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Having Goals

edited September 2005 in Buddhism Basics
I have been having a hard time with this "idea", so I am hoping you all can help me out. As a Buddhist, you are not supposed to have attachments. So, how do you set personal goals for yourself, without being "attached" to reaching those goals?

Kim

Comments

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited August 2005
    YogaMama, The way I see it is this:

    All Human life has two planes; that which we do on a Spiritual plane (meditation, right everything, the middle way, praying, leading a Good Life...) and a more Practical every-day plane.
    For example: a burglar can repent and admit that what he's done is wrong, ask forgiveness of his victims and change his ways. (Spiritual plane)
    But he still has to accept the consequences, and do the time (Practical plane.)
    Similarly, on a Human level, we all have objectives, goals, desires and wishes.... nothing wrong with that, provided that, on a Spiritual plane, you realise that they are possibly necessary, but definitely transitory. Have and reach your goals, by all means, but the underlying thing is always 'so what?' It's cool.... then let it go. :winkc:
  • edited August 2005
    I don't think I get it..... :confused:
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited August 2005
    Well, I'm sure Simon and Elohim are going to tell us what the differences are between being a "lay" and "non-lay" Buddhist - which is always good. Give me new food for thought...

    But,

    I think one has to have goals to work towards. I mean buying a house, saving for your childs education, saving for vacation, doing community service, etc. all of these things are goals. But, I think the problem becomes when you become so attached to that goal that if you can't attain it or something changes - it brings you suffering.

    I believe the problem with attachments is that they "can" bring suffering.

    I remember I read a Buddhist story one time about a farmer and his neighbor...now I'm sure I don't have all of this right - because I read it a long time ago. But, it goes something like this:

    The farmer had a son who was, oh, let's say working in the barn. A beam fell down and broke the son's leg. The neighbor runs over and says, "oh!, that's too bad!"
    And the farmer said nothing.

    Then, a couple of days later, a press gang came by looking for young men to be soldiers. But, when they saw the son's broken leg, they left him alone. The neighbor comes by and says, "Oh!, lucky your son's leg was broken! He didn't get drafted."
    The farmer said nothing

    And this continues on with something "bad" happening and then something "good" happening. But, I believe, the morale of the story is that these were things that just happened. There was no getting upset or yelling at the kid because he broke his leg and now they had to cancel a fishing trip or something. Everything that happened just "was".

    I don't know if this relates to your question entirely - but you have to plan on things. I think that's just a part of living and providing for your family. When things you plan don't work out - or you find yourself worrying about "how are we going to make it happen" or "what if this happens" or "that happens", etc. and it start causing you to worry, have grief or suffer - you need to let it go.

    Just my $0.02 worth.

    Hopefully someone will pop in with some better and deeper knowledge.

    -bf
  • edited August 2005
    I think that as Buddhists we should be working on reducing attachments. As far as having goals is concerned I dont see any problem with that as long as the goal or what you have to do to achieve that goal doesnt hurt you or others. I am always having to remind myself that it is the middle path.
  • edited August 2005
    Ok, I think I am starting to understand it better. :)

    BF - I have heard that story - thanks for reminding me of it. It does help.
  • edited August 2005
    I fully relate to your problem, however I believe that there is fundementally no problem with setting oneself personal goals....providing they are realistic and achievable. I believe that prehaps stating that you should not form attachments is a bit of a smokescreen...for sure one can argue the point that everything is transitory but that should not ever stop you from seeking to fulfill your dreams or ambitions, but merely to remind you that being too focused on anything can lead to disappointment, heartache, regret and of course failiure. Providing that you know this in advance who am I or indeed who is anyone to tell you what you can and can't do....you clearly combine being both a mother and a wife, so you know how to multi task...so reconciling your day to day life withyour spiritual life should be a walk in the park!
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited August 2005
    YogaMama wrote:
    Ok, I think I am starting to understand it better. :)

    BF - I have heard that story - thanks for reminding me of it. It does help.

    Sorry I botched it - here is the unbuddhafooted version...

    There is a Taoist story of an old farmer who had worked his crops for many years. One day his horse ran away. Upon hearing the news, his neighbors came to visit. "Such bad luck," they said sympathetically.

    "May be," the farmer replied.

    The next morning the horse returned, bringing with it three other wild horses. "How wonderful," the neighbors exclaimed.

    "May be," replied the old man.

    The following day, his son tried to ride one of the untamed horses, was thrown, and broke his leg. The neighbors again came to offer their sympathy on his misfortune.

    "May be," answered the farmer.

    The day after, military officials came to the village to draft young men into the army. Seeing that the son's leg was broken, they passed him by. The neighbors congratulated the farmer on how well things had turned out.

    "May be," said the farmer.
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited August 2005
    Another good one about how we carry things with us. Whether they are goals, desires, wants, anger, jealousy, etc. ...

    Tanzan and Ekido, two monks, were once traveling together down a muddy road. A heavy rain was falling.

    Coming around a bend, they met a lovely girl in a silk kimono and sash, unable to cross a large mud puddle stretching across the road.

    "Come on, girl," said Tanzan at once. Lifting her in his arms, he carried her over the mud.

    Ekido did not speak again until that night when they reached a lodging temple, then he no longer could restrain himself. "We monks don't go near females", he told Tanzan, "especially not young, lovely ones. It is dangerous. Why did you do that?"

    "I left the girl there", said Tanzan. "Are you still carrying her?"
  • edited August 2005
    I liked the buddhafooted version. Maybe I just like the word buddahfooted.
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited August 2005
    Abraham wrote:
    I fully relate to your problem, however I believe that there is fundementally no problem with setting oneself personal goals....providing they are realistic and achievable. I believe that prehaps stating that you should not form attachments is a bit of a smokescreen...for sure one can argue the point that everything is transitory but that should not ever stop you from seeking to fulfill your dreams or ambitions, but merely to remind you that being too focused on anything can lead to disappointment, heartache, regret and of course failiure. Providing that you know this in advance who am I or indeed who is anyone to tell you what you can and can't do....you clearly combine being both a mother and a wife, so you know how to multi task...so reconciling your day to day life withyour spiritual life should be a walk in the park!

    Who let this joker in? Whoever it is, they are in deep doo-doo :)

    -bf
  • comicallyinsanecomicallyinsane Veteran
    edited August 2005
    Sometimes I find worrying about these things is antiproductive. I have goals and I don't see them conflicting with my practice. I think it's more important on how we act if the goal doesn't go the way we wanted or how we act when it does.
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited August 2005
    I would say that you don't have to have attachments or goals.

    The heavier your load of attachments, the harder it is to carry them all. If one feels the need to have goals, attachments, desires, achievements, however, then at least try to make them skillfull ones.

    What are skillfull ones? Anything that doesn't conflict with the first five precepts and the Eightfold Path. Having a goal that helps people, brings joy, or support is skillfull. Being a good parent is an excellent example of a skillfull goal. Being a nurse, doctor, social worker, etc. are all skillfull goals. Of course effort is required to achieve these things and it will be effort well placed.

    If I can use Buddhism as an example maybe it will help. To start out on the Path you need to have an attachment to it. Without one you would not have the effort to practice. Once you begin you may have a set goal, or just an attachment to the practice itself, but it's a skillfull one. You have a desire to practice, an effort to push forward. Without that effort and drive you wouldn't learn any of the teachings, you wouldn't bother to meditate, you wouldn't care at all. But that effort and drive is the motor to your boat across samsara to the 'other shore', as the Buddha sometimes called Nibbana. Yes, there is an attachment, but it's a skillfull one. That initial attachment brought you all the way to Awakening, and freedom from suffering. Once you reach the 'other shore' you can drop that attachment because it is no longer needed.

    The very same principle applies to all things in life. The key is to have a clear head about these things. You have to know when you are too attached. If the attachment ceases to be skillfull you have to be willing to let it go. That is why attachments are so dangerous, because most people cannot see when they must let go. They hold on for dear life until their attachments consume them. This goes for addictions, careers, relationships, everything. Too attached to heroin and you could die. Too attached to a job and you'll work yourself to death or out of a family. Too attached to a relationship and you could become abusive or overbearing. This list goes on and on.

    Greed, hatred, and delusion (the kilesas) are not as easy to outwit as you think. They control your actions more than you may suspect. When you set personal goals for yourself expect there to be attachments, just watch out that these attachments don't do you more harm than good.

    As the Grail Knight from Indian Jones and the last Crusade once said, "Choose, but choose wisely."

    Jason
  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited August 2005
    The Japanese word for monk is "unsui", which translates as cloud. In other words, a cloud passes over the landscape freely without attaching to anything and without goals or purpose. It just is.

    The Japanese also have a word for enlightenment that translates as "the goaless goal". In other words, if you try to grasp for a goal, you'll never succeed, but without a goal, you'll never move forward.

    That ought to clear things up...

    Palzang
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited August 2005
    ;) clear as tinted glass!
  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited August 2005
    Always happy to help! welcome3xf.gif

    Palzangpo
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited August 2005
    :lol: Glad to see around again!
  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited August 2005
    Good to be back. I was down in the Gobi for a week. Very hot down there (100 deg F), but we got to witness the new hat being placed on the 10,000 Knives Guru Rinpoche statue at the monastery there. The story of the 10,000 Knives statue is quite fascinating. It was constructed at the behest of Danzan Ravjaa, the Fifth Noyon Hutagt, or Terrible Dharma Lord of the Gobi, who lived in the first half of the 19th Century. The story goes that a Chinaman was stabbed to death by a Mongol, and it so upset the populace that he asked every family to donate one knife. These were melted down and formed into a statue of Guru Rinpoche (Padmasambhava). After that no more murders occurred, so it must have worked.

    When the Communist purges of the 1930s hit the monastery (called Hamar Monastery, or "Nose" Monastery after a nose-shaped hill nearby), the monastery was obliterated along with the monks who lived there. The statue disappeared for years and only resurfaced in 2000 when Altangerel, the guardian of Danzan Ravjaa's heritage, saw it on TV at an art exhibit. He managed to reclaim the statue for the monastery, which took until last year, but the hat was missing. This year a new hat was fashioned from solid silver and gold plated. Jewels from India, Tibet and the Gobi were placed in the hat as well as knife blades from a prison, a nearby Army base where there have been murders, and a slaughterhouse. Last Monday was the installation of the hat on the statue, and several "red hat" lamas from Ulaan Baatar came for the ceremony. Shaaravdorj, the Mongolian Minister of Defense and Member of Parliament from Dornogov, the province where the monastery is located, was the one who had the hat made as he is also a devout Buddhist and a key supporter of the rebuilding of the monastery. Of course, there were also a couple of itinerant American monks there for the ceremony as well, trying not to get in the way or stumble over anything.

    You can read all about it and see pictures on "Dreaming of Danzan Ravjaa", a blog created by the other monk here, Konchog Norbu. Just do a Google on it.

    Palzang
  • edited August 2005
    Palzang wrote:
    The Japanese word for monk is "unsui", which translates as cloud. In other words, a cloud passes over the landscape freely without attaching to anything and without goals or purpose. It just is.

    The Japanese also have a word for enlightenment that translates as "the goaless goal". In other words, if you try to grasp for a goal, you'll never succeed, but without a goal, you'll never move forward.

    That ought to clear things up...

    Palzang

    Just as I started to understand it all, you confused me again! ;)

    Thanks for all of the replies...you all have been a huge help. I think I get it.....now I just need to work on understanding "attachments" when it comes to loved ones!
  • comicallyinsanecomicallyinsane Veteran
    edited August 2005
    Ah I see. To have a goal without having a goal. Bit of a brain teaser. :banghead:
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited August 2005
    YogaMama wrote:
    Just as I started to understand it all, you confused me again! ;)

    Thanks for all of the replies...you all have been a huge help. I think I get it.....now I just need to work on understanding "attachments" when it comes to loved ones!


    There was a post on this very subject by Elohim on the difference between attachment and clinging, when it comes to personal relationships. I kept the text, but I'm sure he could download it for you if you ask him. Very clear and quite a good explanation on how you can still have emotional attachments without them becoming 'negative'. If he can't find it, I will..... :)
  • edited September 2005
    I would love to read that if you or Elohim find it!
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited September 2005
    Fede, I am unsure of which post that was. If you know which one, or have it yourself please post it for me. :) Thank you.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited September 2005
    I believe this was it:

    The Cling-Free Relationship

    Can we have attachments that are healthy ? Yes, said the Buddha -- in fact, we need them .

    By Thanissaro Bhikkhu

    When you read the Buddha’s teachings, there are two things you should ask yourself :

    Is he speaking the same language as I do ? Is he aiming his comments at people of my level of practice ?

    By clearing up any misunderstandings around these two issues, you will be able to figure out how to apply his teachings to your own life.

    For example, with the language of attachment , most people are referring to emotional attachment, which the Buddha analyzed into a whole cluster of positive factors -- such as :

    affection, gratitude, trust, and commitment -- as well as some negative ones, such as clinging and emotional bias.

    While it is said that the Buddha teaches us to be free of emotional attachments, what he actually said is to be free from clinging. When you cling, you latch on to a relationship in the hope that it will bring you true happiness by satisfying your desires and shoring up your sense of who you are.

    With clinging, even your affection, trust, and sense of commitment can cause you to suffer. It will fuel your emotional bias so that you act under the power of likes and dislikes, delusions and fears, creating even more suffering for yourself and others.

    But if you can learn to look for happiness inside -- which means straightening out your relationship with yourself -- that takes a huge load off your relationships with others. The sense of affection, trust, and commitment you feel for people who are close to you won’t cause you to suffer.

    As for level of practice, the fully awakened person treats all people fairly and with genuine goodwill. But on the way to becoming awakened, you’ll first have to develop wise relationships with the people around you.

    If your loved ones can’t rely on your affection, commitment, and gratitude, how will all sentient beings be able to rely on your goodwill ? This is true for both laypeople and for monks and nuns.

    The Buddha’s teachings are full of good advice on how to develop warm, trusting relationships with your family and friends.

    As for monks, each newly ordained monastic is told to regard his preceptor as his father. The preceptor, in turn, is taught to regard the new monk as his son. The student monk’s relationship to his teacher is literally called ' dependence '. The teacher’s duty is to train the student to become independent within five to 10 years. But the affection, trust, and gratitude of the relationship are expected to last as long as they are both alive and ordained.

    So when you look at the language and level of the Buddha’s teachings on attachment, you’ll see that he wasn’t advising against special friends or monogamous relationships. He’s just telling you not to cling to those relationships in a way that will cause suffering.

    :)
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited September 2005
    Oh yea, that was a while ago. I completely forgot that one. Thank you Fede! :)

    I know you're not really the village idiot, it's just your cover. ;)
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited September 2005
    So young... so wise.... and he doesn't know it..... *sigh*....



    *giggle*....!!
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