Ignorance

Deshy

So ignorance (specifically not understanding impermanence, suffering and non-self) is the cause of tainted consciousness and so on to craving, clinging and suffering ... But a new born child has no sense of self but it still has a lot of craving and clinging.

Is that because their minds are not developed to the level of understating the true nature of things like the animals? It almost looks like we are born with ignorance :viking:

nibbuti

Indeed, birth has not-knowing the dependent impersonal arising of natural phenomena as its origin.

ravkes

Deshy wrote: »

So ignorance (specifically not understanding impermanence, suffering and non-self) is the cause of tainted consciousness and so on to craving, clinging and suffering ... But a new born child has no sense of self but it still has a lot of craving and clinging.

Is that because their minds are not developed to the level of understating the true nature of things like the animals? It almost looks like we are born with ignorance :viking:

The craving and clinging initially are just for survival purposes. Craving food, water.. and the people that give you food and water (family).. Then as they progress and they get "educated".. this natural state of simply "craving" for things you need gets inflated and reaches to craving stuff that's really non-essential. So your mind ends up craving things, not your body. Buddha said that all things are mind-wrought meaning that one has to abide by his body, and if he or she does that he'll see that it's just a peaceful experiential machine.. craving for the minimum for what it needs to survive. Craving in the sense of infant survival is natural.

fivebells

Deshy wrote: »

So ignorance (specifically not understanding impermanence, suffering and non-self) is the cause of tainted consciousness and so on to craving, clinging and suffering ... But a new born child has no sense of self but it still has a lot of craving and clinging.

Is that because their minds are not developed to the level of understating the true nature of things like the animals? It almost looks like we are born with ignorance :viking:

Perhaps a newborn child has no sense of self, but one quickly develops out of the very craving and clinging that you cite. (As well as the disappointment which develops from that.) DO is not a linear process. It as a map of dependencies between the various components from which karma arises. The list of components usually starts at ignorance, but you shouldn't take that to mean that the process of karma's development always starts there.

Deshy

But clinging starts with ignorance and I guess a newborn is in fact ignorant in the sense that it has not experienced the non-self. The fact that it has no sense of self doesn't mean it has realized non-self as it is.

fivebells

Clinging is dependent on ignorance, which is a little different

Deshy

Sorry what I meant was that clinging is dependent on ignorance. The wording makes it different yes but if I rephrase it it will still stand I guess:

Clinging is dependent on ignorance and I guess a newborn is in fact ignorant in the sense that it has not experienced the non-self. The fact that it has no sense of self doesn't mean it has realized non-self as it is.

NamelessRiver

Why do you think he has no sense of self? I think it was Donald Winnicott or Melanie Klein that stated that in the beggining the baby has such a strong sense of self that it isn't depend on the body, and he has this idea that he and the mother are the same. In fact I think he doesn't even have a concept of "the other". (before buddhism I had a 'psychoanalysis' phase. I don't remember very well though x-) )