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The Mind.

ravkesravkes Veteran
edited March 2010 in Buddhism Basics
How does one reconcile the fact that all thoughts are conditioned with needing thoughts/thinking processes to survive? So you let your mind control you sometimes, and watch your thoughts objectively at other times?

Comments

  • edited March 2010
    The way you've phrased the question makes it difficult to understand. I wouldn't equate "brain" with "mind"; the brain is the motherboard of the body, and its only necessary functions are for the upkeep of the body and for survival-instinct, which is all we really need to survive (our modern world of technology that we need to "think" so much about to live in is our own creation, not of nature nor of our own natural "design" as it were).

    Your thoughts, or your "mind", on the other hand, is something else. It is your mind that you are attempting to gain full mastery of, so you would not let your mind control you at any time in the final reckoning.

    Perhaps I misunderstood. If so, please clarify?
  • edited March 2010
    I have to disagree a bit, for I think a human mind is dependent on a human brain.

    What we call ourselves, is it not simply a collection of memories and tendencies? We know that brain trauma patients can lose certain memories depending upon the location of the injury and even their personality can change. Remember the famous case of Phinas Gage? His injury practically transformed him into another person.

    Of course, self-transformation is possible through conscious effort. However, I think that transformation is limited to the physical constraints of our brain.
  • ravkesravkes Veteran
    edited March 2010
    You sort of get the idea. What I mean is that, let's say I'm crossing the street and my mind says that's a bad idea because there are cars. So I listen to the thoughts that have correlated to survival in the past and disregard the rest? It really is difficult to phrase this question. I'm just confused about mindfulness I guess, if it involves watching all thoughts objectively.. what about the thoughts you have to act upon for survival and thus view subjectively? Do you just make exceptions for those?
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited March 2010
    Ever stopped to consider that you also have animal instinct?

    Animals do not gravitate towards that which is pleasurable.
    They distance themselves from that which is not pleasurable.
    (difference).

    We - as human beings - are also animals, and in spite of the great evolutionary process which has somehow or other seen fit to place us at the top of the food chain, and in spite of our purportedly advanced brains, which have developed logic and reason, argument and discernment, we are still subject to some of the instinctual behaviour, traits and inherent characteristics which other animals also have.
    Whilst we have - as is so often discussed here - free will and choice, and we exercise those every waking moment, we also have basic underlying instinctive reflexes which without us even necessarily being conscious of it, actually keep us alive.

    Good thing too, huh? ;)
  • Floating_AbuFloating_Abu Veteran
    edited March 2010
    ravkes wrote: »
    How does one reconcile the fact that all thoughts are conditioned with needing thoughts/thinking processes to survive? So you let your mind control you sometimes, and watch your thoughts objectively at other times?

    The idea is that you control thought, and not thought control you. But this is a subtle point and the best method that I know of is a consistent and determined meditation practice - awareness, constancy, patience, determination.

    Best wishes, Abu
  • ravkesravkes Veteran
    edited March 2010
    separator.gifSo because we're animals and animals just live to survive when aware we're basically back to being animals. I bet animals look at us and laugh on the inside :) lol
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited March 2010
    federica wrote: »
    Animals do not gravitate towards that which is pleasurable.
    They distance themselves from that which is not pleasurable.
    (difference).
    Federica, I gather you have a dog-training business. Presumably you are aware of the Skinnerian training principle of positive reinforcement (as popularized in, e.g., Don't Shoot the Dog!.) Do you not accept this principle?
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited March 2010
    ravkes wrote: »
    How does one reconcile the fact that all thoughts are conditioned with needing thoughts/thinking processes to survive? So you let your mind control you sometimes, and watch your thoughts objectively at other times?
    Buddhist practice is not about survival. It is about learning to die gracefully. (Die to mental phenomena, and eventually, die physically.)
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited March 2010
    fivebells wrote: »
    Federica, I gather you have a dog-training business. Presumably you are aware of the Skinnerian training principle of positive reinforcement (as popularized in "Don't Shoot the Dog!" Do you not accept this principle?

    Positive reinforcement is showing the dog that its behaviour is unacceptable, and likely to produce a negative response in other pack members.

    The dog, however, doesn't deliberately act this way to produce a negative effect. It's just doing its best to take control of a situation, in a world it does not understand. The less we respond in the way the dog is trying to make us respond, the more it will enact its behaviour, because that's all he knows ho to do... It becomes a vicious circle... As a member of the canine world, he can't be expected to improvise or think outside the box. all he knows that the harder he tries, the less we are happy... so he tries harder, because he thinks he's failing to lead properly.
    In actual fact, it is we who need to look at things from his point of view....

    Positive reinforcement steers the dog away from this negative effect/result, towards a reward for a change in behaviour.


    For example, a dog that will keep running away and not come back, is doing so for a reason.
    By reinforcing positive behaviour, we change that reason, and make it realise that the reason it had before, is less preferable to the reason we are giving it now.
    we turn him into a happy follower, rather than permitting him to be a poor leader.
    We make his options, less favourable than ours.
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited March 2010
    I think you're confusing the concept with positive punishment. Anyway, you clearly work from a very different training philosophy than I learned.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited March 2010
    I don't think mindfulness means objective versus subjective. Imagine you are having a dream and a tiger is chasing you. Then you wake up. That is the direction of mindfulness. The ideas you have that you are worthless or worthy or whatever. You wake up from those ideas to the present. To space. To a heart.

    Objective and subjective are both just constructs. Some added thought overlayed on top of just experience as it is. So mindfulness is waking up from both objective and subjective notion into your experience as it is.

    To cross the street you are mindful. It doesn't mean that your mind blanks out and you are not allowed to preserve your life. In fact when we are mindful we are open clear and sensitive to our environment. Being more mindful means aligning with the openness clarity and sensitivity of our nature. It is recognizing that we ARE space. Rather than that we need space (freedom).
  • ravkesravkes Veteran
    edited March 2010
    When being mindful, you are more sensitive to your environment.. but what's the motivation to go to school and do work and live.. Just because our bodies want to survive? So we just abide by that? Is that all it is
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited March 2010
    Whats the motivation to do anything? If we have the idea that life is meaningless and we needn't do anything... That would just be thinking. Mindfulness is waking and recognizing that that is just thinking.

    So as we go to school we are mindful. Strictly speaking we don't have to go to school. We don't want to starve. And we may enjoy a career.
  • ravkesravkes Veteran
    edited March 2010
    So our bodies guide us. What else?
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited March 2010
    Our wish to be happy. Our discernment. Our confidence in our clarity openness and sensitivity.
  • ravkesravkes Veteran
    edited March 2010
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited March 2010
    fivebells wrote: »
    I think you're confusing the concept with positive punishment. Anyway, you clearly work from a very different training philosophy than I learned.

    No, not positive punishment at all.....
    Distracting the dog from doing something we perceive as unacceptable behaviour, by giving him a better option. There's no punishment....Maybe I need to research this more, but it's all about making the dog happier to follow a different course of action....

    Thanks....
    :)
  • edited March 2010
    An aside: Many reactive behaviors are unmediated by the brain, they occur in neural activity between peripheral nerves and the nerves in the spinal column never traveling up to the brain and back to the peripheral nerves.

    I imagine mind as consciousness. Consciousness arises in contact with objects. This is true for all sentient beings, including woofies. As such consciousness is conditioned by experience (memories of stuff happening). Trauma, etc. may block memories from arising to the level of momentary awareness but the memory still resides in sub-subconscious (unaware consciousness).

    Habitual behavior (volitional action - karma) conditions consciousness in a big way. So, it's how we respond to stuff happening, in the NOW, that creates how we're likely to respond in the future. In the case of Mindfulness, it's training (volitional conditioning) to remain in tranquil sensitivity and observe the state of our own MIND or to remain in tranquil sensitivity and imagine stuff that counters our negative conditioning.
  • ravkesravkes Veteran
    edited March 2010
    So mindfulness is essentially reconditioning yourself back into sanity.. and what the body does is what the body will always do. So you basically end up becoming a tranquil sane dude with no qualms about existence because you realize that the words you're arguing with were they themselves created from biased conditioning based on nothing.. and instead are constantly focused on what is right now.. But of course because you're still tied to your body you have to interpret based on survival, but only this time you maintain an unbiased perspective.
  • edited March 2010
    Or not survival, based on conditioning leading to pure altruistic intention - feeding self to the starving Tigress - unbiased by any thought of or urge for survival.


    Body/mind not separate.
  • ravkesravkes Veteran
    edited March 2010
    i don't get it, how can you be altruistic if you don't feed yourself first
  • edited March 2010
    I imagine hearing this in the past; Perfect Altruism be may regarded as 'no giver, nothing given and no receiver.' - where there is wisdom. I also imagine that if I train long enough with any conditioning I may be like that, so, in regard to altruism, I may be proximate to perfection.

    Enlightenment is an accident, training makes us accident prone.

    Oops! missed 'feed'. In the case of feeding the tigress there was no idea of feeding self. Momentary circumstances called for some action. That action was engaged out of pure altruistic intention for the benefit of all, without concern for anything else.
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