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Why avoid suffering?

NeuromancerNeuromancer
edited April 2010 in Buddhism Basics
Hello everyone. I realise that the answer to my question is probably a personal resolution and not a Buddhist precept, but I would still like to ask. Why do you seek to live without suffering? I see joy and pain not as a carrot and a stick, but simply as two different forms of thought. I haven't been able to resolve to seek either one, and I would like some opinions about your personal motivations. Everyone whom I've asked IRL just looks at me like I'm crazy, and says that it's so obvious that your goal in life should be to find happiness and enjoy yourself. What you think?

Comments

  • PietroPumokinPietroPumokin
    edited February 2010
    well, if unhappiness makes you happy...
  • NeuromancerNeuromancer
    edited February 2010
    It doesn't. But nor does it make me try to find ways to ease my suffering or return to a happier state, because I can't see any reasons to do so.
  • ValtielValtiel Veteran
    edited February 2010
    Then don't.
  • NeuromancerNeuromancer
    edited February 2010
    I guess I hadn't considered that possibility. This mindset is fairly unstable, though. I imagine that I'll eventually resolve to be content.
  • not1not2not1not2 Veteran
    edited February 2010
    Neuromancer wrote: »
    Hello everyone. I realise that the answer to my question is probably a personal resolution and not a Buddhist precept, but I would still like to ask. Why do you seek to live without suffering? I see joy and pain not as a carrot and a stick, but simply as two different forms of thought. I haven't been able to resolve to seek either one, and I would like some opinions about your personal motivations. Everyone whom I've asked IRL just looks at me like I'm crazy, and says that it's so obvious that your goal in life should be to find happiness and enjoy yourself. What you think?

    In buddhism, sukkha and dukkha (happiness/unhappiness or pleasure/displeasure) are a dichotomy and really go round and round on each other. Samsara is marked by our retreat from dukkha and our clinging to sukkha. The Buddhist approach is to simply view what is and not become trapped in the mental formations that are generated by our experiences. This leads to a greater freedom and lightness in our lives. So, in a sense, you are correct in not wanting to avoid pain/suffering/displeasure. The avoidance itself is part of the clinging state of dukkha and leads to rebirths.

    That said, the Buddha essentially taught two things. Suffering (dukkha) and the way out of that suffering. All things being equal, being free of suffering is arguably a better way to live and is therefore worthy of working towards. But this freedom from or cessation of suffering is not the same thing as simple pleasure or happiness. It is much more real and lasting. It is not based on temporal conditions and is therefore not a cause of anxiety and stress.

    Anyway, hopefully I haven't muddied things up with my explanation. Let me know if any of that didn't make sense or was confusing.
  • not1not2not1not2 Veteran
    edited February 2010
    Neuromancer wrote: »
    I guess I hadn't considered that possibility. This mindset is fairly unstable, though. I imagine that I'll eventually resolve to be content.

    I'd say contentment is closer to the goal of buddhism than happiness. It implies an acceptance of the whole of reality that is not present when a person merely chases after happiness.
  • ValtielValtiel Veteran
    edited February 2010
    *tosses cookie at not1not2*
  • not1not2not1not2 Veteran
    edited February 2010
    *noms*
  • NeuromancerNeuromancer
    edited February 2010
    not1not2 wrote: »
    In buddhism, sukkha and dukkha (happiness/unhappiness or pleasure/displeasure) are a dichotomy and really go round and round on each other. Samsara is marked by our retreat from dukkha and our clinging to sukkha. The Buddhist approach is to simply view what is and not become trapped in the mental formations that are generated by our experiences. This leads to a greater freedom and lightness in our lives. So, in a sense, you are correct in not wanting to avoid pain/suffering/displeasure. The avoidance itself is part of the clinging state of dukkha and leads to rebirths.

    That said, the Buddha essentially taught two things. Suffering (dukkha) and the way out of that suffering. All things being equal, being free of suffering is arguably a better way to live and is therefore worthy of working towards. But this freedom from or cessation of suffering is not the same thing as simple pleasure or happiness. It is much more real and lasting. It is not based on temporal conditions and is therefore not a cause of anxiety and stress.

    Anyway, hopefully I haven't muddied things up with my explanation. Let me know if any of that didn't make sense or was confusing.

    Thank you, that was very illuminating. However, I still don't see that being free of suffering is a better way to live. Perhaps time and experience will convince me.
    not1not2 wrote: »
    I'd say contentment is closer to the goal of buddhism than happiness. It implies an acceptance of the whole of reality that is not present when a person merely chases after happiness.

    Thank you also. I think I understand the difference. Happiness is a continuation of reaching in that it is the conclusion of a flawed attempt to manipulate circumstances out of personal control, while contentment is a state of mind is self-contained.
  • ansannaansanna Veteran
    edited February 2010
    N: Why do you seek to live without suffering? I see joy and pain not as a carrot and a stick, but simply as two different forms of thought
    but them your joy and comfort are still temporary , as they are based on a relative condition present, once those condition are not there, you swing back to the unhappiness.
    On the contrast - Buddhadharma points to the state known as absolute happiness that are not bond by any relative condition being present
  • not1not2not1not2 Veteran
    edited February 2010
    Neuromancer wrote: »
    Thank you, that was very illuminating. However, I still don't see that being free of suffering is a better way to live. Perhaps time and experience will convince me.

    It's better simply because it's better. If you don't notice the qualitative difference in your experience that results from practice and insight, then I'm not going to convince you of that though.
  • NeuromancerNeuromancer
    edited February 2010
    ansanna wrote: »
    but them your joy and comfort are still temporary , as they are based on a relative condition present, once those condition are not there, you swing back to the unhappiness.
    On the contrast - Buddhadharma points to the state known as absolute happiness that are not bond by any relative condition being present

    I agree, and if my goal were to achieve absolute happiness I've no doubt that I would not chase after temporary distractions.
    not1not2 wrote: »
    It's better simply because it's better. If you don't notice the qualitative difference in your experience that results from practice and insight, then I'm not going to convince you of that though.

    I do see the difference, but to define one state as better simply because we seem naturally inclined to gravitate towards it seems to me to be a tautology. I could equally decide that great pain is 'better' than great happiness, and seek to always be in pain.
  • bloodywaterfoxbloodywaterfox
    edited February 2010
    Perspective perspective perspective:D Doesnt make me any different than you:D

    I used to think just like you at one point in my life. Almost everything reminds me of how I once was.

    Find where you are most comfortable in life, experiment and play if need be. Your experences will bring you to where you will be the most happy:D

    I wish you luck and may your journey find its path!:D
  • CittaCitta Veteran
    edited February 2010
    I think anyone who sets out on the Buddhist Path to become happy has a shock sooner or later. Its not that Buddhist practice does not ease suffering it does, but it is radical. It does so from the roots up. Which means that for some people at least their suffering is more, not less, clear to them. They might even experience that as more suffering. The reality is more to do with the fact that when we become aware of Dukkha we see its all pervading nature. The Zen teachers use a metaphor. They say that meditation practice is like a thorn that we use to remove a deeply embedded thorn. When the first thorn is removed we can throw both thorns away. But its not quick or easy. The goal is worth it but it costs. Go into it with your eyes open.
  • blueskybluesky
    edited February 2010
    It seems to me you need both. You need some degree of suffering in life to appreciate not suffering.
  • not1not2not1not2 Veteran
    edited February 2010
    Neuromancer wrote: »
    I do see the difference, but to define one state as better simply because we seem naturally inclined to gravitate towards it seems to me to be a tautology. I could equally decide that great pain is 'better' than great happiness, and seek to always be in pain.

    All things being equal, we might as well move towards what we perceive to be a superior condition. You ask 'why?'; I ask 'why not?' I could use your exact same argument against what you just said and have it be equally, if not more, valid than your point.
  • NeuromancerNeuromancer
    edited February 2010
    Again, I thank you all for the responses and insights into how to end suffering, but why do you each, personally, choose to attempt to end your suffering?
    not1not2 wrote: »
    All things being equal, we might as well move towards what we perceive to be a superior condition. You ask 'why?'; I ask 'why not?' I could use your exact same argument against what you just said and have it be equally, if not more, valid than your point.

    I see. I think that our opinions diverge because I don't consider any state of mind to be superior to any other. Admittedly, I seem to be strange in this regard and perhaps both viewpoints are valid. I'm not trying to make a point, I'm honestly unsure of the things I'm asking.
  • bloodywaterfoxbloodywaterfox
    edited February 2010
    Citta wrote: »
    I think anyone who sets out on the Buddhist Path to become happy has a shock sooner or later. Its not that Buddhist practice does not ease suffering it does, but it is radical. It does so from the roots up. Which means that for some people at least their suffering is more, not less, clear to them. They might even experience that as more suffering. The reality is more to do with the fact that when we become aware of Dukkha we see its all pervading nature. The Zen teachers use a metaphor. They say that meditation practice is like a thorn that we use to remove a deeply embedded thorn. When the first thorn is removed we can throw both thorns away. But its not quick or easy. The goal is worth it but it costs. Go into it with your eyes open.

    I really enjoyed that metaphor! Thank you! And thank you for your words, they have given me something to think about:D
  • CittaCitta Veteran
    edited February 2010
    Nice to meet you too Thomas.
  • EricEric
    edited February 2010
    Would you know joy if there was no pain ??? I believe in:There is no light without darkness,there is no joy without pain ect. ect.

    I wish you all the best:Eric...........
  • RenGalskapRenGalskap Veteran
    edited February 2010
    Neuromancer wrote: »
    ... I don't consider any state of mind to be superior to any other.
    That's an important part of the practice of mindfulness, to accept your current state of mind, including viewpoints, without judging it.
  • not1not2not1not2 Veteran
    edited February 2010
    RenGalskap wrote: »
    That's an important part of the practice of mindfulness, to accept your current state of mind, including viewpoints, without judging it.

    While it's important to not be attached to any particular state of mind, there are definitely states that are considered superior. There are higher states of concentration and then there is the liberated mind. Now, you could say that Buddha Mind is ordinary mind, but none of us at all would be on this path if there weren't better states of being to achieve.
  • EricEric
    edited February 2010
    I believe it is all relative to the person.If you don´t think so you start to judge.Only ´god´ can judge.I do not believe in god but I hope you understand what I mean.

    All the best....Greetings from Holland..Eric...:)
  • SimplifySimplify Veteran
    edited February 2010
    Isn't the normal condition of people to avoid suffering?

    I thought part of Buddhism is to stop running from fear, discomfort and suffering and look at it straight in the eye.
  • EricEric
    edited February 2010
    You are right,nobody wants to suffer.But if you do not know what is "bad" you would not appreciate what is nice.That is so in most things in life,I believe.Ying/yang.
    All the best;Eric.
  • BrotherBobBrotherBob
    edited February 2010
    I imagine it as freeing myself from slavery to suffering, about knowing/feeling the dukkha and being okay or feeling sukkha and being equally okay. Not trying to avoid one or chase after the other.

    Happy to Happy not to!! :D
  • SimplifySimplify Veteran
    edited February 2010
    don't try to hard :eek:
  • BrotherBobBrotherBob
    edited February 2010
    CORRECT!! :bowdown: Humor's always needed! :rockon:
  • ravkesravkes Veteran
    edited February 2010
    Investigate what this phenomena we conditionally call happiness and suffering is, you'll be in for a surprise. Question EVERYTHING. That is all.
  • satxsatx
    edited March 2010
    I think suffering can be a positive thing because it can encourage us to improve ourselves, or the world around us. Having said that, one can become trapped in suffering and this is never a good thing. Use suffering as a tool but do not let it consume you
  • BrotherBobBrotherBob
    edited March 2010
    you got it! Dance with suffering!!
  • AnupassīAnupassī
    edited March 2010
    As I understand it, the goal is to not celebrate, curse, or even remain in the duality of dukkha and sukha, but to apprehend that which is beyond the conditionality of saṃsāra: the Deathless! :)
  • EricEric
    edited March 2010
    I believe there is no joy if one has not endured suffering(Ying-Yang).BUT one can`t seek a life without suffering.I know 1 or 2 people who have had much more than their fair share.(Then it`s a luxury to be able to "seek/hide from" suffering,it`s impossible).
    When a person has suffered so much that you "can`t think straight" it goes from being a concious "thing" to being a unconcious burden over which you have no or little control.
    I believe you can look at things like that if you have never endured REAL suffering.
    Well...It`s only my view....
    I wish everybody all the best from Holland;Eric.
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited March 2010
    We were taught not to avoid suffering, that avoiding suffering (shifting position in your chair, another trip to the fridge) is what we are learning not to do. What is a long retreat consisting of hours and hours of relentless sitting? It is pleasant for a while but then it is all about no-escape from suffering, no wiggle room. When you finally cannot run from suffering, cannot shift an inch, you die to the suffering. Then something opens.
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    edited March 2010
    Neuromancer wrote: »
    Hello everyone. I realise that the answer to my question is probably a personal resolution and not a Buddhist precept, but I would still like to ask. Why do you seek to live without suffering?


    Because suffering isn't very nice.:p

    P
  • NeuromancerNeuromancer
    edited April 2010
    Thank you everyone for your responses. I will consider them carefully.
  • tim45174tim45174
    edited April 2010
    I think I see where you are coming from, Neuromancer. I have often thought that 'what doesnt kill you makes you stronger, so what is the point of avoiding hardships?'

    But the Buddha didn't support avoidance, and instead wanted to make people aware that suffering is inevitable in life and eventually everyone dies.

    I think suffering can produce beneficial outcomes, but I do not think that it is psychologically healthy for one to be too attached to emotions of suffering or happiness.
  • FoibleFullFoibleFull Canada Veteran
    edited April 2010
    Neuromancer wrote: »
    Hello everyone. I realise that the answer to my question is probably a personal resolution and not a Buddhist precept, but I would still like to ask. Why do you seek to live without suffering? I see joy and pain not as a carrot and a stick, but simply as two different forms of thought. I haven't been able to resolve to seek either one, and I would like some opinions about your personal motivations. Everyone whom I've asked IRL just looks at me like I'm crazy, and says that it's so obvious that your goal in life should be to find happiness and enjoy yourself. What you think?

    One more country to hear from ...

    I do not seek to live without suffering. The wish to avoid suffering is as much a form of attachment as the wish for happiness.

    When it is said that Buddhism teaches freedom from suffering, it must be understood that this is freedom from the attachment of wanting to be happy as well as freedom from the aversion for suffering. As long as we are caught up in either, we are not free.
  • EricEric
    edited April 2010
    FoibleFull thanks for putting it in clear words for me,about suffering.That is why I like Zen-Buddhism,no "extra`s".I found the text;avoid suffering pure ****,and now for someone to make it clear in a few words THANKS ! (I tried to figure it out and got 1111 explanations !!!).
    Greetings from a windy Holland;Eric.
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