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Collapse of Sunni/Shia and Rise of Quranist
With the collapse of Ja'far Al Sadiq's empire in Iran and Ibn Hanbal's slow demise in Saudi Arabia, the tide is turning and the fictitous sects that emerged during the Abbasid Empire knows as the Sunni and Shia sects and others who follow man made revelations known as hadiths are slowly collapsing. Malik's Empire in Sudan is collapsing and Abu Hanifa's Empire in Pakistan is turning upside down. The so called Islamic states have proven to be ideologically obsolete and in the wrong side of history. The sects are on life support and the Koranist will take over. So who are the Koranist?
The Koranist believe only the Koran should speak for Islam.
WHAT IS DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ISLAM AND TODAY'S PRACTICES?
In comparing the teachings of Islam as derived from the Book of God to the practices taught and enforced by the popular Sunni and Shia faiths (1.2 Bn followers), we find that the list is quite extensive, with some of the highlights as follows:
In Islam, the requirement to be a Muslim is to simply accept and live according to the �Straight Path� (6:151-153), Vs. the Sunni or Shia 5-pillars which come from unauthorized books�
In Islam, abolishing Slavery is taught to be an act of righteousness (90:12-13), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings which encourages slavery under war� :mad:
In Islam, women are never forbidden from praying or fasting during Menstruation (2:222), nor is there a specific dress code (i.e. the Headscarf) imposed on them beyond modesty, Vs. the Sunni and Shia which teach the undermining of women and forcing them to cover their hair and avoid praying or fasting at certain times...
In Islam, a man or women may leave a Will, after settlement of debt (4:12), Vs. Sunnis who refuse to accept wills if there are any direct descendants...
In Islam, Monogamy is the basis for normal relationships, while polygamy is only allowed in cases involving marrying the mothers of orphans under the man�s guardianship (4:3), Vs. Sunnis where a man may be a polygamist simply if he can afford to, and Shia which allow sex for pleasure (Mut�a)... :eek:
In Islam, Divorce is enforceable only after a two-phase period, and it may be made nullified if the couple reconcile before the end of this period (65:1, 65:4), Vs. Sunni teachings that destroy families by allowing a divorce to occur on the spot with no waiting period and no nullification...
In Islam, Thieves do not have their hands cut-off, but are made to work until they return that which is stolen (12:76), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings which brutally amputate the hands causing disability...
In Islam, no one is allowed to be killed or Stoned for adultery (24:2), Vs. Sunni and Shia laws of stoning married adulterers to death...
In Islam, absolute Freedom of Faith is allowed (2:256, 10:99; 18:29; 88:21-22), Vs. Sunni and Shia requiring apostates to be killed and rejecting the practice of other faiths... :mad:
In Islam, people are acknowledged as being diverse and each is to be respected for his/her level of spiritual growth. A Submitter �Muslim� must work to attain the status of Faithful �Mumin� (49:14), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings that all followers of their religion must think, act, and even look the same (cult syndrome)...
In Islam, War can only be declared in cases of self-defence - no offensives (2:190), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings allowing raids and attacks on any people who are considered non-Muslim by their standards... :mad:
In Islam, Pilgrimage is a centre for gathering of nations and for all to witness the benefits of being together (22:27-28), Vs. Sunni and Shia bringing in polytheistic rituals and superstition (touching of black stone, circling 7 times, etc..)...
In Islam, a Year is a luni-solar count made of 365-days (17:12, 9:36), with all the seasons fitting-in-place Vs. Sunnis teaching it to be a lunar one based on 354 days which creates confusion of seasons and time� :rolleyes:
In Islam, males and females are not required to be Circumcised (32:7), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings requiring all males to be circumcised and females in some cases...
In Islam, music, statues, gold and silk are all Lawful(7:32-33, 16:116), Vs. Sunni beliefs forbidding silk & gold for men, and forbidding music & statues for all...
In Islam, rule of Government is under the constitution of the Qur'an through consultation and free-speech (5:48, 42:38). Vs. Sunni teachings which allow the rise of dictators or monarchs, and Shia teachings which uphold self-appointed religious leaders based on genealogy. :cool:
The Koranist believe only the Koran should speak for Islam.
WHAT IS DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ISLAM AND TODAY'S PRACTICES?
In comparing the teachings of Islam as derived from the Book of God to the practices taught and enforced by the popular Sunni and Shia faiths (1.2 Bn followers), we find that the list is quite extensive, with some of the highlights as follows:
In Islam, the requirement to be a Muslim is to simply accept and live according to the �Straight Path� (6:151-153), Vs. the Sunni or Shia 5-pillars which come from unauthorized books�
In Islam, abolishing Slavery is taught to be an act of righteousness (90:12-13), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings which encourages slavery under war� :mad:
In Islam, women are never forbidden from praying or fasting during Menstruation (2:222), nor is there a specific dress code (i.e. the Headscarf) imposed on them beyond modesty, Vs. the Sunni and Shia which teach the undermining of women and forcing them to cover their hair and avoid praying or fasting at certain times...
In Islam, a man or women may leave a Will, after settlement of debt (4:12), Vs. Sunnis who refuse to accept wills if there are any direct descendants...
In Islam, Monogamy is the basis for normal relationships, while polygamy is only allowed in cases involving marrying the mothers of orphans under the man�s guardianship (4:3), Vs. Sunnis where a man may be a polygamist simply if he can afford to, and Shia which allow sex for pleasure (Mut�a)... :eek:
In Islam, Divorce is enforceable only after a two-phase period, and it may be made nullified if the couple reconcile before the end of this period (65:1, 65:4), Vs. Sunni teachings that destroy families by allowing a divorce to occur on the spot with no waiting period and no nullification...
In Islam, Thieves do not have their hands cut-off, but are made to work until they return that which is stolen (12:76), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings which brutally amputate the hands causing disability...
In Islam, no one is allowed to be killed or Stoned for adultery (24:2), Vs. Sunni and Shia laws of stoning married adulterers to death...
In Islam, absolute Freedom of Faith is allowed (2:256, 10:99; 18:29; 88:21-22), Vs. Sunni and Shia requiring apostates to be killed and rejecting the practice of other faiths... :mad:
In Islam, people are acknowledged as being diverse and each is to be respected for his/her level of spiritual growth. A Submitter �Muslim� must work to attain the status of Faithful �Mumin� (49:14), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings that all followers of their religion must think, act, and even look the same (cult syndrome)...
In Islam, War can only be declared in cases of self-defence - no offensives (2:190), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings allowing raids and attacks on any people who are considered non-Muslim by their standards... :mad:
In Islam, Pilgrimage is a centre for gathering of nations and for all to witness the benefits of being together (22:27-28), Vs. Sunni and Shia bringing in polytheistic rituals and superstition (touching of black stone, circling 7 times, etc..)...
In Islam, a Year is a luni-solar count made of 365-days (17:12, 9:36), with all the seasons fitting-in-place Vs. Sunnis teaching it to be a lunar one based on 354 days which creates confusion of seasons and time� :rolleyes:
In Islam, males and females are not required to be Circumcised (32:7), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings requiring all males to be circumcised and females in some cases...
In Islam, music, statues, gold and silk are all Lawful(7:32-33, 16:116), Vs. Sunni beliefs forbidding silk & gold for men, and forbidding music & statues for all...
In Islam, rule of Government is under the constitution of the Qur'an through consultation and free-speech (5:48, 42:38). Vs. Sunni teachings which allow the rise of dictators or monarchs, and Shia teachings which uphold self-appointed religious leaders based on genealogy. :cool:
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Comments
16:82 But if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message .
6:107 Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed Divinity to aught besides Him; hence, We have not made you their keeper, nor are you a guardian over them.
4:79-80 Say:'Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper."
11:28 He (Noah) said "O my people! think over it! If I act upon a clear direction from my Lord who has bestowed on me from Himself the Merciful talent of seeing the right way, a way which you cannot see for yourself, does it follow that we can force you to take the right path when you definitely decline to take it?�
17:53-54 And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner. Verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men; for verily; Satan is mans foe .... Hence, We have not sent you with power to determine their Faith.
21:107-109 (O Prophet?) 'We have not sent you except to be a mercy to all mankind:" Declare, "Verily, what is revealed to me is this, your God is the only One God, so is it not up to you to bow down to Him?' But if they turn away then say, "I have delivered the Truth in a manner clear to one and all, and I know not whether the promised hour is near or far."
22:67 To every people have We appointed ceremonial rites which they observe; therefore, let them not wrangle over this matter with you, but bid them to turn to your Lord. You indeed are rightly guided. But if they still dispute you in this matter, `God best knows what you do."
24.54. Say: "Obey God, and obey the Messenger. but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).
88:21 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.
48:28 He it is Who has sent forth His Messenger with the Guidance and the Religion of Truth, to the end that tie make it prevail over every religion, and none can bear witness to the Truth as God does.
36:16 17 (Three Messengers to their people) Said, "Our Sustainer knows that we have indeed been sent unto you, but we are not bound to more than clearly deliver the Message entrusted to us.'
39:41 Assuredly, We have sent down the Book to you in right form for the good of man. Whoso guided himself by it does so to his own advantage, and whoso turns away from it does so at his own loss. You certainly are not their keeper.
42:6 48 And whoso takes for patrons others besides God, over them does God keep a watch. Mark, you are not a keeper over them. But if they turn aside from you (do not get disheartened), for We have not sent you to be a keeper over them; your task is but to preach ....
64:12 Obey God then and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away (no blame shall attach to our Messenger), for the duty of Our Messenger is just to deliver the message.
67:25 26 And they ask, "When shall the promise be fulfilled if you speak the Truth?" Say, "The knowledge of it is verily with God alone, and verily I am but a plain warner."
10.99-100. If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe! No soul can believe, except by the will of God, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand
28.55-56 And when they hear vain talk, they turn away therefrom and say: "To us our deeds, and to you yours; peace be to you: we seek not the ignorant," It is true thou wilt not be able to guide whom thou lovest; but God guides those whom He will and He knows best those who receive guidance.
109.1-6 Say : O ye that reject Faith,! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, To you be your Way, and to me mine.
74.11-17 Leave Me with whom I created alone!, To whom I granted resources in abundance, And sons to be by his side, To whom I made (life) smooth and comfortable, Yet is he greedy-that I should add (yet more);- By no means! For to Our Signs he has been refractory!, Soon will I visit him with a mount of calamities!
"So have We appointed for every Prophet an enemy - devils of men and Jinns; who inspire each other with seductive, deceptive speech which leads astray; but had thy Lord willed they would not have done so. So leave them with what they do devise. And let the hearts of those who believe not in the Hereafter listen to it; and let them be well pleased with it; and let them gain what they can gain!" 6:113-114
"And when you see those who meddle with Our revelations, withdraw from them until they meddle with another topic. And if the devil causes you to forget, sit not, after the remembrance, with the congregation of wrongdoers. 6:68
2:256 There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing.
Complete and absolute freedom!
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Sure.
Quran 30 : 20 -26
Among His signs is [the fact] that he has created you from dust; then you were propagated as human beings.
Among His signs is that He has created spouses for you from among yourselves so that you may console yourselves with them. He has planted affection and mercy between you; in that are signs for people who think things over.
Among His signs are the creation of Heaven and Earth, as well as the diversity in your tongues and colors. In that are signs for those who know.
Among His signs are your sleeping at night and by day, and your pursuit of His bounty.
In that are signs for any folk who listen.
Among His signs is how He shows you lightning for both fear and anticipation. He sends water down from the sky so He may revive the earth with it following its death.
In that are signs for folk who use their reason.
Among His signs are [the fact] that the sky and earth hold firm at His command. Then whenever He calls you forth out of the earth once and for all, you will (all) come forth! * Anyone who is in Heaven and Earth belongs to Him; all are subservient to Him.
Quran 41:37
and among his signs are the night and the day and the sun and the moon; do not prostrate to the sun nor to the moon; and prostrate to Allah who created them, if Him it is that you serve.
Unfortunately I don't have a spouse, but I can live with that.
I'm up at night (about 0100 hours) talking to you, and not sleeping, so there's another sign disproved.
I don't fear lightning nor do I anticipate it. I do know that it works according to ecological systems and not any kind of entity.
The sky and the earth do not 'hold firm' - the whole world is spinning and there is no mention of this in Qur'an.
Unfortunately it's not real my friend. It's just the product of a long tradition of epic Middle Eastern literature. Why take up the Qur'an anyway? Don't you think that even some hadith books are more useful instead? For instead Nahj ul-Balaghah. Whoever wrote it doesn't matter - at least it contains some useful proverbs for the use of man.
What you're saying about being a 'Qur'anist' is interesting. I think Islam in the mainstream Sunni and Shia denominations shall continue to survive because it's more a political ideology now than anything people really believe is true. It represents solidarity for Middle Eastern people and other 'Orientals' in the face of foreign cultural influence. Have you read Edward Said? The Islam you mean: Sunni or Shia, is something like an Occidentalist reaction to Orientalism. Much as Christianity in its modern form IS Orientalism (according to him). So, what you are talking about is an Islam that is much changed from earlier times. Personally I love Islamic culture, and if you look at Islamic history you will see that during the Golden Age of Sufism the Qur'an was relegated to a position where it earned mostly lip service, and was heavily reinterpreted as people had found something better than the 'pure' faith.
The need of creating some kind of theoretical justification for what so far had been an instinctive reliance on the opinions of the majority, led, from the first decades of the second/eighth century onwards, to the living tradition being retrojected, and to its being ascribed to some of the great hgures of the past. This process, too, began in Kufa, where the stage of doctrine achieved in the time of Hammad b. Abi Sulayman (d. I20/738) was attributed to Ibrahim al-Nakha'i (d. 95-6/7I3-I5). The Medinese followed suit and retrojected their own teaching to a number of ancient authorities who had died about the turn of the century, some of whom later became known as the 'seven jurists of Medina'. At the same time as the doctrine of the school of Kufa was retrospectively attributed to Ibrahim al-Nakha'i, a similar body of doctrine was directly connected with the very beginnings of Islam in Kufa by being attributed to Ibn Mas'ud, a Companion of the Prophet who had come to live in that city, and Ibrahim al-Nakha'i became the main transmitter of that body of doctrine, too. In the same way, other Companions of the Prophet became the eponyms of the schools of Medina and of Mecca. One further step in the search for a solid theoretical foundation of the doctrine of the ancient schools was taken in 'Iraq, very early in the second/eighth century, when the term ' Sunna of the Prophet ' was transferred from its political and theological into a legal context, and identified with the sunna, the ideal practice of the local community and the corresponding doctrine of its scholars. This term, which was taken over by the school of Syria, expressed the axiom that the practice of the Muslims derived from the practice of the Prophet, but it did not as yet imply the existence of positive information in the form of ' Traditions ' (Hadith), that the Prophet by his words or acts had in fact originated or approved any particular practice. It was not long before these Traditions, too, came into existence, and the persons who put them into circulation were the Traditionists.
The ancient schools of law themselves represented, in one aspect, an Islamic opposition to popular andadministrativepracticeunderthe later Umayyads, and the opposition group which developed into the Traditionist movement emphasized this tendency. As long as a Companion of the Prophet had been the final authority for the doctrine of a school on a particular point, it was sufficient for a divergent doctrine to be put under the aegis of another Companion of equal or even higher authority, as happened in Kufa where all kinds of minority opinions were attributed to the Caliph 'Ali, who had made Kufa his capital. But after the general authority of the Prophet himself had been invoked by identifying the established doctrine with his sunna, a more specific reference to him was needed, and there appeared detailed statements or 'Traditions' which claimed to be the reports of ear- or eye-witnesses on the words or acts of the Prophet, handed down orally by an uninterrupted chain of trustworthy persons. Very soon the emphasis shifted from proposing certain opinions in opposition to the ancient schools to disseminating Traditions from the Prophet as such, and the movement of the Traditionists, which was to develop into a separate branch of Islamic religious learning, came into being. It was the main thesis of the Traditionists that formal Traditions from the Prophet superseded the living tradition of the school. The Traditionists existed in all great centres of Islam, where they formed groups in opposition to, but nevertheless in contact with, the local schools of law. Initially the ancient schools offered strong resistance to the disturbing element represented by the Traditions, but they had no real defence against their rising tide; they had to express their own doctrines in Traditions which allegedly went back to the Prophet, and to take increasing notice of the Traditions produced by their opponents. Finally the outlines and many details of Islamic law were cast into the form of Traditions from the Prophet. In this way, one of the greatest and most successful literary fictions came into being.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/med/schacht.html
Forget Edward Saed. Take a look at Joseph Schacht!
The early Caliphs were able to exercise a great deal of personal autonomy.in their administration of the ummah, but later this became impracticable and it became necessary to establish a system of Islamic law. At the beginning there was a multiplicity of competing ideologies concerning jurisprudence. The one that dominated was called MUTAZILISM, or Rationalism. This was based on the Qur'an-alone, just like your modern movement. The people learned in the Qur'an would proceed on the assumption that God was just, infallible and rational, and proceeded to rule on matters of law using the Qur'an Alone as an Infallible Source of Divine Law. However, this fell out of favour.
In the 8th century the legalist Imam al-Shafi proposed that the Qur'an AND the traditions of the Prophet (the hadiths) were dually infallible sources of Islamic law. When he said this, there were literally hundreds of other philosophies of law in the Islamic law. However after announcing this idea, which acquired the favour of the Caliph, the other 3 schools of jurisprudence emerged, basically copying him. This was preceded by an effort by Muslim and Bukhari to establish collections of hadiths. These are the hadiths you are objecting to. Now that the 4 Islamic schools of law were established, the doctrine was called, during time of Abbasids, SUNNI Islam. The followers of the Imams, believing in the succession of Imam Ali and his descendants, were known as Shia. They came up with their own system, copying the Sunni maddhabs' idea of the infallibility of hadiths alongside the Qur'an, called the Imamiyyah system, in which hadiths of the Imams were included.
What I'm pointing out here is, don't get hung up on words like Traditionist or Rationalist. These references are now attributed to people who you don't expect. What you are doing, is advocating a return to Mutazilism in Islam. However the major problem with your idea of Qur'an-alone is that you can't establish that the Qur'an is a 'divinely revealed text' without pretending to some belief in hadith. You see, it's just a book that appeared from nowhere, unless you take hadiths as a source of Arabic history.
The Quran sells itself and its authority is established by itself. It is faith and not anything else. Its a sign of God among many. Many people believed in the prophets without scriptures or signs. Many of Muhammad's early believers never saw much of the Quran and died that way, but died believers.
Either you have faith or you don't, thats in God's hands not human hands.
As far as the Abbasids, they are just a bunch of Meccan Qureishis like the Ummayids. The Islamic law that Shafi and co. came with is just Arab tribalism mixed with some Zoroastrianism, Byzantianism and Talmudic Judaism. No more or less.
Yes the Mutazilites were Quranist as most people in Islam were before Mutawakkil and his Sunni take over. In many ways many of them still are but are not aware of it.
Youre asking of proof and evidence has been talked about before:
26.154 "Thou art no more than a mortal like us: then bring us a Sign, if thou tellest the truth!"
They say: "Why is not an angel sent down to him?" If We did send down an angel, the matter would be settled at once, and no respite would be granted them. Al-An'am, Verse 8
Al-An'am, Verse 37 They say: "Why is not a Sign sent down to him from his Lord?" Say: "Allah hath certainly power to send down a Sign: but most of them understand not."
Al-An'am, Verse 111 Even if We did send unto them angels, and the dead did speak unto them, and We gathered together all things before their very eyes, they are not the ones to believe, unless it is in Allah's Plan. But most of them ignore (the truth).
Yunus, Verse 20 They say: "Why is not a Sign sent down to him from his Lord?" Say: "The unseen is only for Allah (to know). Then wait ye: I too will wait with you."
Hud, Verse 12 Perchance thou mayest (feel the inclination) to give up a part of what is revealed unto thee, and thy heart feeleth straitened lest they say, "Why is not a treasure sent down unto him, or why does not an angel come down with him?" But thou art there only to warn! It is Allah that arrangeth all affairs!.
Ar-Ra'd> Verse 38 We did send Messengers before thee, and appointed for them wives and children: and it was never the part of a Messenger to bring a Sign except as Allah permitted (or commanded). For each period is a Book (revealed).
Al-Israa> Verse 93 "Or thou have a house adorned with gold, or thou mount a ladder right into the skies. No, we shall not even believe in thy mounting until thou send down to us a book that we can read." Say: "Glory to my Lord! am I aught but a man, a Messenger?"
Surah Al-Furqan> Verse 7-8
And they say: "What sort of a Messenger is this, who eats foods, and walks through the streets? Why has not an angel been sent down to him to give admonition with him? "Or (why) has not a treasure been bestowed on him, or why has he (not) a garden for enjoyment? "The wicked say: "Ye follow none other than a man bewitched."
And yet we know many signs were shown to the people in the previous generations
20.133. They say: "Why does he not bring us a sign from his Lord?" Has not a Clear Sign come to them of all that was in the former Books of revelation?
5.110.Then will God say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.
26.30-35 (Moses) said: "Even if I showed you something clear (and) convincing?" Pharaoh) said: "Show it then, if thou tellest the truth!" So (Moses) threw his rod, and behold, it was a serpent, plain (for all to see)! And he drew out his hand, and behold, it was white to all beholders! (Pharaoh) said to the Chiefs around him: "This is indeed a sorcerer well- versed: "His plan is to get you out of your land by his sorcery; then what is it ye counsel?"
So what the Quran attributes to God, including supernormal phenomena, Buddhism attributes to natural law.
On face value, for the purposes of morality, there is really little difference.
But in Buddhism, ultimately, the way things are described is mind-created rather than God-created.
If the mind can empty the mind, as the Sufis recommend, the mind can see all descriptive labels, including 'God', are mind-created.
The purpose of your visit is....?
As a guest in our home, it would be nice to know what motivates you to come in and occupy the comfy chair by the fire....
Why have you come calling, exactly?
I have actually read the Qur'an in its original Arabic (I took an evening class in Arabic while a student) and can understand most of it, in Arabic. What strikes me is the beauty and elegance of it, as a piece of literature. It reads beautifully. This aesthetism (which does not come across at all in English translation) is, I believe, the light of Qur'anic Islam. However, respectfully, it's a dim, smoky light because it's so clearly a construction, to put it kindly. It is nothing like the piercing ray of light of the World Honoured Buddha, who states things as they are, provides a clearly evidential basis for progression on the road to our enlightenment as individuals, and acknowledges basic truths such as impermanence.
When I read the Qur'an I found nothing equivalent to the Buddha eye. Whereas, when one reads the works of the Sufi masters this concept of the illusion of Maya, and the constructions of Mind, are clearly evident. For example, take this Persian quatrain by Hafez:
گفتـم که لبت, گفت لبم آب حیات
گفتم دهنت, گفت زهی حب نبات
گفتـم سخن تو, گفت حافظ گفتا
شادی همه لطیفه گویان صـلوات
This describes a conversation between two individuals, taking the view from a higher dimension of consciousness, free from the illusion of the duality of the conversationists. It seems PURELY Buddhist in every sense. Is there anything that can give us a similar higher perspective on consciousness, from Qur'an?
There is nothing the Quran can do to you that life won't. The Quran has some affect emotionally but its mostly a faith in the after life. Its a faith so its not about evidence or proof. A faith in God and the after life. A faith in creation and purpose. A faith in something bigger to come. For better or for worse.
But it ain't going to change your life around or it won't be faith anymore.
B: Why should I believe that? Please prove that.
A: Ok, here, look what is written inside..... "This Special Book is the word of God and must be accepted as true"
B: Oh, now I understand.
:smilec:
Judaism did not teach an afterlife. It taught men are like grass, from dust to dust.
But Jesus borrowed from India and taught about the heavenly realm via faith & love.
Then Mohamed (PBUM) combined Judaism and the Christian life after death.
This belief in life after death due to faith in one God or another is the root of religious mischief (in my opinion).
Which two religions believe in an eternal afterlife based on faith?
Which two religions have set fire to the earth over many centuries?
The dead sea scroll has references to heaven and hell and its older than the Old Testament.
The Dead Sea Scrolls, so vivid in their description of Satan (Belial) and his followers, is no less vivid in describing the ultimate destination of Belial and his followers:
“Be cursed without mercy because of the darkness of your deeds! Be damned in the shadowy place of everlasting fire!” (Community Rule, 1QS, Geza Vermes translation)
“And the visitation of all who walk in this spirit shall be a multitude of plagues by the hand of all the destroying angels, everlasting damnation by the avenging wrath of the fury of God, eternal torment and endless disgrace together with shameful extinction in the fire of the dark regions. The times of all their generations shall be spent in sorrowful mourning and in bitter misery and in calamities of darkness until they are destroyed without remnant or survivor.” (Community Rule, 1QS, Geza Vermes translation)
“Rise up, rise up, O God of Gods,
raise Thyself in mig{ht, King of Kings}! (4Q491)
May all the Sons of Darkness [scatter before Thee]
The light of Thy greatness [shall shine forth]
[on ‘go]ds’ and men.
It shall be like a fire burning
In the dark places of perdition;
It shall burn the sinners in the perdition of hell,
In an eternal blaze
…in all the eternal seasons” (War Scroll, Geza Vermes translation)
“And the gates [of Hell] shall open
[on all] the works of Vanity;
and the doors of the Pit shall close
on the conceivers of wickedness;
and the everlasting bars shall by bolted
on all the spirits of Naught” (Thanksgiving Hymn, Geza Vermes translation)
“…from your correction and you will establish yourselves to pronounce judgment ov[er…] and to see the faults of all the sinners of the ages…[to be cast] into the fire and the oceans and into all the cavities for…in the generations of truth.” (Testament of Qahat, 4Q542, Geza Vermes translation)
“…[and all the Sons] of Darkness will be dark. [For all the Sons of Light]…and by all their knowledge they will…and the Sons of Darkness will be burnt…For all folly and wicked[ness are dar]k, and all [pea]ce and truth are brigh[t].” (Testament of Amram, Geza Vermes translation)
http://www.sundayschoolcourses.com/helldevil/helldevilweb.htm#_Toc79054678
1QS 3:13-4:26 begins with a creation hymn declaring the sovereignty of God. It
emphasizes that creation is dependent upon God, and humankind is to rule over the earth
(3:15b-18). 1QS 3:18b-4:1 states that God has appointed two spirits for humankind so
that he would ‘walk with them until the moment of his visitation.’22 These spirits are ‘of
truth and deceit’ (3:18). Those who ‘walk the path of light’ are associated with the
‘Prince of Light’, whereas those who ‘walk the path of darkness’ follow the ‘Angel of
Darkness’ (3:20-21). The members of the sect are described as the ‘sons of light’
(3:13,24,25) and are contrasted with the ‘sons of deceit’ (3:20-25). However, members
of the sect sometimes stray from the ways of the light due to the Angel of Darkness: ‘all
their sins, their iniquities, their failings and their mutual deeds are under his dominion in
compliance with the mysteries of God, until his moment’ (3:22-23). Despite this, God
and the ‘angel of his truth’ will aid the sons of light (3:24) and, though he created both
spirits and ‘on them established all his deeds’ (3:25), he loves one and hates the other
(3:26-4:1).
http://www.deliriumsrealm.com/delirium/docs/DSSpaper.pdf
:hair:
Glad to have you on here.
Could you shed some light on the concept of abrogation in Islam at what implications that has for modern interpretations of the Quran? (Specifically Surah 9:27)
The Buddha taught religion exists on three levels: (1) morality; (2) mind (concentration); and (3) insight.
The Quran is merely morality. Any teaching about an afterlife is on the level of morality to encourage people to do good and avoid self harm.
Like Moses, Mohamed (PBOH) taught because the people did very evil things, such as bury girl children alive.
Mohamed taught those with no morality, with minds stuck in the animal realm. Buddha taught humans, with minds established in morality and angels, with minds stuck in heaven (jhana).
:smilec:
False. If the scrolls are older than the old testament, then why do they reference them. Get your facts straight if you are to make claims and now I question if you have even read or studied the scrolls. I would guess a big no.
BTW you cannot prove mystical beliefs by claiming, "because the Quran says so.
But I get in trouble when I say that about suttas. :tongue2:
That's what I was thinking.. Weird that he referenced the Dead Sea Scrolls rather than Mazdanean religion then Zervanism, after all that's the real origin of all that 'Prince of Darkness' evil genius duality business.
Same with the suttas, the suttas cannot prove mystical/superstitious points just by their status of being "what the buddha said"; they, like all claims, need to be both logical and sound to be true and provable.
I am guessing we are dealing with someone that is not very studied and good at copying and posting without coming up with original ideas.
If not, here goes:
Tree Huggers Rule!!!!!!!!
Tree huggers do rule when it comes to hugs but watch out for splinters.
@Fed- I saw that and am curious and skeptical of his motives as well.