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DMT
I hope this isn't against the rules, since this is an illegal drug in most countries...
What do you think the possible explanations for the effects of DMT, within Buddhist cosmology. For those who don't know, it is a drug that causes people to come in contact with "aliens" or some other "higher" type of knowledge. I've never tried it myself, but it sounds fascinating. Is it possible that it is causing people to observe beings in the other realms of existence, like devas, or something along those lines?
What do you think the possible explanations for the effects of DMT, within Buddhist cosmology. For those who don't know, it is a drug that causes people to come in contact with "aliens" or some other "higher" type of knowledge. I've never tried it myself, but it sounds fascinating. Is it possible that it is causing people to observe beings in the other realms of existence, like devas, or something along those lines?
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Comments
This, of course, does not apply to carefully monitored and prescribed drugs, given to those who are suffering from a psychiatric or psychological condition, such as depression, schizophrenia, etc......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWyCCJ6B2WE
Well, I wasn't saying it does. There's a really big difference in seeing a different realm of existence and becoming enlightened.
It's an illusion to an extreme, created by a catalyst you have no control over. And as such, because you have no control over a chemical introduced into your body, it's unwise, unskillful and not recommended, to use such a prop or aid.
It does nothing beneficial to practice, and as such, a person must rely upon their own concentration to bring them the mind-set they seek to achieve.
in other words,Tom: it's a no-no, whichever way you look at it.
Really, if you seek higher knowledge, read a book like everyone else. YOu can't just swallow a pill and gain access to hidden new powers.
Also the brain is really complex, but it's not like a rally car, where you can just pop the hood and tinker inside it... but somehow if you've already entertained the thought of playing Astronaut Jr, then I fear that my message is all for naught.
Ground control to major tom!
By the way, I wasn't considering doing it myself. I admitted did go through a phase in my life where I was using drugs, but I don't plan to go back there. I was only curious if there could be some "physical" evidence of these other realms of existence. As it stands, I have a somewhat hard time believing in all of the heavens/hells/etc etc. Some devout Buddhists I have known only believe them to be analogies for states of mind. To me, it's clear that the texts are literally talking about other planes of existence. It's just not something I can easily believe, so I was trying to cling to whatever evidence might support that theory.
no matter what books, authors or authorities seem to expound them as real planes of existence, remember that life is illusory and transitory and that all compounded phenomena are impermanent and fruits of perception.
So if they're real, they're as 'real' as anything else.
to drop the veil of illusion - and delusion - about all we perceive is one aim (amongst many) and to end suffering, grasping and attachment is the goal.
So.... really, let it go.
It matters little......
Just like everything else.....
To simplify, ask yourself the question:
How important is this, and what does it add to my practice?
Skip it.
Be well, and relax.
It really isn't all that big a deal.
Unless you make it a big deal.
And then.... How big a deal do you need it to be?
Well, since I've vowed to liberate all sentient beings before myself, I'd like to know who all these beings are.
I think you've got it a little backwards. Indeed I wonder how you figure to liberate others if your are not liberated yourself.
<H3><H2>Foreword
</H3></H2>by Stephen Batchelor
It is undeniable that a significant proportion of those drawn to Buddhism and other Eastern traditions in the 1960s (including the present writer) were influenced in their choice of religious orientation by experiences induced by psychoactive substances such as marijuana and LSD. Despite the fact that experimentation with such drugs was illegal, potentially dangerous and unmonitored, the startling shift in consciousness it occasionally provoked was considered to be worth the risks involved. Now, thirty years later, many of these Buddhists are priests, meditation teachers, therapists, college professors, and writers: respected members of the very society against which they rebelled in their youth. Yet although they often eschew the use of psychedelics themselves and warn others of the dangers of abuse, few would deny the role of these substances in opening their eyes to a life of spiritual and religious meaning.
The connection between drug use and spirituality is not, however, limited to the experience of a few aging hippies. The ritualized use of drugs is still practiced among sadhus and shamans of traditional cultures from India to Peru. The current use of drugs such as Ecstasy--originally popular at clubs and raves, but now in numerous shared settings--is likewise associated with heightened states of individual consciousness as well as the forging of a deep ecstatic bond between participants. Language and symbols borrowed from Asian and indigenous American sacred traditions permeate the literature, lyrics, and imagery of underground dance culture, as much as--or even more than--they did in the festivals and happenings of the 1960s.
It is all too easy either to dismiss claims of spiritual significance for drugs as thinly veiled justifications for hedonistic indulgence, or to invoke the tragic consequences of heedless excess as grounds for denying the validity of any drug-induced experience at all. In so doing, one fails to recognize the spiritual aspirations of people who are seeking expression and fulfillment in this way. One likewise ignores the harsh fact that Western societies have lost the ability to address the religious feelings of a considerable segment of their youth.
In swinging between liberal tolerance one moment and outraged repression the next, modern societies seem chronically incapable of reaching consistent attitudes about drugs. Consider, for example, the double standard applied to the achievement of physical, as opposed to cultural, excellence. While a sportsman will have his Olympic medals revoked for using drugs that enhance his performance, a musician would not be stripped of her Grammy awards if it turned out that her songs were composed and played under the influence of an illegal substance. Why are regulations imposed on the behavior of one but not the other? Why should the athlete be punished, but the artist not?
When the broad culture sends out such contradictory messages about drugs, to whom can people turn for informed and sympathetic guidance? If drug use can be linked to spiritual issues, then surely such guidance would be forthcoming from religious leaders. Yet the spokesmen and women of the mainstream denominations seem to have little to say on the subject beyond pious encouragement to abstinence. Traditional schools of Buddhism are no exception. The five lay precepts, which are considered the foundation of ethical behavior--elements of the teachings given by the Buddha in his first sermon after enlightenment--list the taking of intoxicating drugs along with killing, sexual misconduct, theft, and lying as something every good Buddhist is expected to relinquish. Although certain ecstatic Zen masters and Tantric yogins may be deemed sufficiently awakened to be exempt from strict adherence to this precept, there is no discussion about the role that drug use might play in propelling someone onto the path in the first place.
As Buddhism comes of age in the West, it needs both to honor its traditions and respond to the actual conditions of the world in which people live today. Simply reiterating answers to moral issues that have worked well in the past may serve only to alienate those who otherwise would find great value in the Dharma. Before Buddhists can even begin to have a serious discussion about the use and abuse of drugs in contemporary society, there needs to be an acceptance of at least the possibility that certain currently illegal drugs can produce life- and performance-enhancing effects. Such a shift in attitude may require considerably greater openness, understanding, and tolerance from those in the Buddhist community entrusted with offering moral and spiritual guidance.
Although we live in a world in which the widespread consumption of legal, illegal, and prescribed drugs keeps growing, we seem incapable of conducting an intelligent and compassionate debate around their use and abuse. We might be reaching a point where the contradiction between what society doesn't permit and what people actually do in terms of ingesting psychoactive substances becomes intolerable. This contradiction undermines the credibility of those in positions of political and religious authority and fractures the moral consensus needed to hold together an increasingly pluralistic society. Unless the hysteria and repressive blindness around drug use begin to diminish, a sane and constructive response to an issue that threatens to spiral dangerously out of control will elude us.
It is in this context that the voices collected in Zig Zag Zen may offer a much needed wake-up call. The contributors to this volume find themselves in the privileged role of being intermediaries between one culture and another. Because of their position at this moral and spiritual crossroads, they are free to offer a perspective that need not be tied to the dogmatic certainties of either Buddhist or Western traditions. I very much hope that their collective wisdom will not only illuminate the relation between the use of psychedelics and the Buddhist path but, more importantly, help our society as a whole see its way more clearly through the deep confusion that surrounds its attitude to drugs.
Stephen Batchelor
Aquitaine, December 2000
everything isn't simply black and white.
very best wishes,
armando
I'm so tired of the whole 'take a drug to have a spiritual experience' garbage.
It's so tedious.
Buddhism is not about having an experience and it's certainly not about ingesting drugs that affect the mind in order to have some kind of experience. We have enough trouble controlling our brains and their natural chemical/electrical systems as it is.
There is no shortcut.
If you want to sit down with Stephen Batchelor and others to discuss the use of drugs and spirituality go right ahead. But in my humble opinion it's b.s. and a colossal waste of precious time.
That said I really don't understand the point of that wall of text. Is it so that people will be less confused? So that people will no longer be persecuted, or is it just so we can all start getting unlimited access to more dope? Honestly, it pretty vain to hope that your opinion is going to have the power of influence. By telling whoever cares to read, your opinions will suddenly transform. AS though it's the most important thing we really need to sort out right now.
Haha look at me, writing to no-one in particular. Disagreeing with someone in the vain hope that minds will change. Waste of time... anyway, now it is written ... submitting
The people that do this kind of thing are just ordinary junkies with ordinary sense of entitlement and ordinary attitude of being too lazy to think for themselves, so they need a guide to tell them either the obvious or what they want to hear.
Agreed. Buddhism is definitely not about having an experience. That must be one of the most common misconceptions, even by practitioners.
Edit: well I take medications and clearly there is room for substances. Sometimes to escape negative things! I was thinking more along the lines of the habitual samsara, than existing drug therapy. I mean we can use all sorts of things to escape uncertainty and thats not the same thing as taking drugs because you are depressed, in pain, high blood pressure, diabetic, or whatever... I am just cautioning against using drugs to reinforce the tendancy of samsara to dull out.
Sadly, the excessive abuse of mind-altering substances has led to a wholesale backlash against them, and Western culture has thrown out the baby with the bathwater by labeling all drugs as "bad." Mass hysteria and blanket catch-phrases like "just say no" have so permeated the collective consciousness that this whole frontier of human experience has been driven underground.
But I don't believe drugs are "bad" in themselves: they're no less "bad" than anything else. It's the abuse of them, the excessive and irresponsible use of them, that leads to problems. Many mind-expanding substances actually have very useful and beneficial qualities, which could conceivably benefit humanity. If we throw them all out the window in some anti-drug hysteria, we're really just closing our minds; and when has closing minds ever done humanity any good?
If these plants and other substances have certain powers, maybe there's a reason for that. Maybe they exist for a purpose. Drugs figure into the spiritual dimensions of many cultures. Who are we to say the experiences those people are having aren't real? Who are we to say other dimensions aren't somehow being touched? There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in our philosophy.
No one here (presumably) has ever tried DMT, yet it seems almost everyone is squarely against it. What thought process do you follow to do that? Do you "loan out" your mind to the popular media, or to someone else's opinion, effectively basing your decisions on hearsay? How do you invalidate something with no personal experience of it one way or the other? What's your criterion for determining the validity of an experience? Is it whatever someone else tells you is true? That's not how the Buddha did it: he examined everything for himself.
My brother has taken DMT, and he said it was an amazing experience. I haven't tried it myself, but I would be willing to. I don't fear that experience. Nor do I fear the disapproval of people who haven't experienced it themselves, because while they may mean well, they're really just speaking from ignorance. For my part, I don't feel qualified to condemn something I haven't personally experienced, for that strikes me as lacking in intellectual integrity.
I hope my words don't offend or upset anyone here; I respect you all as brothers and sisters in Buddhism; but I felt someone should present another view on the subject. Thanks for listening!
just check whether it is a need or want
if it is a need go for it
it it is just a want forget it
I respect your effort to present a balance to our discussion so let me expand on my earlier post.
I don't base my opinions on hearsay or the popular media but I do base some of my easier decisions on the advice the Buddha gave regarding such things as intoxicating substances. I also have confidence in the many wise people that have come after him who have continued to follow the fifth precept.
I should also tell you that my (physical) functional ability is quite dependent upon drugs as I'm disabled due to a permanent back injury. I'm no stranger to them and I'm no longer ignorant about the benefits and drawbacks of their use. I take a variety of drugs including a psychotropic drug and have used marijuana in the past to treat debilitating and demoralizing neuropathic pain. I also did my share of fooling around with recreational drugs in my youth and have never been accused of being a puritan in this regard.
Although I strongly support its legalization, I no longer use marijuana because I can't handle the side effect of being high everyday. The right pharmaceutical drug combination including a low dose narcotic has no such side effect for me. The pain is managed and I'm able to meditate which was something that was impossible to do when I was using marijuana. The drugs I take are legally prescribed, very closely monitored by doctors, and painstakingly and continually researched.
I'm telling you all this in order to establish my drug cred.
No, but seriously, you won't find a lot of hysterical, anti-drug thinking on my part. I've had to come a long way since my 'no evil pharmaceutical drugs of any kind...ever....' hippie days. That was when I was pretty ignorant and close minded. It took a state of near hell to trump my stubbornness so you really can believe me when I say my open mind regarding this issue was hard won. I hear what you're saying. I really do. It's just that you mention this drug 'experience' over and over and the importance of it is where we disagree:
If Buddhism was a religion concerned mostly with supernatural/mystical experiences and its founder and millions of followers throughout history advocated the use of certain drugs as spiritual aids my answer to the OP would have been different. But he asked: Although I'm sure many Buddhists over the years have had wondrous experiences, we're told by teacher after teacher that these are merely byproducts of practice, not its goal, and we're advised not to become distracted or attached to these amazing experiences because they can so easily become a hindrance to our spiritual growth and understanding.
So at best, to deliberately ingest something like a psychotropic drug in order to induce what may or may not be a spiritual experience is a red herring when it comes to Buddhist practice and understanding in my opinion.
Yeah honey, when they are prescribed by a doctor and they actually have a point.
Drugs don't grow in the middle of the forest and get picked by working men. There is a lot of people dying because of drugs and they are not even users.
They don't.
Including mine. The people doing it these days are screwed up.
Buddhism is about taming the mind.
very best wishes,
armando
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very best wishes,
armando
Thanks, armando. Something important happens in my mind whenever someone describes well the shedding of everything but the core essence. It renews me in a profound way. I appreciate it.
and.....you stayed on topic....just barely....:D
very best wishes,
armando
I tried DMT a few months ago and had the most significant experience of my life. I experienced complete oneness with the universe, it was beyond words. I also felt the cyclical nature of the universe, and the eternal cycles of death and rebirth. I started looking into Buddhism and found it consistent with my experience. I was sympathetic to Buddhism before and basically believed in reincarnation, but I didn't have the experiential 'confirmation'. I was reading online and came across this website and thread. I noticed everybody here condemning DMT and being really judgemental. I know my experience was valuable, and has brought me to Buddhism and made me less judgemental and more compassionate about others (since I know we are all one, so treating others well is the same treating oneself well). I just want to pursue higher awareness now. I hope people on this site won't judge my use of DMT badly, I don't see it as an intoxicant like alcohol, marijuana, etc. I would like to find a supportive community which is open to exploring truth using all available paths and tools, as long as based on compassion and mindfulness.
My feeling on this subject is that Federica made a great point about psychoactives causing an uber illusion to the brain that strays away from a pure sense of being. Sure you may have had an experience that felt particularly enlightening, but take note that the feeling was impermanent. My doctor prescribed me a type of serotonin inhibitor once, and sure it felt great, but instead of curing the anxiety, it blanketed it with an illusion of being happy. Buddhism can help guide you to authentic happiness, so acknowledge that DMT helped you find Buddhism, be grateful for that, leave it aside and continue in the present moment
But I will mention that vision fails sometimes and you are all alone in darkness. The only friend you have then is your own kindness and inquisitiveness. Its basicly galadriels lamp if you have seen lord of the rings. Or good just be a lava lamp. But it is real and it is a light and that which is not a light is false and unreal. One component that rescued myself from the seas of patterns were the wish to be together with loved ones. because that is so meaningful which we know from our mums and dads and girls we favor and so forth. We already have good chemicals all we need to be compassionate and wise.....
But you can also have some amazing experiences. I hope they are a goad to you to find something true and moving.. But that you can share with other people.
Last night, she said:
"Oh, baby, I feel so down.
Oh it turns me off,
When I feel left out"
So I walked out:
"Oh, baby, don't care no more
I know this for sure,
I'm walkin' out that door"
Well, I've been in town for just about fifteen minutes now
And Baby, I feel so down
And I don't know why
I keep walkin' for miles
See, people they don't understand
No, girlfriends, they can't understand
Your Grandsons, they won't understand
On top of this, I ain't ever gonna understand...
Last night, she said:
"Oh, baby, don't feel so down.
Oh, it turns me off,
When I feel left out"
So I, I turn 'round:
"Oh, baby, gonna be alright"
It was a great big lie
'Cause I left that night, yeah
Oh, people they don't understand
No, girlfriends, they won't understand
Your grandsons, they won't understand
And me, I ain't ever gonna understand...
Last night, she said:
"Oh, baby, I feel so down.
See, it turns me off,
When I feel left out"
So I, I turn 'round:
"Oh, little girl, I don't care no more.
I know this for sure,
I'm walking out that door," yeah
Welcome to the site.
I would suggest talking to a qualified Buddhist teacher to see what she/he has to say on the subject.
The best they can do is provide an experience that increases open-mindedness, love of life, compassion and so on. You certainly won't reach any state of enlightenment by this method, though for some it might get them moving in the right direction.
Ultimately drugs are unreliable and risky. They could just as easily cause brain damage or a "bad trip", or even lead to bodily harm of ourselves or others. There's nothing at all scientific about trying to find the truth by using hallucinogens, as they do not provide the same results each time.
If you do them, that's okay. No one is judging, because we're all just trying to find reality here. Just know that using them does not take away the necessity for following the path rightly, applying effort toward the eradication of the defilements and gaining personal insight/experience of the truth. If you think taking hallucinogens is a short-cut to awakening, you're just that much farther from your goal.
And above all, whatever you choose, know that the use of hallucinogens is not a part of Buddhism. Try not to make us all look like hippies, we're misunderstood enough as it is.
Why the devil do people join up to a Buddhist website to discuss DMT, make only a handful of posts on the subject of DMT, and never engage on anything Buddhist related????????
This is rather like joining up to a knitting site and making six posts about grenades.
It seems no buddhist forum is complete without an obligatory DMT thread.
One last thing- yes I am being judgemental. I've seen enough of drug taking to make a judgement. You are free, of course, to make your own mind on the matter, as though this post really speaks to anyone or anything in particular.
BYEEE
From what I heard it has to do with broadening your natural telepathy powers enough so to communicate with aliens that mostly do so by telepathy and then sometimes they come. DMT can also be found in natural mushrooms found in rural wilderness areas of Mexico. I was told about them before they're known as "skin of the gods" from what I remember the translation as. Natives would use them to "communicate" with their deities which in theory could actually be aliens
to be honest, in my opinion, though this might be viewed as somewhat radical or inappropriate by some, drug use can be a beneficial compliment to buddhist practice, taken considerately and mindfully. but society and drugs has and have had a very unstable relationship... so it might be best that little is said.
HA ha!!!! & i think buddhists already are sort of hippies. hippies can be freaks, but in general, people who are the antithesis of a hippie is more of a freak in terms of human nature. conformist, anal, indifferent, television addicted.... etc, are common attributes in the general society. ha hahahahaha... HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
what I MEAN IS, I WOULD LIKE THE HIPPOIE INDENTITY TO DISSOLVE, that is THROUGH THE VERY PROCESS OF PEOPLE BECOMING MORE LIKE "HIPPIES" woooosh
man
that's crazy
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/12/science/12psychedelics.html?partner=rss&emc=rss
<o></o> <o>
</o>Curious why the human body would have need of a hallucinogen, there seems to be a lot of speculation on the matter.
Again, I haven't studied Buddhism much in depth, and am sure I've misunderstood a lot of it, but I intend to study much further now. I'm afraid to tell others that first LSD and then later DMT catalyzed me onto this road (I know it sounds stereotypical too, but so what maybe there really is a connection), if such drugs are so scorned even on forums like this, I can imagine the criticism I would receive out there in the wider world. Come to think of it, if I participate further in this forum, I'll probably have to change my username...