that she couldnt be with someone with different childeren raising views, even if they were suppressed.
Advice? Input?
There might not even be much to say. Im just looking for words of kindness and wisdom, haha.
Thanks everyone.
0
Comments
Daniel Dennet suggests that the solution to such problems is simply to teach all religions to kids and let them decide.
I agree.
(As an aside, you might want to point out to your Fiancée that, in fact, there is no pertinent historical evidence for the eistance of Jesus, the Bible is clearly a medieval fabrication with much internal inconsistency, and there very probably is no God who would be interested in whether or not we, or Bronze Age middle eastern tribes, masturbate. I would certainly avoid mention of the Boston Dioceses and the other audacious cover-ups that the Vatican continues to perpetuate. Whatever you do do not mention the fact that it does seem like Pope Pius XII supported the Third Reich.)
Mat
I'm sorry to have to say this, but I think your fiance is way out of line. I don't think any body agrees with each other 100% on how to bring up children, no matter what faith you are. There is no manual, you learn as you go. Surely she knew of your beliefs before she said "yes"?
A relationship is not about, "we must agree", because that will never happen. There will always be disagreements. Relationships are about sharing and at times, compromise. You need to talk to understand each other. Find out why she wants her children to be catholic. It might be family and peer pressure.
If she wont back down, at least agree as soon as the children are old enough to let them choose.
Try to understand her religion, show that you are interested, and try to talk about your beliefs as well. It's important to talk camly and try to understand each other rather than get into an arguement, with a "point counter-point" fight. Never get into the "you're wrong" frame of mind. It can be very distructive.
If you truly love each other, then you will work this out together. My wife and I are like chalk and cheese
I hope it all works out for you and your fiance.
With much metta (loving kindness)
Nios.
Personally i think it's wrong to raise children as religious, let them decide for themselves when they're old enough. I think it's awful that parents force their own religion on their children, i thought religion was about having "faith," rather than just believing because you've been brainwashed into it when you're too young to know any better.
Or the Bible!
it's only gonna get worse. consider sparing both her, yourself, and, god forbid, any future offspring the pain and suffering of an inevitable bitter divorce.
Sorry, this is as honest and direct as i can be.
Yikes Bob, you certainly cut to the chase on that one! :eek:
I am trying to learn when something I think is funny is inappropriate and thus I should say nothing, this is me practising what I learn:p
Instead, you could just let it go. If your child notices that you don't share the beliefs they're taught it will just make sure that they know that Catholicism isn't the only way.
As long as your fiance isn't crazy about the whole Jesus worship thing, there is no need to spoil the relationship over differences in opinion.
Anyway, good luck.
We argued for HOURS about raising my daughter catholic. I finally conceded and said when the child is old enough she can decide for herself....BUT the damage was done during our argument....she was very rude and very very ignorant about buddhism overall...she actually...get this....I was reading the Tibetan Book of the Dead around this time....I decided to grab a copy from the local library just to check it out....and during the argument she actually referred to it as "terrorism"....yes....complete ignorance...I had the book for over a week at that point and not once did she ask me what it was about....
Ya, im not going to go into detail on why i disprove of Christianity in such detail, that would def be off topic and make things worse. Haha.
I wish you both well and happy
Take her breakfast in bed and, as you sit down to spoon feed her freshly cut melon and grapefruit ask, "Why was twelve years old the age of consent in the Vatican, oh, and how's the coffee?"
Shell be back soon.
I used to always be befuddled by HH The Dalai Lamma's total encouragement of other religions. Not just tolerance, encouragement. I do see his point now though. If you were to try to attack her faith it could well just make it stronger. Not only that but the very idea of trying to remove faith from somone when we all need some faith is bad for all, it can only lead to conflict. I believe that now. So as some more serious advise to you, you should not let this become an issue between you, talk about it openly and honestly and agree on some clear boundaries so that your spiritual lives wont fight.
I guess if she refused to even have this talk you should start thinking hard about Brother Bobs advise:)
Mat
Hey, I give you kudos for talking this all out prior to taking vows. It seems to me that many people do not.
I don't know, honestly, why people put up with this kind of crap. What force in the Universe stopped you from telling her to take a hike?
"Love."
Maybe the thing to focus on is teaching your children to have open minds regarding everything, not just religion.
If they ask you at some point about Buddhism, or about what you believe about *any* spiritual matter, are you expected to say nothing to appease your wife? What will your children think of your silence and avoidance?
Things to consider.
There may be some underlying issues here and not necessarily about child rearing. She might be getting a lot of information from her friends about you and your buddhist practice that are more than likely not right.
Maybe her being in NY and you being FL is a good thing. maybe she can sit back and think about things.
The only thing that I will predict about your future is that if y'all get married and when and if y'all have children if you practice and walk the middle path, people will see that. It is up to you to spread the teachings but in a tactful way. Therein lies the difficulty of being a buddhist.
I find yet another example where the Dalai Lama's quote ""People chose different paths in their search for spirituality and happiness. Just because they are not on the path you are on, don't assume they have lost their way".
I would suggest the same goes for you as well as for your fiance.
As had been mentioned earlier by river_cadence, your children will end up making choices for themselves. You and your fiance are struggling over who has the right to make choices for your children. In the end, neither of you will be right.
If you truly want to influence your children, be a good Buddhist. They will see the truth for themselves.
In the words of that Catholic people like to quote on occasion (Mother Theresa), "There is only one God and He is God to all;
therefore it is important that everyone is seen as equal before God.
I've always said we should help a Hindu become a better Hindu,
a Muslim become a better Muslim,
a Catholic become a better Catholic."
Help her to become a better Catholic.
In other words she is looking for a male platonic copy of her own views. I say if you do marry her wait a couple years before having kids.
If she's not at a point where she buys into that, then she's not ready to marry.
Love is enough for a marriage....it's just not enough for a HAPPY marriage.
Im really reading and utilizing all of the comments im getting here.
Im new to buddhism, and new to this site, and it just makes me so happy that ive found a great group of people who are offering real help with these problems.
Thanks to all of you, you're awesome!
The thing is, do you know that for certain, or is it to the best of your knowledge of the situation, which is limited? Are you certain she is totally rigid and unable to accept a skilled response?
One of the things I have learned in Buddhism, is that things constantly change. I experience problems when I assume they can't. That is when I give up.
So I would say instead of arguing with your fiancee over something that seems very important to her, I would say maybe teach your kids to be individuals. If they're smart, they'll work their own beliefs out for themselves.
Just throwing my two cents in there.
Seems like you have to make a choice whether you really need to keep this relationship or let it end over a religious dispute. If it's the first one you need, then telling her to read "The God Delusion." won't help me thinks.
Usually Christians are a bit picky about their faith getting inherited by the kids. I know a lot of couples where one had to let the other get their way and convert the kids to Christianity.
You can always get the kids to read about Buddhism when they grow up. Buddhism is better understood as grownups anyway. Aren't some people here non-buddhist earlier? But now they are good Buddhists. The best part is they don't even had to leave Christianity to follow the Buddhist practice. There is no need to be Buddhist from childhood to follow Buddhist practice as a grownup.
Let the kids be brought up as Christians. She wins. Tell the kids about Buddhism when they are old enough to understand it. You Win. That way you both will be happy
isn't this precisely the behaviour we resent when we're subjected to it, by those ignorant of what we practice?
I would have expected more grace, more kindness and certainly a lot more acceptance than this.
:nonono:
It sounds like you're both very young and still studying, so in fact, marriage at this point should be a distant consideration anyway.
I personally think anyone under the age of 95 isn't mature enough for marriage yet... (
It also sounds as if she has been heavily influenced by her religious upbringing or exposure to catholicism, and it's had to find a gap in that, when someone is so entrenched in a hardened opinion.
I think this is definitely what is known as a dela-breaker. it's like one member of a couple wanting children, and the other definitely NOT wanting them. at times, there is no space or opportunity for compromise:
If she is so determined that her children are brought up RC, then she either has to find an equally determined partner, or one who will readily agree to her wishes, simply because he really doesn't give a damn one way or the other.
Your approach is relaxed, and more embracing, hers is "my-way-or-the-highway".
That's simply not good enough for her. She wants a husband who will join her in raising the children in the way she wants.
I think that if you 'concede defeat' in this matter, others will arise and surface that will become greater issues to take its place, and at one point, you will find your principles seriously compromised and brought into question.
Ultimately, it's a choice of how much of your Principle you're prepared to sacrifice before you draw the line and say enough is enough.
Up to you, but in my view, this may be the ideal opportunity to enhance and deepen your personal Buddhist practice by knowing what detachment means, and to equally give her the liberty to find a more suited "soul-mate".
I wish both you - and her - well.
I suppose I should have gone to the next step and made the implied suggestion; Miscunderland, when he gets closer to actually getting married, should have a peaceful discussion with her with regard to the idea of compromise, and how it might relate to religion and kids.
Parenting is a team sport. My wife and I did A LOT of talking prior to actually squirting out our first. We have differences (of course), but she's very open-minded, and understands that for it to work, I have to be happy as well. Maybe I'm just a particularly lucky dude.
The Buddha taught (here) the ideal partner has the same faith, the same virtue, the same generosity & sacrifice and the same understanding.
Catholicism teaches abstainence from sex prior to marriage.
Thus, assuming as both of you have not been sexually active, maybe consider finding new partners.
Best wishes for your decision making.
BTW, about raising children, the Buddha taught as follows:
I can't help but notice that the Buddha's marriage didn't work out so well.
This is a forum. It would be impossible to have all the facts on the situation. All of us, from the most flexible to the most rigid, are dealing with a partial idea of the situation and using our own filters. If it was me on his (hypothetical) shoes - and here I mean if somebody told me I had to agree with their views (not just compromise, but to agree) or else... - I would just tell her\him, with metta, to go f*** themselves :-P. But that is me, my world view, my limit of tolerance for the time being. It wouldn't be realistic for me to say I would praise my love for her and go for it with all the certainty that we would live happily ever after. That is just not me!
I agree.
In my opinion it worked out extremely well because after Buddha's enlightenment his wife and son joined him in the sangha.
.
LOL, I knew about the son, but not the wife, so thank you.
At any rate, I was just making a joke.
anywho,
I come from a Christian background, and married a girl, who at the time had no sort of faith to speak of. The pressures from the people that have been in her life to marry a good catholic boy are bigger then you realize. I would suggest talking to her about it from that point of view. Ask her how she feels about marrying a man who is not a devout catholic. You may be suprised what she says.
Also,
I have a student of over a year now (I teach photography) who is getting married and is a very devout catholic, and in our conversation about it she has told me that it's hard to marry a guy who is a baptist. The Catholic priest has told her he can't perform the wedding unless they go through lots of counciling with him, and he will have to ultimently agree to raise the children catholic or it's a no go from the priest. I asked my student what that would mean to her, and she said no matter how much she likes her future husband (maybe) she couldn't marry him without a heavy heart.
you really may not understand the pressures she is facing. Things like her childhood clergy, family, family friends, and long time friendships may all be pulling her away from you. These are all people she has leaned on her entire life and she is having to chose between them and you.
It's your choice, but I say talk to her about it before you make one. You may walk away from the conversation with a different outlook.
A spoonful of dirt can be something we just step over, but to an ant it's a much bigger deal.