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Pure Land and Christianity
Can somebody point out the difference between the two?
I see only similiarities, critical components for both:
1) An abode of peace, love and rest after passing from this life
2) Faith and belief in that heavenly realm
3) A "saviour" kind of belief system
4) A surrendering to a higher or "other" power
Can someone help me, I am confused.
I see only similiarities, critical components for both:
1) An abode of peace, love and rest after passing from this life
2) Faith and belief in that heavenly realm
3) A "saviour" kind of belief system
4) A surrendering to a higher or "other" power
Can someone help me, I am confused.
0
Comments
From my understanding of Pure Land buddhism;
1) The Pure Land is different than the christian idea of heaven. The Pure Land is an abode created by Amida Buddha to allow people a place to learn dharma with little, or no obstructions. It is imperminant and so will not last forever. Your time spent there will not be forever. And simply being in the Pure Land will not guarentee enlightenment. You still have to do the leg work!
Some schools of Buddhism believe that the Pure Land is possible right here right now and is a mental state of being, rather than an actual place.
2) Many schools of Pure Land do state that faith is important. Most religions do.
3) Amida Buddha is not a saviour in the christian sense. He is not a God, he cannot rid you of your karma, and he cannot magically make you enlightened.
4) Not so much "surrender", because Amida cannot control you or your destiny.
That being said, this is only my understanding. I know many Pure Land buddhists who see Pure Land buddhism much like Christianity and they even talk about faith, saviour, and surrendering to Amida. This is not how I see it or practice it.
Nios.
Such teaching by itselfs was not much practiced in ancient India ( but there are also relic of Amita buddhas found in India, and mentioned in other scriptures and commentaries )
The pure land school found in east asia was started by the founding monks that emphasis on this particular group of sutras to suit the condition of the people at their time ( continue unrest/wars situation in the land and the low educational level of the masses etc )
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I've searched those and I don't come up with anything (or at least nothing credible). Do you have any links to books, studies etc etc? I'd be very interested.
Thank you
http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/study/islam/general/buddhist_muslim_doctrinal_relations.html
Just as a polite and courteous gesture, references should always be supplied, as a matter of course, by the person proposing the information.
ansanna, with such a wealth of information available, perhaps you could, in new circumstances, supply reference points for future and subsequent posters to link to. It's not considered good form to supply information, then suggest to others that they do their own research.
If information is proposed, it should be backed up, in situ, by that poster.
many thanks.
such information are not widely placed in internet for common people, just to be polite
The only reference I can find to Zervan Akarana-Amita-Ayus is here; http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:xb2BPq8zzXgJ:www.ignca.nic.in/nl002107.htm+Zervan+Akarana-Amita-Ayus&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk
In the article the Z-A-A-A (abrieviated) is not described as a deity, but as infinite time.
Do you have a name for the deity you are refering to (lion head human body) other than Zervan Akaran-Amita-Ayus?? Help us out here.
http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:rgtLtNxIcmoJ:www.experiencefestival.com/ayus+persian+deity+ayus&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk
http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:dhQBr3f_LgsJ:www.exoticindiaart.com/product/TN19/+persian+deity+ayus&cd=9&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk
http://www.kavehfarrokh.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/an_introduction_to_the_simorghian_culture_and_mithraism_in_the_east_asia_v2.pdf
And this article studies the creation of Mithraism, pre-dating Buddhism.
http://www.shamogoloparvaneh.com/Myth_of_Simorghian_Mithraism_V0B.pdf
In that case, it's best to expand on where you get your information from. It helps mould the discussion.
Often, it's also worth considering prefixing the post with "Thus have I heard"....
That way, we know it might not be as hard and fast as one might suppose.
Nios seems to have managed quite well to find a more than adequate number of sources for what he is expressing....
It's all very well telling someone in short, to "look it up for yourself" but it's not always helpful.
And that's a reminder to all.
Thank you.
Ok, carry on.
I'm really interested in what you've suggested but I can't find any weight to back the claim. All forms of buddhism have been influanced by culture. This is both obvious and a given, but I am looking for real evidence that Pure Land buddhism was made up to convert the people of Persia, as you suggested. I have done the searches you told me to, but I can't find what you are suggesting. Where has your information come from?
Thank you
Aion - Zurvan Akarana : Zurvan (Zervan) means "Time" and refers to the finite time of history. Beyond that is Zurvan Akarana or "Boundless Time" which represents eternity. According to the Avesta, Zurvan Akarana (Zeroana Akerne) has always existed, his glory is exalted, his light is resplendent
In late antiquity, Aion became fused with Mandulis (Merwel), who was a sun god of Lower (northern) Nubia.-
http://www.hermeticmagick.com/content/deities/aion.html
Amita-abha = boundless light
Amita-ayus = boundless life ( time )
Thank you.
Edit: The Avesta seem to be the religious texts for Zorostrian. Would this not be like using the bible to prove history???
http://www.ignca.nic.in/nl002107.htm
This is the exact same text that I referenced and quoted earlier (see post 14). Do you have anything else? Where has your knowledge come from?
Thanks
hello My Dear Friend
the question that you put forward is indeed very interesting.
i would like to point you to the very interesting work of Martin Palmer
he describes how Christianity came to China an in this Inspired
the birth of Pure Land Buddhism...
it would take me to long to explain in detail pleas read
The Jesus Sutras: Rediscovering the Lost Scrolls of Taoist Christianity
its a great and very Interesting book
I'm afraid to say that the pureland sutras are much older than the Jesus Sutras, by around 500 years plus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Sutras
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pure_Land_Buddhism
Nios.
Thank you Nios
Have your read the book ' The Jesus Sutra "
its really good and informative .
how ever what you say seems true ,
on the first look this would still make it
100 year younger then Christianity.
And remember Christianity spread in India with the Arrival of
the Apostle Thomas, so that the doctrine of Christ
Influenced Buddhism and especially pure land Buddhism seems very
possible if not likely.
thank you for the Conversation Alaya
The influences of other religions upon each other is something I'm very interested in. However, I'm urked by the amount of false claims not only found on the internet but also in books.
I have read "The Jesus Sutras" and I though some of it was interesting, some of it seemed pure guess work, but without the book infront of me, I'm afraid I can't point out anything. Sorry
It is no surprise that the pre-dominating religions of the time had influenced Buddhism as it travelled. And Buddhism did indeed spread west before it went east, giving us fantastic Hellenistic Buddhist sculpture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhist_art the influence of which then spread east and can be seen in East Asian Buddhist Art. It's also possible that Greek and Buddhist philosophy influenced each other. However this was pre-christian era.
There is much evidence to show that Christianity was influenced by it's surrounding religions, possibly even by Buddhism. Take a look at Byzantine Christian art and see the similarities. Here's one showing Jesus, wearing a buddhist style robe and using a mudra
I'm afraid to say, there is much evidence to suggest that Buddhist influenced Christianity, and very little evidence to suggest that Christianity influenced Buddhism. And I have never been able to find any evidence to suggest that PureLand Buddhism was based on Christianity.
I think, the mistake that people often make is by thinking that Pure Land Buddhism started with the establishment of the Pure Land sects, around the 13th century, not realising that Pure Land practice and beliefs were part of most Mahayana schools for a lot longer, possibly not long after the creation of Mahayana, somewhere between the first century BCE or first century AD.
Sorry for waffling on, like I said, I love this subject
Nios.
Have you seriously considered that?
Yes, please read above.
Nios.
Thank you for the Answer Nios
I see we share the same passion
Thank you for the link you suportet
http://www.buddhachannel.tv/portail/spip.php?article9815
it actualy just shows that greek art influenced Buddist art.
so i would not be surpriced if earlyer Greek art influnces also
latter Byzanten art like you showed on the Icon of Christ.
So docent seem to surprice me at all and seems no profe at all
that Buddsim has influenced Christianti rather that Greek art Influenced
Christian art and that is fahr from surpricing to me...
By the way no need to be afraid;) even if there would be evidence for
the case that Buddism influenced Christianity... which i dought siriously
becouse what evidence is there ? or can there be ? since
the oldest Buddist text that exist's comes one hundret year after
Christ... http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/history/s_scripts.htm
so how could you have evidence ? i mean i just wonder
and i am open to see such evidence .... really....
just wondering...
maybe you know something i dont know...
pleas share it i am willing and able to learn...
Thank you
God bless you and may the Truth set us Free
yes my friend , we have considert this
and we actualy agree... we just wonder who had the originality
of this Geniouse way of Liberation....
I say it was Christ true the Cross , my Friend Nios says it was Buddha
how ever i am convineced that everything has it's price...
So also Salvation or Liberation
Christ payd the heavy Price for us... we are free true His Love for Us
but let's discuse this further...
becouse ultimatly it is the TRUTH that will set us all free...
Thank you for bringing up the question
God Is Love
Hi again Alaya
I'm sorry to say that Buddhism is much older than Christ and Christianity. Over 200 years before Christ was even a twinkle in god's eye, Buddhism was already being spread through the Greek Empire (currently afganistan and Pakistan) by King Ashoka. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashoka_the_Great This is historical fact and can't be disputed. This early form of Buddhism is different to Pure Land Buddhism, which is what this thread is about. Pure Land, as a distinct sect, came about much much later as I had previously stated, but the Pure Land sutras, which are what Pure Land sects are much older.
Pure Land buddhism appears similar to Christianity only in it's use of terminology. The Pure Land sutras were first translated into English using the terminology we are familiar with. For this reason, it has appeared that Pure Land Buddhism is similar to Christianity. It is, as I have shown, not similar to Christianity. This is even more obvious to those who practice Pure Land as the practice of Christianity and Pure Land are like chalk and cheese.
It is also interesting to know that the name "Pure Land" is actually a mistranslation and it should be called "Pure abode". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pure_land
It is also interesting to know, that in Mahayana Buddhism, as far as I'm aware, all the different Buddhas have their own "lands" or "abodes". The "Pure land" is just one of them, created by Amidabha Buddha. Manjushri, Avalokitesvara, etc all have their own "Pure Lands" which are different to Amidabha's Pure Land, but have similar functions.
I think, it is important for us to know where our religions and our religious customs come from. I hope you and jingnen will continue reading and learning.
Nios.
Indeed. I have been researching this for the best part of 6 years. I actually first learnt of this before I was even Buddhist and I was studying History of Art at art college. It opened my mind.
Yes, that is exactly what I was saying
You got it.
You misunderstand me. I said that it was possible that Christianity was influenced by Buddhism. Christianity, like Buddhism, is influenced by many different cultures and religions. It's possible that what looks like Buddhism in Christianity might actually come from Hinduism or Yoga or Jainism.
Trust me, I'm not afraid. Far from it
If you read the link I gave to King Ashoka, you will see that there is actual archeaological evidence that Buddhism spread to the Greek Empire over 200 years before Christ. We have Buddhist statues, Buddhist temples, Buddhist stupas, Buddhist universities, and even texts in the form of rock edicts which mention Buddha and his teachings. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashokan_Edicts_(Delhi)
http://www.amazon.com/Buddhist-Stupas-South-Asia-Archaeological/dp/019569886X
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanchi
http://viewonbuddhism.org/time-line.html
There is simply LOADS of evidence. The above is just the start. ]
With much metta (loving kindness)
Nios.
Hi thanks for bringing up again that they are different, but from what you have written earlier I still don't see the diff. Your points:-
1) Pure Land is not eternal like the Christian Heaven - If I am not wrong the Sutras have emphasied repeatedly that inhabitants of Pure Land have an "infinitely long life". Thus Amitabha is also called Amitayus, Buddha of Infinite Life. Morever one is bound to gain enlightement once there, and never to regress. As such to dwell on whether the Pure Land is eternal or not is like splitting hairs to me.
2) You wrote - Amida Buddha is not a saviour in the christian sense. He is not a God, he cannot rid you of your karma, and he cannot magically make you enlightened.
Have you heard of "Gaining birth despite karmic obstructions, due to the vows and power of Amitabha"? This point was clearly stated in the Sutras and clarified by many famous Pure Land Masters such as Shan'Tao and Honen. Also the fact that you may lessen your Karma considerably by chanting his name (due to the great merits and vows of Amitabha Buddha). In a sense Amitabha doesn't rid you of your karma directly, but if you see it in another way he does.
3) You wrote - Not so much "surrender", because Amida cannot control you or your destiny.
Isn't it the same with Christianity? You do have a choice to believe in God or not. He doesn't control the choices you make.
I'll go over your points as best I can.
1) Infinitely long and eternal are two different things. It may sound the same as eternal and it may sound like splitting hairs but it is utterly important to realise that the purelands are subject to imperminance. This is the most fundemental point of Buddhism.
The universe is infinitely old when compared to our lives, but it is not eternal. It is also subject to imperminance.
2)Pure land has evolved like all the other Buddhist sects. The original teachings of Pure Land is that you will be born their despite your karma. Chanting the Nembutsu is supposed to reduce your karma because of the merit of Amida's vows. This again is a mayahana trait that can be linked back to vajrayana practice in which it is possible to lesson ones karma by practicing chanting, mudras and rituals. Like I said, Amida is not the only one.
Please look at shingon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shingon_Buddhism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vajrayana
Like you said, Amida doesn't reduce your karma directly unless you are looking at it from a different angle. Look at anything from a different angle and it's possible to see things differently.
3)From what I remember of Christianity, is that, to get into heaven you must surrender to god. But if you don't surrender, he still controls your destiny (heaven or hell) Also, most christians believe that god influences you throughout your life. Some christians also believe that natural desasters are caused by god, like tsumamis.
But like I said before, even if you do reach the Amida Pureland, you still have to do the work to become enlightened. The Pureland is just a stopping point.
At the end of the day Jingnen, if you are so convinced that the Pure Land is no different than christianity, even after all that I've explained, then no amount of posting will convince you otherwise. Sorry to say it.
Nios.
One difference between Pure Land and Christianity is that Pure Land can be interpreted in a psychological way. The Amitabha Buddha and his Pure Land are projections of our own inner Buddha-nature. Because we don't recognize it in ourselves, we project it outwards and treat it as an external entity.
Probably the majority of Pure Land Buddhists view it in a literal way, rather than interpreting it this way. But at least some Pure Land Buddhists interpret this way or some way similar, and it's accepted because it's Buddhism. If you were to tell a Christian minister that God is a projection of our inner, unrecognized powers, you'd get a strongly negative reaction.
Another important difference is the fact that none of the various Buddha's are creator gods, and Buddhism has no creator god, or a god who is the ground of existence. Amitabha Buddha is believed to have been a man who became a Buddha.
I'm another person who isn't clear on the difference between infinitely long and eternal. Eternal means existing for an infinite time into the future. In other words, an infinitely long life.
Hi it's ok.
I am not totally convinced that PureLand is similiar to Christianity, neither am I saying that they are different (which is the reason I started this thread in the first place). I am looking for other views which might proved it either way, conclusively.
I am just thinking that could it be we are so caught up with religious and man made segregations we fail to see the similiarities?
Why can't they be the same, pointing to the same abode? Do you really think they are intrinsically different or is it is because you're labelled a Buddhist and he a Christian?
For your info I am not a Christian trying to argue for the Pure Land being a offshoot of Christianity, it's in fact the opposite. Why can't Christianity be a simplified version of the Pure Land path?
Anyway thanks for the replies my friend. See you in Amitabha's light.
Yes that I can understand, it would be horrible.:D
Thanks for your reply.
My personal opinions is that the differences are just as important and the similarities. Buddhism and Christianity hold some amazing similarities, but I believe the differences are also important because we are different people with our own opinions and thoughts, likes and dislikes. I honestly believe that variety is the spice of life.
I'll let other people give their opinions now
Nios.
Here are some differences:
1. Amida is not the creator of the universe or of us
2. Amida is not a judge handing out punishment for bad behavior and rewarding good behavior: "If even a good person can attain birth in the Pure Land, how much more so a bad person!"..from the "Tannisho"
3. The Pure Land is a place where one will attain enlightenment. One can then manifest in this world in various forms to help those in suffering.
4. We do not Pray to Amida to perform miracles to make our earthly life happier.
I think it is useful to understand that some Buddhists take this all quite literally, but many take it more symbolically. In my experience the majority of Jodo Shinshu followers (myself included) take it as more symbolic.
Amida Buddha = perfectly awakened infinite light and life
Sukhavati (pure Land) = utmost bliss.
So if we take the nembutsu Namo Amida Butsu, with Namo being I take refuge in, or even I am embraced by perfectly awakened infinite light and life, and thus am born into a state of utmost bliss.
As for "Other Power" I always like the metaphor of the eternal ocean, and we are waves that under certain causes and conditions, manifest on the surface of the ocean.
Waves don't really need to try to be one with the ocean, they already are one with it. And in fact the only thing required to become one with the ocean is for the wave to do nothing at all, but simply rely upon the ocean...and gravity I guess.
Amida is suchness in a form we can relate to but, Shinran said something to the effect of "the true Buddha is formless"
When you look deeper into Pure Land you begin to see that is actually very different from Christianity, and is very much Buddhist. It is just a different Dharma door than say Zen or Theravada for example.
<DIR>According to the Avatamsaka Sutra, the Tathagata spoke the supreme Dharma to forty-one great Bodhisattvas soon after his great awakening under the Bodhi tree. In the closing remarks, a virtuous youth called Sudana visits fifty-three great Bodhisattvas and sages seeking for the way to Buddhahood. One of his hosts is Samantabhadra Bodhisattva, who teaches Sundana the ten Great Vows, so that, not only Sundana, but all those present at the time may obtain rebirth in Pure Land. This narrative is important as it affirms the practice of Pure Land sect that it is not just expedient means, but an ultimate goal surpassing all practices in other Buddhist sects.
According to Mahasamgata Sutra, it reveals that in the Dharma-ending age, there will be countless practitioners of lower capacity or potential, so very few will succeed in attaining liberation. However, Pure Land sect provides the most simple, reliable and effective way in the attainment of liberation.
Also according to Maharatnakuta Sutra, Shakyamuni Buddha urged his father, the King Suddhodana and sixty thousand members of his Sakya clan to seek rebirth in Pure Land.
According to the Contemplation Sutra, Vaidehi, the wife of King Bimbisara, was about to be killed by her son Ajatasatru. Though Ajatasatru repented after listening to the advice of his ministers, Vaidehi was so disappointed that she paid homage to the Buddha, asking the Buddha why she had a wicked son. She also expressed that she would like to be reborn to a world without sorrow and trouble.
<CENTER></CENTER>Thereupon Vaidehi again spoke to the Buddha," World Honored One, although all other Buddha countries are pure and radiant with light. I should, nevertheless, wish myself to be born in the realm of Amitabha Buddha, in the world of Ultimate Happiness, Sukhavati."
According to the Larger Amitabha Sutra, in the era of Lokesvararaja Tathagata , there was a king, who left his royal family and became a Bhiksu named Dharmasaka. He asked the Tathagata to speak of the pure lands of all Buddhas, and their conducts in adornment and excellence. Thus, the Tathagata described 21 billion pure lands, and let Dharmasaka to see them all. Taking the perfections and all excellences and good qualities of all Buddhalands, Dharmasaka took five Kalpas to design and formulate the specifications in the creation of the pure world.
After he finished the plan, he came before the Tathagata and made 48 great vows, saying that he would not be a Buddha if each of his vows was not realized. Now, Dharmasaka has become Buddha for ten Kalpas, called Amitabha Buddha. The Pure Land is called Sukhavati, which is located in the west of the Buddha land of Buddha Sakyamuni.
Above all, not only the sages, and even the birds (rmks: animals speaking enlightenment to human, just ought to pay homage to animals) and the trees as the manifestations of Amitabha Buddha expound the Buddhist Dharma continuously in Sukhavati. In the presence of Amitabha Buddha. those beings in Pure Land can achieve and maintain right states of concentration easily, and attain complete enlightenment eventually.
The Amitabha Buddha Sutra translated by Kumarajiva
</DIR>Kumarajiva is considered one of the greatest translators of Buddhist scriptures from Sanskrit into Chinese. He was from Kucina (Kucha) of Central Asia (today's Kuche of the Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region of China) and the Indian-Kuchan parentage. His first attempt was in the Amitabha Buddha Sutra and a few other Buddhist scriptures. Then he translated the Maharatnakuta Sutra-Upadesha and the Shatika-Shastra. In the following year, he re-translated the complete Mahaprajnaparamita-Sutra, which includes, among many other scriptures, the Diamond Sutra. The whole translation task actually involved more than 500 monks as his assistants in the verification and editing work. Kumarajiva double-checked all texts in the Mahaprajnaparamita-Sutra. During the following year (404) he translated the majority of the Sarvastivadin-Vinaya and reworked on the Shatika-Shastra.
Kumarajiva was a genius in language and literature. For instance, he also wrote the commentary of the Vimalakirti-Nivdesa-Sutra, which has a tremendous impact in the Chinese literature. Among all the translators working in China, he was probably the best in the Chinese language. In April 413, he died at the age of 71 in the Grand Temple in Changan. His last words were that he remembered he had translated about 300 texts in Buddhism and believed that other than the Sarvastivadin-Vinaya which had not passed review and editing, he could guarantee that all his translations should be correct and could be used for spreading Buddhism. In order to prove such a statement, he claimed that when his body was incinerated after his death, the tongue would remain intact. It turned out that his claim was true. According to Tang-San-Zang, the complete works of Kumarajiva include 35 Sutras/Vinayas/Shastras, covering 294 texts.