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Virgin Buddhists
Would anyone like to try this with me? It can be completely separate to your school and practice etc, more of a large scale Buddhist thought experiment:)
The idea is we discuss Buddhism as if there was no written doctrine or school, just Buddha Dharma and Sanga.
It could be interesting and rewarding to our personal practices:)
Mat
PS I am no longer arguing here.
PPS Sorry for arguing.
The idea is we discuss Buddhism as if there was no written doctrine or school, just Buddha Dharma and Sanga.
It could be interesting and rewarding to our personal practices:)
Mat
PS I am no longer arguing here.
PPS Sorry for arguing.
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Comments
Sounds good to me. I take refuge in the three jewels.
How does this offer me instruction on 'how to bake a cake'?
No hijacking intended!
hijack back!!
I've chanted in Pali, in the early years of my Buddhist meditation training. I recieved my first Buddhist teachings based on text that had been translated into english from the Pali language.
Sorry but I feel like I'm likely to piss you off no matter what I answer.
Guess so:)
I went to sleep all excited about the prospect!:)
So where would the best place to start be?
We could just dip in ad hoc or try to discuss systematically?
Warm regards
mat
Hi Nios
That's a good question and one I am not sure anyone could answer. Maybe we should just start with nothing and see?
So in the first stages just assume nothing, be raw and philosophical, and then as we develop on what we learn there the important human stuff, like practice and experience, seem bound to follow.
I think one sure-fire rule of our talks should be that we don't talk Rebirth! We don't need to discuss the middle path, nobody can be sure either way and as we have all seen it's a destructive chat in Buddhism:)
What do you think?:)
Mat
I'm not too worried about the rebirth thing (though I'm sure it will rear it's ugly head). I just thought that if there is a clear structure to conversation, then there'll be less arguments (?)
Nios.
Just trying to throw some ideas around
I think the question "Are all things impermanent?" might be a good place to start (Ending up with an answer like brother bobs on the rb thread?)
Imagine we were in the deer park the day after the Buddha left and we hear that one thing he proclaimed was that all things are imperminenat.
What does that mean? Is it true of all things? Can we imagine anything it isn't true of?
We seem to experience it in every moment, maybe that's just peculiar to our moments and not all things?
What do you think about these questions?:)
mat
Are all subjects debatable accept rebirth?
Nios.
How is imperminance defined?
Nios.
Edit: Sorry I seem to be nip-picking. I'll stop if it's bothersom
Lets try to come up with a good definition:)
Is impermanence the same as change?
Update:
I define the word "imperminance" as literally "not perminant". The way I understand it, in the buddhist sense is, all conditioned things are imperminant. I prefer the word "imperminant" rather than "change" because I think it hits us a bit harder. Things both change and are simply snuffed out of existance. "Imperminance" more of a wake-up call.
This imperminance can be experienced on a relative level due to the things we see that arises and passes away, born and dies etc. For this reason, there is nothing in this life that we can cling to that will bring us lasting happiness because of imperminance, including buddhism, dharma, our ideas, thoughts, feelings etc
I believe, people suffer when they think there is something that is perminant, be it a self, or an idea...etc
I don't think this means we need to cut ourselves off from these things that make us happy, but that we must not cling to it and we must understand that both this feeling of happiness and this "item" (whatever it is) will both pass. From my experience, when we understand this with clarity, we enjoy and appreciate things a lot more.
Hope that makes sense,
Nios.
Hi Ray
Do you then think you can extrapolate to phenomenon you don't or cannot observe?
Maybe some things never pass away?
It all comes back to the "is there a reality outside of my perceptions" thing, doesn't it? :rolleyes:
Hi Ray,
Be more open!:) We are not asking if its important but if its possible:)
Can you imagine a universe that lasts for ever?
Mat
No Rayfield, you are no more incredibly self-centered than the rest of us. You are clear-sighted and honest about it.
But I would argue that if we can't or won't observe something, that might make it even more important to understand it in the context of ending our own suffering. Because it's those things we are blind to that have the potential to control us the most.
Ok, lets try going lower....
Imagine a line that is infinite.
It has no width or properties its just a line infinite in both directions if it is infinite one.
This line doesn't seem to have change in either direction, does it?
If it does what is changing?
From every point the line goes on for ever, without end and maybe without change? Is that line permanent?
Imagine the line is all there is, it is unconditional.
In which case is the line permanent along it's length?
It seems to be to me. For example it seems any statement that is true about any point on the line will be true of all points on the line. Can you think of any statements about a point that this isn't the case with?
What is the line composed of? Is there an observer?
So, are you saying you believe there are things that are perminant?
Lets assume that there no observer and it is composed of anything we wish, at this level lets assume that's not relevant. So imagine its totally idealised/numerical:)
Nios, please read the chat with attention and please try to avoiding questions about what people believe, at least in this thread!:)
Can you see how there may be benefit in starting in a totally idealised place first?:)
Ok, but is there a difference between the line being permanent and the line being infinite along its length?
This is why I asked right from the get go what the paramiters of discussion were Mat. If you had told me right from the start to not ask questions about other peoples belief I would never have in the first place. I'm not psychic. :winkc:
I don't understand this.
Maybe I'll sit this one out then and just watch.
There are subtle differences in what the word dhamma means in Pali vs dharma in Sanskrit.
Infinite and permanent are two different issues. Infinite generally implies more of a spacial thing, and permanent implies more of a temporal thing.
I'm assuming Mat is trying to get there from scratch somehow, but it might take a bit.