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Yes, he suffered, like any human being would, because of his human body. He didn't cling to it, though. Trying to believe that you will achieve a state where you won't crave things is quite believable, but the same cannot be said for a state, in this life, where you don't suffer.
But craving is the cause of suffering, as advised in the 2nd noble truth.
But your posts states there can be suffering without craving.
The Buddha said:
"Similarly, O monks, there are here some foolish men who study the Teaching; having studied it, they do not wisely examine the purpose of those teachings. To those who do not wisely examine the purpose, these teachings will not yield insight. They study the Teaching only to use it for criticizing or for refuting others in disputation. They do not experience the (true) purpose for which they (ought to) study the Teaching. To them these teachings wrongly grasped, will bring harm and suffering for a long time. And why? Because of their wrong grasp of the teachings.
"Suffering, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for suffering? 'Birth' should be the reply.
"And what is the supporting condition for birth?. 'Existence' should be the reply.
"What is the supporting condition for existence? 'Clinging' should be the reply.
"What is the supporting condition for clinging? 'Craving' should be the reply.
The sutta is as follows:
...craving is the supporting condition for clinging, clinging is the supporting condition for existence, existence is the supporting condition for birth, birth is the supporting condition for suffering, suffering is the supporting condition for faith, faith is the supporting condition for joy, joy is the supporting condition for rapture, rapture is the supporting condition for tranquillity, tranquillity is the supporting condition for happiness, happiness is the supporting condition for concentration, concentration is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are, the knowledge and vision of things as they really are is the supporting condition for disenchantment, disenchantment is the supporting condition for dispassion, dispassion is the supporting condition for emancipation, and emancipation is the supporting condition for the knowledge of the destruction (of the cankers)."
Now if physical birth means there must be suffering, where can empanciption and the destruction of the cankers be found and experienced?
Following your logic, empancipation cannot be experience whilst being alive.
If that is the case, where can it be experienced?
If empanicipation cannot be experienced whilst being physically born, then the following teachings of the Buddha must be simply crazy:
23. The wise ones, ever meditative and steadfastly persevering, alone experience Nibbana, the incomparable freedom from bondage.
383. Exert yourself, O holy man! Cut off the stream (of craving), and discard sense desires. Knowing the destruction of all the conditioned things, become, O holy man, the knower of the Uncreated (Nibbana)!
‘What now is Nibbana? The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion: this friend is called Nibbana’.
‘The removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion is the designation for the element of Nibbana…. is the Deathless. The destruction of the taints [cankers] is spoken of in that way’.
Here, ruler of the gods, a bhikkhu has heard that nothing is worth clinging to. When a bhikkhu has heard nothing is worth clinging to, he directly knows everything; having directly known everything, he fully understands everything; having fully understood everything, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, he abides contemplating impermanence in those feelings, contemplating fading away, contemplating cessation, contemplating relinquishment. Contemplating thus, he does not cling to anything in the world. When he does not cling, he is not agitated. When he is not agitated, he personally attains Nibbana. He understands: 'What had to be done has been done'. Briefly, it is in this way, ruler of the gods, that a bhikkhu is liberated in the destruction of craving, one who has reached the ultimate end.<O:p</O:p
Also, following your logic, things like spiritual joy and spiritual tranquility are also suffering.
In brief, "birth" is something mental rather than physical. Your grasp of this teaching is merely intellectual rather than experiential.
The Buddha never said explicitly suffering comes from birth. The teaching you quote is merely abbreviated. The Buddha said suffering includes aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, gried & despair. For suffering to occur, there must be aging & death.
Now this aging & death is loss. A dead body cannot suffer. Further, human beings suffer everyday but are still alive.
The Buddha said:
"Similarly, O monks, there are here some foolish men who study the Teaching; having studied it, they do not wisely examine the purpose of those teachings. To those who do not wisely examine the purpose, these teachings will not yield insight. They study the Teaching only to use it for criticizing or for refuting others in disputation. They do not experience the (true) purpose for which they (ought to) study the Teaching. To them these teachings wrongly grasped, will bring harm and suffering for a long time. And why? Because of their wrong grasp of the teachings.
4. What is the Ignoble Truth of the Way Leading to the Cessation of Suffering? It is the Ignoble Onefold Path, that is to say: SUICIDE!!!!!
what makes the noble eightfold path noble, and the onefold path ignoble? this may be a ridiculously stupid thread, but maybe not.
Suicide is the coward's best choice regarding his/her suffering and desperation, and therefore it's an ignoble truth, as you call it. Death itself seems to be a solution when you don't want to battle anymore. But suicide in general causes much suffering. If reincarnation does exist , the karma earned by doing yourself a good hara-kiri will follow you in the next life "like the wheel will follow the foot of the ox". (I don't know what I've written here )
The causes of Buddha's birth come from his previous life, when he was not enlightened and still clung to things.
Birth is something mental. Birth is something that ends whilst one is still alive. In the Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta, it is stated birth ends when the eye sees the form, when the ear hears a sound, etc.
“On seeing a form with the eye, he is not passionate for it if it is pleasing; he is not angry at it if it is displeasing. He lives with attention to body established, with an immeasurable mind and he understands realistically the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder. Having abandoned favouring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels - whether pleasant or painful or neither-pleasant-nor-painful - he does not delight in that feeling, welcome it, or remain holding to it. As he does not do so, delight in feelings ceases in him. From the cessation of his delight comes cessation of clinging; from the cessation of clinging, the cessation of becoming; from the cessation of becoming, the cessation of birth; from the cessation of birth, ageing-&-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair cease. Thus is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering.<O:p</O:p
I told you this would boil down to rebirth, didn't I?
The teaching of the Buddha boils down to suffering & the cessation of suffering. In the Alagaddupama Sutta, the Buddha said:
"What I teach now as before, O monks, is suffering and the cessation of suffering."
In the same sutta, the Buddha also said:
"Similarly, O monks, there are here some foolish men who study the Teaching; having studied it, they do not wisely examine the purpose of those teachings. To those who do not wisely examine the purpose, these teachings will not yield insight. They study the Teaching only to use it for criticizing or for refuting others in disputation. They do not experience the (true) purpose for which they (ought to) study the Teaching. To them these teachings wrongly grasped, will bring harm and suffering for a long time. And why? Because of their wrong grasp of the teachings.
One aspect of emancipation is the emancipation from ignorance and defilements that was experienced by the Buddha during his lifetime (called sa upadiesa nibannadhatu, with residue remaining), the other is the emancipation from repeated existence attained with his passing away (anupadiesa nibbanadhatu).
(Iti 2.17; Iti 38)
Your interpretation of this teaching is not in accordance with the sutta. The sutta states:
"What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbana-element with residue left.
"Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant... completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbana-element with no residue left.
The residue is feeling, namely, experiencing what is agreeable & disagreeable, feeling pleasure & pain.
Being without residue is being without feeling, such as in the following sutta:
"Just as an oil lamp burns in dependence on oil & wick; and from the termination of the oil & wick — and from not being provided any other sustenance — it goes out unnourished; even so, when sensing a feeling terminating with the body, one discerns that 'I am sensing a feeling terminating with the body.' When sensing a feeling terminating with life, one discerns that 'I am sensing a feeling terminating with life.' One discerns that 'Upon the dissolution of the body, with the termination of life, all that is felt, not being relished, will grow cold right here.'
Whether my examination of the suttas is wise or not I don't know. It probably isn't, but if it wasn't for you I wouldn't have come across a lot of them, so thank you :^)
Wisdom comes from experience or spiritual insight. Your examination of the suttas is inaccurate (rather than "unwise") and merely intellectual.
I certainly take no joy in your stating I have given you a snake and you are grasping it in the wrong way.
The Buddha said:
"Suppose, monks, a man wants a snake, looks for a snake, goes in search of a snake. He then sees a large snake, and when he is grasping its body or its tail, the snake turns back on him and bites his hand or arm or some other limb of his. And because of that he suffers death or deadly pain. And why? Because of his wrong grasp of the snake.
I would look for a pleasant life, you know, the four noble truths would be less important than getting tickets for such and such concert, first class air tickets, the best hotels, bubble baths, being close to nature, spas.
The Buddha said:
"Similarly, O monks, there are here some foolish men who study the Teaching; having studied it, they do not wisely examine the purpose of those teachings. To those who do not wisely examine the purpose, these teachings will not yield insight. They study the Teaching only to use it for criticizing or for refuting others in disputation. They do not experience the (true) purpose for which they (ought to) study the Teaching. To them these teachings wrongly grasped, will bring harm and suffering for a long time. And why? Because of their wrong grasp of the teachings.
If I started freaking out I would look for a psychologist or psychiatrist, I would probably still do meditation.
The impression gained is you have little confidence is the Buddha-Dhamma. The Buddha said:
...craving is the supporting condition for clinging, clinging is the supporting condition for existence, existence is the supporting condition for birth, birth is the supporting condition for suffering, suffering is the supporting condition for faith, faith is the supporting condition for joy...
I wouldn't be bothered with The Noble Eightfold path because I already live by today's society ethical standards, and one can be perfectly content without worrying about religion.
The Eightfold Path is not about ethics. It is about ethics, samadhi & liberating insight.
How ethical your posts are is doubtful. You appear intent on tearing down the Buddha's teachings without having any genuine interest in them. Your posts give the impression of a voyueristic laboratory student who enjoys playing with medicine and making the medicine unfit to cure the sick.
Jesus said:
I have come for the sick and not for the respectible.
Maybe, on another approach, when I felt bad, I would just a read few things about Buddhism, you know. "Oh the cause of my suffering is such and such and I have complete control over it. I got canned: not suffering; I got dumped: not suffering; I got abused: not suffering; I got yelled at: not suffering; I screwed up and fell sorry: no suffering; I am dying: not suffering; I am poor: not suffering; I am ridiculed: not suffering; Ihatemy job: not suffering". That would make me feel a bit better, and I would start doing it over and over, like everything else that pleases the mind. In truth, all I would be doing is pleasing my senses (or my mind) with colorful ideas of heaven on earth, and carrying the same burden and doing the same things, this time with a smile on my face, because now I would have a carrot in front of me called enlightenment.
Who was it that said religion is the opium of the people? :^P
Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. [K. Marx]
The impression gained is religion is not an opiate (medicine) for you but an amusement and play thing. For some, opium is a cure for illness and for others opium becomes a hellish heroin addiction.
The Buddha said:
"Similarly, O monks, there are here some foolish men who study the Teaching; having studied it, they do not wisely examine the purpose of those teachings. To those who do not wisely examine the purpose, these teachings will not yield insight. They study the Teaching only to use it for criticizing or for refuting others in disputation. They do not experience the (true) purpose for which they (ought to) study the Teaching. To them these teachings wrongly grasped, will bring harm and suffering for a long time. And why? Because of their wrong grasp of the teachings.
I have a pain in the shoulder that comes from time to time and it fu**ing hurts. I am not attached to it, it just pops up when I least expect, but I can't call it 'not suffering'. It is suffering. That is my direct experience. :P
Your experience is not the experience of a Buddha. It is your experience.
You yourself have quoted suttas above about the two kinds of Nibbana, the first being Nibbana where there remains pleasant & painful feelings.
The Dhamma has advised humanity the end of suffering comes with the destruction of craving (rather than feeling).
The suttas have said it is because of not understanding and not penetrating Dependent Origination that human beings are like a tangled skein, a knotted ball of string.
It is your duty to untangle and unknot the Buddha-Dhamma rather than to make tangles and knots out of the Buddha-Dhamma.
The Buddha said:
"What do you think bhikkhus, which is more, this little bit of soil in my fingernail or the great earth?"
<O:p</O:p
"Venerable Sir, the great earth is more. The little bit of soil that the Blessed One has taken up in his fingernail is trifling. Compared to the great earth, the little bit of soil that the Blessed One has taken up in his fingernail is not calculable, does not bear comparison, does not amount even to a fraction."
<O:p</O:p
"So too bhikkhus, those beings are few who, when they pass away as human beings, are reborn amongst human beings. But those beings are more numerous who, when they pass away as human beings, are reborn in hell."
<O:p</O:p
"For what reason?"
<O:p</O:p
"Because, bhikkhus, they have not seen the Four Noble Truths."
<O:p</O:p
"Therefore bhikkhus, an effort should be made to understand: 'This is suffering, this is the origin of suffering, this is the quenching of suffering and this is the way leading to the quencing of suffering'. "
<O:p</O:p
SN 56.102
In other words, it appears the Buddha has declared here, ethics alone will not save us from hell (dukkha).
So to be free of suffering cannot be something in this lifetime, because being a human being suck balls
The Buddha advised:
If through revulsion towards ignorance, through its fading away and cessation, one is liberated by non-clinging, one is fit to be called one who has attained Nibbana in this very life.
SN 12.16
Contemplating thus, he does not cling to anything in the world. When he does not cling, he is not agitated. When he is not agitated, he personally attains Nibbana.
MN 37
Having savored the taste of solitude and peace (of Nibbana), pain-free and stainless he becomes, drinking deep the taste of the bliss of the Truth.
Comments
But craving is the cause of suffering, as advised in the 2nd noble truth.
But your posts states there can be suffering without craving.
The Buddha said:
Following your logic, empancipation cannot be experience whilst being alive.
If that is the case, where can it be experienced?
If empanicipation cannot be experienced whilst being physically born, then the following teachings of the Buddha must be simply crazy:
Also, following your logic, things like spiritual joy and spiritual tranquility are also suffering.
In brief, "birth" is something mental rather than physical. Your grasp of this teaching is merely intellectual rather than experiential.
The Buddha never said explicitly suffering comes from birth. The teaching you quote is merely abbreviated. The Buddha said suffering includes aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, gried & despair. For suffering to occur, there must be aging & death.
Now this aging & death is loss. A dead body cannot suffer. Further, human beings suffer everyday but are still alive.
The Buddha said:
Suicide is the coward's best choice regarding his/her suffering and desperation, and therefore it's an ignoble truth, as you call it. Death itself seems to be a solution when you don't want to battle anymore. But suicide in general causes much suffering. If reincarnation does exist , the karma earned by doing yourself a good hara-kiri will follow you in the next life "like the wheel will follow the foot of the ox". (I don't know what I've written here
Birth is something mental. Birth is something that ends whilst one is still alive. In the Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta, it is stated birth ends when the eye sees the form, when the ear hears a sound, etc. The teaching of the Buddha boils down to suffering & the cessation of suffering. In the Alagaddupama Sutta, the Buddha said: In the same sutta, the Buddha also said:
Being without residue is being without feeling, such as in the following sutta: None of this has anything to do with rebirth.
One Nibbana is Nibbana with feeling and the other Nibbana is Nibbana without feeling.
:smilec:
I certainly take no joy in your stating I have given you a snake and you are grasping it in the wrong way.
The Buddha said:
:hrm:
How ethical your posts are is doubtful. You appear intent on tearing down the Buddha's teachings without having any genuine interest in them. Your posts give the impression of a voyueristic laboratory student who enjoys playing with medicine and making the medicine unfit to cure the sick.
Jesus said:
The Buddha said:
The impression gained is religion is not an opiate (medicine) for you but an amusement and play thing. For some, opium is a cure for illness and for others opium becomes a hellish heroin addiction.
The Buddha said:
You yourself have quoted suttas above about the two kinds of Nibbana, the first being Nibbana where there remains pleasant & painful feelings.
The Dhamma has advised humanity the end of suffering comes with the destruction of craving (rather than feeling).
The suttas have said it is because of not understanding and not penetrating Dependent Origination that human beings are like a tangled skein, a knotted ball of string.
It is your duty to untangle and unknot the Buddha-Dhamma rather than to make tangles and knots out of the Buddha-Dhamma.
The Buddha said:
In other words, it appears the Buddha has declared here, ethics alone will not save us from hell (dukkha).
:smilec:
The Buddha advised:
:buck:
Nirvana is the cessation of suffering however your mind has not experienced it.
This one cannot assume because there actually is the element of Nirvana.
Well spoken.
:rolleyes: