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To the end ...
Deshy
Veteran
I am looking for a meditation book like "Mindfulness, bliss and beyond" where meditation is described from the smallest step to the highest goal. I have gone through a few stuff like "Mindfulness in plain English" and really like the read but they are not really complete. They do not describe the meditation from A to Z if you know what I mean.
So, what do you recommend?
So, what do you recommend?
0
Comments
Although not a book, this meditation CD by Ajahn Sumedho, abbot of the Thai Forest Tradition Amaravati Monastery might be helpful.
http://www.buddhistpublishing.com/BN/application/Application.php?fwServerClass=ProductDetail&ProductCode=CD-12
There's also an Amaravati introduction to Insight Meditation here:
http://dharma.ncf.ca/introduction/instructions/Thai-instructions.html
Kind regards,
Dazzle
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I think you are probably looking in the wrong way, though. Meditation is really very simple. It is fundamentally concerned with the dissolution of the self-concept and self-cherishing, so it gets simpler rather than more esoteric as that dissolution proceeds. There is not actually that much to write about.
Well I am actually a bit confused about meditation practice these days. I have a feeling that maybe (I am certainly not sure) Ajhan Brahm's book is talking of an absorption kind of meditation where you suppress the five hindrances temporarily in order for wisdom to arise.
Is there any other way to go about this? In Ajhan Brahm's book he has clearly given step by step procedure into the entire experience so we know what to watch out for, which way to direct our practice etc. I don't know any other book that goes into such levels of explanation.
You say "meditation is fundamentally concerned with the dissolution of the self-concept". Fine. I agree with that. But how? You just sit there and put your mindfulness into the experience of the breath and then? Wisdom just happens to you eventually? I doubt so
A miracle huh? Hard to believe simplicity can be so profound.
More seriously temporary suppression is just suppression, not that there's anything wrong with that I suppose.
I think the best direction is just to keep sitting, keep it up, read books by Ajahn Sumedho and other great teachers if you want.
Have fun,
Abu
Temporary suppression is just suppression but isn't it important to temporary suppress your hindrances in order for wisdom to arise? Or are you saying that if you keep sitting and being aware of the whole experience of the breath and being mindful, wisdom will just happen?
I know practice is the best way to know but a little know how of the matter is always a push in the right direction
Dear Deshy
I hesitate to give an answer because I am afraid I may mislead you.
So just briefly -- wisdom is not something that arises, it is something that is always there with you. The Buddha spoke of ignorance in dependent origination. That ignorance is not a jibed stupidity, it is the ignorance of not knowing, of being deceived of sorts, like wearing a pair of glasses with rose tinted paper but not seeing that, believing the world is pink and such. The reality is you have always had those pair of eyes, just that currently they are a bit clouded..hence..suffering.
The 'end' state as such (as a kind of literal metaphor) is the liberation of dukkha, as I understand it. There is such a thing as samadhi addiction, clinging to that state which is blissful or where there is no movement, as felt.
During meditation, samadhi can arise quite naturally over time, and therein it is an enjoyable feeling, sure. But the problem can arise when people fixate on it, believing this is the end state or objective of Buddhism.
The path of practice on the other hand, at least in my school, is practice practice practice. Nothing wrong with samadhi, nothing wrong with some pain. Time on the cushion through and without all experiences is the discipline, is the practice. With a bit of guidance and luck, time on the cushion is also time off the cushion ie the boundaries start to fade. But this is not the oft talked about things on forums, things like 'It's all the same' and believing that things are understood for example. There are a lot subtleties.
There is great power in perseverence in simple practice, but of course I speak from experience with zazen only and am not familiar with your practice. But baseline samadhi is OK I think -- observe and notice, observe and notice, rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat.
It's a hard process sometimes but someone's got to do it, might as well be you.
Blessings,
Abu
yes I understand this. What I meant by Wisdom happening is, in your own words, the time you remove your tinted glasses and see things as they really are. I didn't mean it as something that lands on you
It surely is not the end state. I think this is clear to most of us by now
Once again we are back to the common answer: "just keep practicing".
I think it is clear to most of us that practice is the way to go and there are more than enough directions on how to do this practice.
My question is, is there a book somewhere other than Ajhan Brahm's book which gives a step by step guided instructions on the entire path from A to Z? When I say guided instructions I don't mean just meditation guidelines. That you can find everywhere. I would like to see the meditative experience explained clearly in each step and how each state links with what is there in the suttas like Ajhan Brahm did in his book. A comprehensive set of instructions with real experiences.
A: Some think that it is important to suppress the five hindrances through samadhi before a meditator realizes wisdom and gains insight. I already have seen this method explained very well in the above mentioned book
B: Some think that getting the level of samadhi where the five hindrances are temporarily knocked out is just absorption kind of jhanas and it really doesn't give you insight or wisdom. When you wake up from the meditation your hindrances will return.
My question is for group B. How do you gain insight and wisdom and see things as they really are without these absorption jhanas? Is this method explained somewhere step by step?
I hope it is clear what I'm asking
Thanks Dazz. I like Ajahn Sumedho's stuff but he is once again coming from the same school of Ajhan Brahmn so I guess I won't find anything there which is not there in the book
Hi Deshy,
Having seen some of Ajahn Brahm's videos I don't think they necessarily have quite the same approach. I have found from my own offline experience that teachers within a tradition can sometimes be quite different to each other in the way that they teach.
Kind wishes,
D.
.
When attention is placed on the breath, various karma arises which degrades the attention, and it falls away. Then attention is returned to the breath. As a result of this return, the karma which degraded the attention has been renounced to a certain extent. Doing this over and over creates a habit of renunciation of karma.
There are various kinds of common karma: death, emotional reactivity, spiritual materialism, self-cherishing, self-concepts... There are meditations which specifically encourage familiarity and renunciation of each kind of karma, and the range of such techniques is as broad and varied as samsara itself, but all of them come back to this basic practice of returning attention to the breath as attention is degraded. Once the relationship to all that karma's shifted, what Ajahn Brahm describes in his book is relatively easy. What he describes can of course be practiced directly, and it works well for some people, and it can be used to power the habit of renunciation, because the experiences he describes sure are nicer than suffering. For other people, a map of these common kinds of karma and specific ways to work with them can be very helpful.
It describes how one can train your mind with breath meditation and goes into the 9 gradual stages of training the mind. I've read it about three times and lost my copy and even think I am going to re-purchase it.
May you reach your goal!
Thich Nhat Hanh
http://www.parallax.org/cgi-bin/shopper.cgi?preadd=action&key=BOOKTAH
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/anapanasati.pdf
Thanks Fivebells. I think I understand what you are saying. What you are basically saying this: Correct me if I'm wrong
"It is important to practice abandoning these various karmas (aka disturbances arising due to hindrances) repeatedly while we meditate as well as during day to day life. We need to keep practicing identifying and abandoning the ego concept every time it arises in day to day life as well. When we keep at this practice the mind will be gradually trained to abandon the five hindrances and the ego clinging during meditation. It will help the mind to develop samadhi (attentive stillness away from five hindrances) gradually. When the mind is at stillness, when the five hindrances are abandoned temporarily we can allow the mind into vipassana aka insight."
Am I right? So once again does it mean that the kind of jhanas that Ajhan Brahm talks about in his book are important for insight?
Thanks. I have listened to his Dhamma talks on meditation and they are really good. I like his method of relaxing and letting go everytime a disturbance occures before returning to the meditation. Highly effective practice
But I am still to find him say anything other than that. Where does the meditation lead eventually? It is probably not described in Anapanasathi sutta in detail by the Buddha but I feel that it is important to know more than this in order to know that we are in the right path and direction. If there is a book or a text by him which gives more details I would be more than happy to buy
And thanks everyone for all the support
If you go looking for wisdom, all you are going to find is more confusion. There is no step by step in wisdom. What you need is the patience to sit with your confusion. Recognizing confusion for what it is, is wisdom. It's not going to be found anywhere else, certainly not by trying to end it.
I think I already answered this.
When I was a teenager, I was interested in pink things. But then the mind realised unsatisfactoriness. This wisdom was not always there. The Buddha said: <O:p</O:p
Wisdom penetrates impermanence, unsatisfactoriness & not-self. This wisdom was not always there. The Buddha said:
http://what-buddha-taught.net/Books3/Buddhadasa_Anapanasati-Fourth_Tetra.pdf
The last chapter is the last chapter of the Buddhadasa Bhikku's book? Does it explain what I need to know btw?
Ajahn Brahm best explains how to walk and BB best explains the sights along the whole journey.
Kind regards
DD
If you look at a persons mind and what afflicts it, you will perceive that most of it has to do with looking at an object, evaluating it as good or bad, and making up a story or grasping to the feeling that arises from that evaluation. On the serenity side, all there is to it is just sit and focus on an object without letting your mind wander in these evaluations, feelings and stories.
On the analytical meditation side, the structure is more remedial (in a simpler manner). If you are lazy, you meditate on death; if you are impatient, you meditate on patience, and so on. If you don't like to eat fish but you know it is good for you, you meditate on the advantages of eating fish, and on the disadvantages of not eating it, and so on. Sometimes it will have a quick effect, when you are not too attached to your pattern of behavior; sometimes it will take longer, but if you stick to it, it will help.
The problem with grasping too much to these meditation manuals is that we loose the ease with which we can go through these processes. It is like you need BB or someone else's approval for your mind to be serene, and soon you start seeing it as something out there, far away from your reality.
You start worrying about things that shouldn't be so important, for instance, BB in one of his works places a lot of importance on being able to see the tip of your nose, so when you meditate you are like "where is my nose, where is my nose?".
The other problem is that you forget what happens outside the meditation cushion. Nothing strengthens more your meditations practice than what you do between sessions, and when you turn it into something too arcane, it detaches from day-to-day experiences a bit. That way I think the best meditation manuals are the suttas. Complement them with your own common sense.
These are my two cents.
Thanks DD. I'm going to get this book. Having read the walking I need to know about sights now
I like your reply and found it helpful although it doesn't necessarily answer my quetsion. I agree with what you say. Thanks
the only instruction in the anapanasati sutta is as follows:
You mean wise reflection to overcome mental hindrances.
These meditation manuals are for those sufficiently motivated to learn & master what is written in them.
It is important to discern what is suitable for oneself & what is not.
There is no need to criticise books about calculus when we ourselves are interested in arithmetic.
Have you considered finding a job as a valuer?
I guess so. It surprises me that there are only a few suttas where the meditation is addressed and most of them are very high level
Clearly no organized effort was involved when arahantship was attained by the first five disciples of the Buddha on hearing the Discourse on Non - selfhood, or by the one thousand hermits on hearing the Fire Sermon. In these cases, keen, penetrating insight came about quite naturally. These examples clearly show that natural concentration is liable to develop of its own accord while one is attempting to understand clearly some question, and that the resulting insight, as long as it is firmly established must be quite intense and stable. It happens naturally, automatically in just the same way as the mind becomes concentrated the moment we set about doing arithmetic. Likewise in firing a gun, when we take aim, the mind automatically becomes concentrated and steady. This is how naturally occurring concentration comes about. We normally overlook it completely because it does not appear the least bit magical, miraculous, or awe inspiring. But through the power of just this naturally occurring concentration, most of us could actually attain liberation. We could attain the Fruit of the Path, Nirvana, arahantship, just by means of natural concentration
http://www.buddhanet.net/budasa10.htm
This phenomenon in Buddhist literature has always intrigued me. What I've learned about the path to becoming an arahant, ie, the 4 Paths, the maps that I've seen, etc, paint it to be, well, for lack of a better way to put it, quite a process.
I recognize that I'm probably thinking too linearly, but it has always struck me as odd that large groups of people were instantly awakened to arahantship just by hearing and understanding the correct words in the presence of the Buddha.
Of course, we're talking 2500 years ago...definitions change, tales are exaggerated..or maybe I'm just missing a big point, as usual. :rolleyes:
Let's say I call the Buddha Dharma the Big Dharma and the way we view reality as Small Dharma.
For me, the Big Dharma only works when we compare it against the Small Dharma and we use that comparison as an instrument to reach Big Dharma. "Oh, in the Big Dharma there isn't a dark spot here, so let's clean it up".
The first problem is, people want to think their view is the same as the Buddha's View. they say "Buddha thinks like this". If Buddha disagrees, he is just being dumb. "Silly Buddha, he didn't mean that, he actually meant this other thing".
The second problem that even when we have a glimpse of Big Dharma we don't make the comparison. We don't think "Hey, an enlightened being wouldn't call that other guy an idiot, like I just did".
We just get the concepts, the words, and we don't reflect on them. "Ok, this sutta says killing is bad" and all the reflection ends there. We don't analyze ourselves in the light of Big Dharma. At most, we analyze others in the light of what we think is the Dharma.
By analyzing ourselves I don't mean "The Buddha says I shouldn't lie, but I just did 10 times" and that's it. If we want to change we have to ask ourselves why am I compelled to lie, why am I not making the right effort. More specifically, why did I lie to my father yesterday and went out with my boyfriend, and so on.
When we understand the reasons why we mess up, we end up understanding how ignorant we are. If you believe that the noble eightfold path, based on wisdom, leads to liberation, then you should agree that the opposite, for example wrong speech, is based on ignorance, and leads to suffering. So when you realize how unwise you really are, you start making a change, because you won't continue to do something you find dumb, and if you do, it's because you haven't reached the root of the problem yet.
Listening to the Dharma and not putting it to practice is like not listening to it at all. That is why you see people with so much study that continue to insist on the same faulty behaviors. I agree it sounds out of this world when you read a sutta where the person gets enlightened in a snap, but if were willing to practice what we already know of the Dharma we would probably surprise ourselves as well.
I would like to think that I'm in the early stages of trying to manifest what you're talking about. I'm trying to create some space, the mindfulness needed to be able to understand where that anger arose from when that dude cut me off in his pickup truck. I had a semi-breakthrough moment a couple of weeks ago..I was meditating, and a thought kept popping up in my head about an embarrassment that I suffered days before. For some reason, I was very calm and focused, and somehow this gave clarity. I opened my eyes, and it was like dominoes falling..the cause for the embarrassment revealed itself to me, (a behavior pattern from childhood), the cause for that sprang forth (a fear of being ridiculed), the cause for that (a fear of being alone), and then finally, I was reminded that we are all alone..and that that's okay.
It was very peaceful to have this understanding at a deep level.
Sorry if I moved this one offtopic..
The ego thinks it is too complicated.
In the post I was responding to, you seemed to be expressing doubt that placing the mind on the breath could lead to wisdom. I was explaining how that happens.
Not per se, but they will occur along the way, and can help power the process.
All of the suttas are about meditation. They are about developing right view so the mind can let go.
Kind regards
When the goal is not to end suffering in our life, religion becomes very confusing. Instead of liberating our mind, it makes our mind morally & egoistically paranoid. Our mind develops all of the inferiority & superiority complexes, all of the moral conflicts, which caused most of the modern generation of humanity to reject religion.
We must be very careful about practising imitatio Christi because religion can be like a snake.
The problem is we compare ourself to what we read.
When we see Michael Jordon play basketball, we do not think: "How can Michael do that when I cannot do that?"
But it seems when Buddhism is studied, some folks think: "How could they do that when I cannot do that?".
Comparing is a problem.
Another problem, IMHO, is: we can make the mistake of aiming to become arahants by diving straight into the practice of bhavana (mental cultivation or meditation) without an equal effort with regard to dhana (generosity) and sila (morality/ethics). The practice of all these three disciplines simultaneously is quite a daunting task for one engaged daily in the pressures of the workplace, family issues and problems, social norms, future planning for childrens' education, retirement planning, etc.... But as daunting as the task may be, we should nonetheless press on, step by step, if need be. May everyone make speedy progress on the Path ...
Sukhitha, if you consider the practice as a daunting task then it seems that you are probably swimming upstream. Practice is not some essential list of tasks that we do each day; it is the way we do our daily tasks. Real practice should be to eliminate the ego clinging at the sense bases. Generosity and precepts are not something we maintain with an effort but something that comes naturally through the elimination of ego clinging. In fact, generosity is not an essential part of the practice imo. It is preached by the Buddha for those who are so deluded by the self concept so that it is too early for them to comprehend the core Buddhist teaching: Dependent origination.
Please take a look at this:
http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books6/Bhikkhu_Buddhadasa_Paticcasamuppada.htm
A friend in this site (I think it's Fivebells... or Mundus) once gave me this link and my whole understanding of Buddhism took a 180 degree turn after that. Really recommend this. Practice is what you do with the sensory inputs you get through the six sense bases in every second. You get deeper into this during meditation.
Thanks for the support. Ouch... "daunting" is too strong a word in the general sense. I really meant it in the context of the extra effort required by lay practitioners as compared to the monastics... an extension of this by D Dhatu:
But I was never ever good at communicating ideas and it still shows.
Generosity
Again... perhaps my view of "Generosity" is not quite the same as yours. I always understood generosity in the Buddhist sense to mean the practice of the "Perfection of Giving" which arouses four states of mind called the four Divine Abidings, or four immeasurables, which comprise metta (loving kindness), karuna (compassion), mudita (sympathetic joy) and upekkha (equanimity). All of these four states inter-relate and support each other:
- Metta is benevolence toward all sentient beings, without discrimination or selfish attachment. By practicing metta, a Buddhist overcomes anger, ill will, and hatred.
- Karuna is active sympathy extended to all sentient beings.
- Mudita is taking sympathetic or altruistic joy in the happiness of others. The cultivation of mudita is an antidote to envy and jealousy.
- Upekkha is a mind in balance, free of discrimination and rooted in insight. This balance is not indifference, but active mindfulness that is free of passions of attraction and aversion.
Is this a wrong view of "generosity?"... and ... what constitutes "generosity" in your view? I ask this purely for clarification.With kind regards,
Sukhita
What is the extra effort may I ask?
The right practice of Metta , karuna, mudhitha and upekkha in this way seem like good practices of eliminating the ego clinging and as you say can be preparatory stages. But I have seen more than enough people who practice it so that it leads to the very thing they run away from...
For example, is it right practice to enjoy peace of mind and self satisfaction in extending help to the poor? Is it just me or do we sometimes experience a level of mental superiority in the slightest level when we help someone in need? If we are not mindful enough, even good deeds can ultimately blossom into ego clinging imo.
Well the way you put it, yes, generosity in this way seems good practice.
However, if we can practice right mindfulness at the six sense bases and eliminate feelings from developing into clinging that is the best practice as per the DO imo. For that you do not necessarily have to do "good deeds" and spread loving kindness. It just comes naturally with the right practice of mindfulness and letting go of the self.
Reading a book about meditation is a bit like reading a travel guide, and I don’t see anything wrong with that as long as you are meditating too, which you are.
Perhaps impatience for results, if that is what you are feeling right now, could prove unproductive though, because impatience is mental noise. I think it is probably better to just remain quietly receptive to what comes, when it comes, because insights come in their own good time.
Further, I think that sometimes we feel, me too, that because we sit in meditation, and see that as being a discipline of sorts, that we are some how in charge of make insights happen, (we earned them), or even that we can force them to happen. Forcing things at the same time as trying to be receptive to things would, certainly, only pull us in opposite directions causing unnecessary tension.
Respectfully,
S9
Yes, the practice is to let go. I meditate to let go not to attain anything.
Anyway, spiritual materialism is a common pit we fall into if we are not careful with the practice. Which is why I said, even generosity is sometimes practiced in a way which encourages spiritual materialism rather than to encourage letting go of the ego
Q: "The Tathagata directly awakens to that, breaks through to that. Directly awakening & breaking through to that, he declares it, teaches it, describes it, sets it forth. He reveals it, explains it, & makes it plain:"
S9: This quote certainly makes it sound like what Buddha 'Woke Up' to something that was right there all along, right in front of him but previously overlooked, because he was sleeping (hypnotized by mind’s going on-s), that he simply didn’t notice it.
Now if you describe wisdom as a product of the mind, than there is a clarifying that takes place in time. But if you see wisdom as being synonymous with Ultimate Truth, well than, Ultimate Truth isn’t a mind object, and does come or go like thoughts do, and therefore it certainly doesn’t arrive either.
Respectfully,
S9