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Also, it's important to understand the teachings in the way they are presented. You can make your own personal decisions from there. There is no need to change what the Sutras state and the traditions state. You are free to disagree with interpretations. So, if we took these old scriptures and threw away all the meaning that was intended for them to begin with, that would be throwing away the original meaning.
Like I've said multiple times. You are free to believe what you want, but don't be fooled into thinking you've made a very good case to the rest of us.
You may not want any part in it but i don't wish to argue with you anymore. If you would like to discus dharma as "virgin buddhist" with me that would be great:)
Mat, The problem with this request is that you are not nor do you wish to be any kind of 'Buddhist'. Your stated purpose for expressing yourself at this Buddhist Forum' is, 'to chat and philosophize.' Not to gain any real depth of understanding or knowledge of the discipline of Buddhism, which may only be gained with study and practice and not in discursive debate.
So, I read the request 'If you would like to discus dharma as "virgin buddhist" with me that would be great' as deceptive.
On the other hand, are you stating that you wish to actually become a Buddhist?
If so, I'm really happy to discuss the practical aspects of training based on the Buddhadharma, as a member of the Fourfold Sangha here.
You may not want any part in it but i don't wish to argue with you anymore. If you would like to discus dharma as "virgin buddhist" with me that would be great:)
Without doubt I am clutching at straws. This is the most compelling evidence I have found explicit in the suttas so I want to test it to the max
For example, in the passages before he is talking to ananda about all tehse people who are at diffrnt stages in terms of rebirth. This seems completly supporting rebirth. But then see how the Buddha hands over the subject to say "Thinking about death in any of these realm is troubling"..... and then... then coms the bombshell, he gives this gift to Ananda that will stop all such troubles.
I think this may be the point where the Buddha, without conflict, hands over from the Hindu view to the rebirthless buddhist view without. From andadas concerns about rebirth of him and others to the end of the toubles. How?
by simply renoucing rebirth.
There is no long teaching on meditation and philosophy, it is a simple defninitve gesture in two parts, I declare that this is my last birth.
I know this is my last birth.
Its beautiful. Nobody gets hurt.
Well, I can agree with you that you're clutching at straws. The Sutta states (as I quoted on the previous page:
They stopped at a place called the Brick Hall in a little village called Nadika. It happened that some monks and lay devotees had passed away at this village, and Venerable Ananda wanted to know the future states of those who had passed away.
The Buddha revealed that as they had been practising what he had taught, all of them had attained at least one of the stages of sainthood. He continued, "Now, it is natural for human beings to die; but if you ask this question each time a person dies, it wearies me. So I will give you a discourse called 'The Mirror of the Dharma or Truth'. With this, a noble disciple can predict for himself, 'There is no more suffering for me, no more evil and low states. I am a sotapanna and I am not subject to falling back to the lower states. I shall be assured of final enlightenment.'
"What, O Ananda, is the Mirror of the Dharma? Herein a noble disciple has absolute confidence in the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha. Because of his confidence, he spends much time to reflect or think about the great qualities of the Triple Gem. These reflections will help him develop the great qualities within himself and the power to concentrate the mind. These results will help him attain the first stage of sainthood (sotapanna).
"Possessing this Mirror of Dharma, a noble disciple shall be able to predict for himself that he shall not fall back to lower states like hell, the animal world, the ghost world and other sorrowful and unhappy states."
The meaning is pretty obvious here. The Buddha simply stated it was wearisome to answer questions about the future states of those who passed away and so he said, reflect on the mirror of the Triple Gem (Buddha, Sangha, Dharma), develop single-pointed concentration and figure out the future states yourself. This is actually in support of the idea of rebirth and the fact that, as you state, this is your "the most compelling evidence (you) have found explicit in the suttas," just demonstrates the weakness of your case.
Also, it specifically names the lower states the Buddha is referring to. The higher realms are not mentioned and you're simply incorrect if you think Deva Realms, Pure Abodes, etc are somehow excluded.
Well, I can agree with you that you're clutching at straws. The Sutta states (as I quoted on the previous page:
The meaning is pretty obvious here. The Buddha simply stated it was wearisome to answer questions about the future states of those who passed away and so he said, reflect on the mirror of the Triple Gem (Buddha, Sangha, Dharma), develop single-pointed concentration and figure out the future states yourself. This is actually in support of the idea of rebirth and the fact that, as you state, this is your "the most compelling evidence (you) have found explicit in the suttas," just demonstrates the weakness of your case.
Also, it specifically names the lower states the Buddha is referring to. The higher realms are not mentioned and you're simply incorrect if you think Deva Realms, Pure Abodes, etc are somehow excluded.
As said that was just my reading of it. Your take on it doesnt convince me either:)
What's so unconvincing about my interpretation? That's the plain meaning of the words used. I guess I'm just not understanding how you doubt the plain meaning and yet adhere to your very non-plain interpretation.
What's so unconvincing about my interpretation? That's the plain meaning of the words used. I guess I'm just not understanding how you doubt the plain meaning and yet adhere to your very non-plain interpretation.
We both have blinkers:) Thats what doctrine and dogma give us. We get so entrenched in our views that we don't see the open possibilties that are contrary to our view.
Buddha , Dharma , Sanga, Doctrine, Dogma<<< Those last two wern't there in the time of The Buddha.
I am not interested in your view of a sutta that might be 100% myth and certainly is not 100% truth.
Do you not see how futile that is? How much time we have wasted over this?
Its destructive not constructive and I am sorry for my part in it.
So, from a practical point of view, I imagine contemplating how we train to understand and know the answer to this?
Certainly, we have words, purported to be from the Buddha, we've labelled as the the "Marks" and Impermanence is one of those marks.
So, I imagine training to accomplish stable single-pointed concentration (samadhi) in order to embrace and penetrate the concept of impermanence for the purpose of accomplishing a deep investigation and verification of it's truth with the discipline of contemplation.
In this contemplative state of mind I hold impermanence in mindfulness as I interact with stuff happening throughout the day and ask myself repeatedly, "how does this express impermanence?" "how does this illuminate impermanence?" It's kinda like putting something in a crucible and applying the heat of focused consciousness, unobstructed by preconceptions.
From this disciplined practice an answer may arise, and usually does in my own experience. I don't have to look for it.
So, Mat, that's my practical recommendation, based on my interpretation of what it means to live by the Buddha's teachings.
We both have blinkers:) Thats what doctrine and dogma give us. We get so entrenched in our views that we don't see the open possibilties that are contrary to our view.
Buddha , Dharma , Sanga, Doctrine, Dogma<<< Those last two wern't there in the time of The Buddha.
I am not interested in your view of a sutta that might be 100% myth and certainly is not 100% truth.
Do you not see how futile that is? How much time we have wasted over this?
Its destructive not constructive and I am sorry for my part in it.
You realize that Dharma means the teachings of the Buddha. You can say that the sutras are myth, but that doesn't change what they say, imo.
N: You can say that the sutras are myth, but that doesn't change what they say, imo
S9: The greatest thing about what the Buddha said is that Truth wasn’t a one-time event that happened in ancient times, one that we will have to take Buddha’s word for because we just weren’t around to see it.
Truth, if it is Truth, is happening right now, right here. If we look really closely, and perhaps a little deeper than we usually do, with some discrimination on our part, we can see it for our selves in this very moment. This is the rock we personally can build on.
S9: One of the first things you learn when studying logic is never to use the word 'ALL' when asserting something, because "as sure as night follows day" some sucker will find an exception. ; ^ )
Yet, I think we can agree that you don’t have to be a genius to see that most everything we run into SEEMS to be impermanent. So we don’t need to study for years and get a PhD to know this.
Of course, the longer we look at this impermanence, and see it for what it is,the quick it will put the lie to a great deal that we thought we knew about life. In fact, it rips the ground right out from beneath the egos little kingdom. This will give us a blessed new perspective on things. (Right View?)
I daresay, if we never knew any other piece of wisdom to use as our ‘Sword of Discrimination,” impermanence could easily shatter all of illusions hold on us bound.
So like you have so rightly put it, living Buddhism is our best chance for Liberation.
I mean it is is true of all possible consistent worlds:)
I cannot doubt this core Dharma, I have tried, harder than most I would imagine.
As you know I see no sense in relative truth.
Mat
Ok. That is roughly the response I was expecting. Thanks. You and I cannot have a fruitful debate because we do not share any common reference point, or common language. This is interesting. Usually there is some kind of common reference point. But there isnt one here.
Ok. That is roughly the response I was expecting. Thanks. You and I cannot have a fruitful debate because we do not share any common reference point, or common language. This is interesting. Usually there is some kind of common reference point. But there isnt one here.
Hey Richard:)
Sure, we cant debate then. Check out the Virgin Buddhit thread and see if you would like to join in that. It wont be debate as much as exploration:)
with in breath 'anicca, dukka, anatta'
with out breath 'may all sentient beings be with right understanding and able to be enlightened'
at the end of meditation
it comes into the mind
'any experience is a furit of various causes
anything or anyone is a take and give relationship
therefore
it is wise to bless anyone comes into mind with metta, karuna, muditha, or upekka
whether it will be metta or karuna or muditha or upekka depends on the type of relationship we have with the person comes into mind'
hope we could see the relevence of the above to the discussion of this thread
Comments
You may not want any part in it but i don't wish to argue with you anymore. If you would like to discus dharma as "virgin buddhist" with me that would be great:)
So, I read the request 'If you would like to discus dharma as "virgin buddhist" with me that would be great' as deceptive.
On the other hand, are you stating that you wish to actually become a Buddhist?
If so, I'm really happy to discuss the practical aspects of training based on the Buddhadharma, as a member of the Fourfold Sangha here.
Do you have any such practical questions?
*rolls eyes*
Then you are paranoid. why the whatvers would I want to spend so much time here to deceive these internet strangers?
Do you really think thats how peoples minds work?
yes, a Virgin Buddhist. Not tehrevada or zen or shinto en.
I want to be a buddhist like the Buddha taught. he taught thousands . I want to be like one of those,
know what they knew.
So thats that.
Thats the kind of buddhist I am. Your zen, im virgin.
Unto each there own
Peace
Mat
Yes, but from first principles or not at all with me:)
Mat
Which practical principle do you wish to discuss?
I guess as Buddhists we dont really see a distintion between praictice and doctrine so lets start at the very basics:
Are all things impermanent?
Should we start a new thread ?
Mat
Well, I can agree with you that you're clutching at straws. The Sutta states (as I quoted on the previous page:
The meaning is pretty obvious here. The Buddha simply stated it was wearisome to answer questions about the future states of those who passed away and so he said, reflect on the mirror of the Triple Gem (Buddha, Sangha, Dharma), develop single-pointed concentration and figure out the future states yourself. This is actually in support of the idea of rebirth and the fact that, as you state, this is your "the most compelling evidence (you) have found explicit in the suttas," just demonstrates the weakness of your case.
Also, it specifically names the lower states the Buddha is referring to. The higher realms are not mentioned and you're simply incorrect if you think Deva Realms, Pure Abodes, etc are somehow excluded.
As said that was just my reading of it. Your take on it doesnt convince me either:)
Anyways, its been stressfull:)
peace
We both have blinkers:) Thats what doctrine and dogma give us. We get so entrenched in our views that we don't see the open possibilties that are contrary to our view.
Buddha , Dharma , Sanga, Doctrine, Dogma<<< Those last two wern't there in the time of The Buddha.
I am not interested in your view of a sutta that might be 100% myth and certainly is not 100% truth.
Do you not see how futile that is? How much time we have wasted over this?
Its destructive not constructive and I am sorry for my part in it.
Are all things impermanent?
So, from a practical point of view, I imagine contemplating how we train to understand and know the answer to this?
Certainly, we have words, purported to be from the Buddha, we've labelled as the the "Marks" and Impermanence is one of those marks.
So, I imagine training to accomplish stable single-pointed concentration (samadhi) in order to embrace and penetrate the concept of impermanence for the purpose of accomplishing a deep investigation and verification of it's truth with the discipline of contemplation.
In this contemplative state of mind I hold impermanence in mindfulness as I interact with stuff happening throughout the day and ask myself repeatedly, "how does this express impermanence?" "how does this illuminate impermanence?" It's kinda like putting something in a crucible and applying the heat of focused consciousness, unobstructed by preconceptions.
From this disciplined practice an answer may arise, and usually does in my own experience. I don't have to look for it.
So, Mat, that's my practical recommendation, based on my interpretation of what it means to live by the Buddha's teachings.
You realize that Dharma means the teachings of the Buddha. You can say that the sutras are myth, but that doesn't change what they say, imo.
Let me see what you are proposing here.
Are you saying that we could take a look at Reality with a “Beginner’s Mind?”
By this I mean, pretend there was no Buddha yet, and see what we can see personally?
Warm Regards,
S9
N: You can say that the sutras are myth, but that doesn't change what they say, imo
S9: The greatest thing about what the Buddha said is that Truth wasn’t a one-time event that happened in ancient times, one that we will have to take Buddha’s word for because we just weren’t around to see it.
Truth, if it is Truth, is happening right now, right here. If we look really closely, and perhaps a little deeper than we usually do, with some discrimination on our part, we can see it for our selves in this very moment. This is the rock we personally can build on.
Respectfully,
S9
.
__________________
B: Are all things impermanent?
S9: One of the first things you learn when studying logic is never to use the word 'ALL' when asserting something, because "as sure as night follows day" some sucker will find an exception. ; ^ )
Yet, I think we can agree that you don’t have to be a genius to see that most everything we run into SEEMS to be impermanent. So we don’t need to study for years and get a PhD to know this.
Of course, the longer we look at this impermanence, and see it for what it is,the quick it will put the lie to a great deal that we thought we knew about life. In fact, it rips the ground right out from beneath the egos little kingdom. This will give us a blessed new perspective on things. (Right View?)
I daresay, if we never knew any other piece of wisdom to use as our ‘Sword of Discrimination,” impermanence could easily shatter all of illusions hold on us bound.
So like you have so rightly put it, living Buddhism is our best chance for Liberation.
Respectfully,
S9
.
That was Mat's wording/question, i copied it from his post, sorry if i didn't use quote marks.
i imagine i may only know impermanence through practice. it'll be most obvious!!!
Hey Richard:)
Sure, we cant debate then. Check out the Virgin Buddhit thread and see if you would like to join in that. It wont be debate as much as exploration:)
Mat
with in breath 'anicca, dukka, anatta'
with out breath 'may all sentient beings be with right understanding and able to be enlightened'
at the end of meditation
it comes into the mind
'any experience is a furit of various causes
anything or anyone is a take and give relationship
therefore
it is wise to bless anyone comes into mind with metta, karuna, muditha, or upekka
whether it will be metta or karuna or muditha or upekka depends on the type of relationship we have with the person comes into mind'
hope we could see the relevence of the above to the discussion of this thread