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The heart sutta
Deshy
Veteran
What is the heart sutta? Does it talk about nothingness? 
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It also says
no eye no ear no form no attainment no defilement
But that is in light of the first statement I said...
That is the prajnaparamita...
So the question I think you have is... is there no prajnaparamita? I think thats an important point and it leads to the third turning of the wheel of dharma. The prajaparamita itself is the second turning. When there is no grasping we don't just have nothingness. Rather all the positive (ie satisfactory) and ungraspable buddha qualities start emerging. Limitless in nature. Our current experience of love is a distorted version of these buddha quality(s) which is distorted by (perhaps as) grasping and aversion and ignorance.
From the analytical wisdom perspective, a chariot is seen not to be a unitary and homogenous whole but, rather, to be composed of individual parts.
From the relational wisdom perspective, even the individual parts of the chariot are seen not to exist ultimately. In the light of the perfection of wisdom, they are now seen to be dependent, conditioned, relative.
The passage from wisdom to the perfection of wisdom is thus the passage from a vision of reality characterized by perception and acceptance of individual components of reality to a vision characterized by perception of the emptiness, or voidness (shunyata).
It is like with analytical wisdom we believe an atom is indivisible, and with perfection of wisdom we come to the conclusion that it can be divided to smaller and smaller parts without end.
Emptiness is not meant to be metaphysics, though. It is a therapeutic device. It is a corrective for the exclusively analytical view, which leaves us with a residual belief in the real existence of the elements of experience (five aggregates, four noble truths, and other "chariot parts").
When Avalokiteshvara says that form is not different from emptiness and emptiness is not different from form he means that, because they are relative to each other, they are empty (of inherent existence, they are conditioned phenomena as well).
I personally think the whole emptiness talk only makes sense when we have already got rid of a lot of junk by using the "chariot parts", because otherwise, we will just be trying to load a cow with a yak's load.
the ending of suffering, namely, the nibbana element, is the unconditioned element
it is not something dependent, conditioned, relative, interrelated, etc
so when the heart sutra teaches there is no eye, no form, no suffering, no end of suffering...it is teaching nothingness
it gets caught out - stark naked - by stating there is no end of suffering
the end of suffering is not something something dependent, conditioned, relative, interrelated, etc
thus the theory the heart sutra teaches interrelatedness rather than nothingness is easily rebutted
:smilec:
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Palzang
The Heart sutra teaches that there is no such thing as "nothingness" or an exotic "Unconditioned element". It points to non-dual awakeness. Emptiness means empty of self existence. There is no thing that is self existent. We have no unconditioned thing to hang our hats on. No end of suffering refers to the nature of this awakening in which suffering is originally not suffering. Makes no sense to you? Sure it doesn't. Its beyond your ken, it's apparently beyond the ken of plenty of Mahayana practitoners to.
The Heart Sutra is not a theory of the world. It is a skillful means in PRACTICE.
The Theravadin people both ordained and lay I know would never partake in slagging another stream of Dharma. You have hinted in the past that you are ordained sangha, if this is true it is especially unfortunate.
I hope that's not refering to me, Palzang. I've been a Tibetan Buddhist practitioner for many years, but there are some things that I find most puzzling in Mahayana these days - and I just gave blind faith and devotion to them before. How could saying that be wrong speech?
Well not for me Richard. I understand emptiness through previous analyis and contemplation and through my meditation practice, not through the Heart Sutra.
Aren't people allowed to express other views in this forum - must I be gagged for not conforming with the flock?
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Gagged? You are not shy with your opinions Dazzle.
This is the approach my teachers use in sharing this teaching. Getting stuck on the fanciful story of how it may have been transmitted is a pretty good excuse to discount the sutra and, sadly, never gain it's benefit, okay. It's not for everybody to know the perfection of wisdom.
Nagarjuna's teachings are not meant for common folk anyway, maybe the next life for some.
To really know that stuff happening in and around us is truly empty, is really dependent co-orginating stuff happening, at the level of our own being is no easy task and not accessible through rational discourse or discursive thinking.
I recommend reciting the Heart of the Perfection of Wisdom Sutra or the Heart Sutra, which is the heart or essence of the whole of the Perfection of Wisdom teachings, 108 times per day for a year, while studying Nagarjuna's teachings in compositions like 'The Perfection of Wisdom in 8,000 Lines' or the Madhymika Teachings - for Vajrayana folks - especially Chandrakirti's writings.
I have personally been given and completed the practice of hand copying Nagarjuna's and Chandrakirti's writings. Try it, then if you want to be critical of others you'll be doing so from actual practice, leading to some superficial understanding.
Oh, I've been imagining DD as a sheila.
Bodhisattva Nagarjuna ( 150-250ce ) systematized the wisdom teaching in his Treatise on the Middle Way,
While the Larger Wisdom sutra formed the basis for the Treatise on the Great Perfection of Wisdom in east asian Buddhism, attributed to Nagarjuna.
I translate it in mind as - gone, gone, gone beyond, gone way beyond (distorted views) to wisdom, YES! (with a fist pump).
To understand the meaning of this I had to first clearly and correctly understand it through receiving teachings by real living adepts and studying the sutras and commentaries, and then invest many many of hours of meditation, to habituate myself to being with stuff happening in this way. It's not something gained by book study or speculation.
It's also not something those, who are not ready for it, can ever understand or come to know in direct experience. That's why there are different levels of practice. A living teacher, will know if you are ready for this practice or not, it takes a lot of preliminary work.
In the vows of some schools teaching this stuff is actually a violation, if the mind of the person being taught is not ready.
Those who have actually received and uphold these vows will know what I'm referring to.
So they're meant for the elete like yourself are they Mr B Bob? The chosen ones huh? How very amusing !
If you are familiar with Nagarjuna's Mulamadhyamakakarika then you will know that there's a reference he makes to the "discourse to Katyayana"
Katyayana is another word for Kaccayana. Check sutta SN 12.15 in the Pali Canon to find out more.
Tread carefully though, it's the realm of the common people such as Theravadins who don't have the privileges of Your Highest Specialness....... :hair:
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By the way I just sat down here to take a break from cleaning the Priory/Temple after completing my normal morning meditation and services; including recitation of vows and sutras (Heart Sutra included). I swept, wiped, scrubbed floors on knees, and perfumed the temple shrine. etc. I'm now getting ready to help lead a day-long study and practice with a group of advanced practitioners. I will conduct the services, including recitation of vows and confession of downfalls. How about Dazzle? Do you do this now? Have you ever done so? Oh yes, you were born a Buddhist? You apparently don't have to give your life to the training, except to criticize others, yes?
Dazzle, I agree that all of the Wisdom Teachings are about clarifying 'Right View.' Nobody has ever claimed differently, in my experience.
This thread is a battle of our views. Its hard to resist.
Thank You
Time to go to work, now!
Hence, the teaching of the wisdom sutras works as common base for all the Mahayana teachings , therefore it is the basis of all Mahayana schools and teachings.
In other word, one who do not ready understand the principle of wisdom teaching of non-duality/emptiness - one actually do not know what is the actual core in Mahayana is about , or how to differentiate the essence of the Mahayana teaching for
You said it!, Another work morning spent in the coffe shop :screwy:.
Be careful how you speak about my practice and involvements lest you fall into very grave error.
You know nothing about me because unlike you I don't publicly tell everyone constantly about my personal life, its private.
I certainly don't have to justify myself to a stranger in another country that's for sure.
Bye 4 now.:)
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I can only comment on your public appearance. I personally have no fear of completely exposing who I am and what I do in public. What I write here is exactly who I am there is no discrepancy. If you knew me you would read my words and nod, yep that's Brother Bob! I don't have or want a private life. My aspiration is only to serve others. If speaking the truth, as I see it, about others and self is in any way of benefit, I will do that.
I do notice that you and others appear to hide behind 'avatars' and don't reveal any personal information. Nice! okay, so you're scared, I understand. Now if you want to take pot-shots at others how about coming out from behind your walls and talking about your own practice, who are you and what do you really do to train in the Buddhadharma?
I do also know what it is to have cowardice as a basis of my life and the difference between cowardice and fearlessness.
It is in knowing the 'Wisdom Teachings' which are expressed very well by Nagarjuna and the Heart Sutra that this fearlessness is known.
Try it?
For a very good exposition on the Heart Sutra, try Red Pine's book on the subject. I am mostly familiar with Theravada, but I did like that book. At the very least, you'll get a flavor for how Theravada and Mahayana operate differently for practitioners. IME, trying to bridge the two together will tend to cause a lot of cognitive dissonance and problems. They both speak to different people for different reasons and if Mahayana speaks to you, perhaps look into it more.
If the shoe fits, wear it. If it doesn't, don't. I was actually responding to DD's usual arrogant dismissal of anything to do with Mahayana or Vajrayana.
Palzang
Wow, Bob.
You know nothing about Dazzle, firstly. And no offense, but sutta recitation and sweeping floors doesn't make you Buddhist, either.
You frequently let on that you're more "advanced" and more "Buddhist" than others, it seems.
And frankly, any teachings that are seen as "useless now, maybe useful in some future life" are, in fact, utterly worthless altogether.
I have no doubt of this whatsoever.
I've seen Dazzle talk about her personal practice before.
The Heart Sutra spawns lots of hateful bullshit from both sides of the fence, it seems.
Funny how you're missing out the fact that you sent me an unwanted PM wanting to know my personal offline practice details a while back when I disagreed with you about something.
If your aspiration is to serve others then get off my back, Is this the way you normally behave with women? I'm finding your badgering of me quite creepy now. I don't give a toss about your views of cowardice. Get lost.
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So much aggression. Why?
No, it's a Mahayana sutra, as NR has already pointed out. In fact, it's the defining Mahayana sutra.
Palzang
Why? Why does the mention of this sutra create rancor Mundus? Look at the threads where this beautiful concise Sutra has been presented for discussion. Why do some people feel the need to put down the Mahayana. Do you see Mahayannists posting about Hinayana? No, thats because apart from a few sectarian fools most have gotten with the program that Theravada is a complete but different path. They have educated themselves or been told in no uncertain manner that denigrating the legitiamacy of the Thervada is Un-Dharmic. It is ironic that Theravadins are now the main representaives of sectarian triumphalism online. Yet in person, you never hear this crap. Why?
Just a newbie observation here (and probably waaaay off so I apologise in advance) but didn't the Buddha say in following his teachings to take what works for you and leave the rest?
Does this apply to to the Sutras as well? If it does, maybe the Heart Sutra could be left by those who do not find any meaning or help from it?
Respectfully,
Raven
Timeless Non-Becoming is not other than Endless Becoming. Endless Becoming is not other than Timeless Non-becoming. Between these extremes a sheer presence devours itself and leaves no trace.
Gate Gate Para Gate Parasamgate Bodhi Svaha!!!!!
Gone gone gone..........
cant touch this
I don't know what the Buddha said, but I've said that many times myself.
I didn't say otherwise.
You should all of you, involved in this stupid, pointless, ego-based slanging match.... just see yourselves.
It's shameful, really it is.
All this one-upmanship "look at what a great Buddhist I am" and baiting, bitching and back-biting, and in the beginners forum too.
What will new people think of you.....?
Cut it out.
Childish doesn't cover it.
At the next sign of it, I'll deal with it one-on-one.
Until then, the matter is closed and so is the thread.