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if suffering is just caused by our own minds, why should we exercise compassion?

dreamerdreamer
edited March 2010 in Buddhism Basics
why not treat people like crap if it is their own fault for suffering and not ours? and i guess you think all the suffering of those in the Holocaust and of starving children is their own fault?
also how can you say ALL our suffering is in our control? if we trip and break a leg, then we will have pain. regardless of how positively you try to look at your experience of pain, it is still a form of suffering. unless you define suffering differently?
and also, even if you could be free of suffering, why would you want to? when you look at suffering in the world, wouldnt it be kind of heartless and sadistic to be happy rather than sad about it? and dont you want to sometimes feel sadness and heartbreak and loneliness? if you dont experience those things, you might as well have a frontal lobotomy or something...
and also, what is the purpose of happiness? i know it's human nature to desire to be happy, but what is the purpose of fulfilling that desire, and what is the purpose of that purpose, and the purpose of the purpose of that purpose and so on? that sets up an infinite regress that no one can answer; meaning there can be no ultimate purposes to happiness nor anything else

i dont mean to attack, i just want to know how buddhists specifically respond to these

Comments

  • GlowGlow Veteran
    edited March 2010
    Buddhism makes a distinction between pain and suffering. In life, pain is inevitable. Life brings to everyone adversities, even tragedies. Suffering, however, is a reaction in which, instead of accepting what reality brings us and acting accordingly, causes us to wallow in mental anguish. This includes accepting our own emotions, such as loneliness, or heartbreak, or anger, or anguish. Buddhism is not about emotional castration. In fact, it's about opening to your emotional life wholeheartedly and, instead of trying to make your painful emotions wrong or unacceptable, allowing them to be just as they are, learning from them, and going about acting in the world in as compassioante a way as possible.

    The Buddha used the metaphor of two arrows. He asked his monks: "If a man were to be shot by an arrow, would that not be a terrible thing?"

    The monks agreed that, yes, that would indeed be terrible.

    He then asked: "If that same man were to be shot by a second arrow, would that not be even worse?"

    The monks agreed that, yes, indeed that would be two times as bad.

    Life often hits us with the first arrow (the initial adversity or tragedy). But we often shoot ourselves with the second arrow (unwillingness to accept that there is pain in this world).

    Another way to think about it is this story from Ezra Bayda's Being Zen:
    Once a farmer went to tell the Buddha about his problems. He described his difficulties farming – how either droughts or monsoons complicated his work. He told the Buddha about his wife – how even though he loved her, there were certain things about her he wished to change. Likewise with his children – yes, he loved them, but they weren’t turning out quite the way he wanted. When he was finished, he asked how the Buddha could help him with his problems.

    The Buddha replied, “I’m sorry but I can’t help you.”

    “What do you mean?” railed the farmer. “You’re supposed to be a great teacher!”

    The Buddha replied, “Sir, it’s like this. All human beings have eighty-three problems. It’s a fact of life. Sure, a few problems will go away now and then, but soon enough others will arise. So we’ll always have eighty-three problems.”

    The farmer responded indignantly, “Then what’s the good of all your teaching?”

    The Buddha said, “My teaching can’t help with the eighty-three problems, but it can help with the eighty-fourth problem.”

    What’s that?” asked the farmer.

    “The eighty-fourth problem is that we don’t want to have any problems.”

    Although we may not realise it, we all have a deep-seated belief that if we practice long and hard enough, our problems will go away. And beneath that belief lies an even deeper one: that our life should be free from pain.

    Although these beliefs are what bring us to practice, a life free of difficulties is not what practice is about. Practice is about becoming awake to the truth of who we are. As we practice, our relationship to our problems may, in fact, become less burdened. But as conditioned beings, living in a messy world, we will always have difficulties. We will always have eighty-three problems.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited March 2010
    The state of wishing ill will on others is itself a state of suffering. A distortion of our true nature. Compassion radiates naturally when you let go of grasping (prapanca).

    Feeling sadness or anger at suffering is the beginning of bodhicitta. The wish to become enlightened for the benefit of all beings. It is a raw tender feeling that initially it feels like too much sensitivity; too tender.
  • jinzangjinzang Veteran
    edited March 2010
    why not treat people like crap if it is their own fault for suffering and not ours?

    Why would I want to treat anyone like crap? How would make my life better? And how is the fact that someone caused their own pain relevant? They didn't know any better and it would be good to help them out.
    i guess you think all the suffering of those in the Holocaust and of starving children is their own fault?

    I don't think assessing blame is helpful. Showing people how they can improve their lives is.
    how can you say ALL our suffering is in our control? if we trip and break a leg, then we will have pain. regardless of how positively you try to look at your experience of pain, it is still a form of suffering. unless you define suffering differently?

    Even the painful experiences in life have a lesson to teach us. If the pain is the price of the lesson, then in my opinion, it can't be considered suffering any more than paying money could be considered losing it.
    even if you could be free of suffering, why would you want to? when you look at suffering in the world, wouldnt it be kind of heartless and sadistic to be happy rather than sad about it?

    If you have a problem and worry about it, does that solve the original problem? No, you've added a second problem to the first. Isn't it the same if you worry about the world's problems?
    dont you want to sometimes feel sadness and heartbreak and loneliness? if you dont experience those things, you might as well have a frontal lobotomy or something...

    Everyone has experienced negative emotions. But why would you want to keep experiencing them?
    What is the purpose of happiness? i know it's human nature to desire to be happy, but what is the purpose of fulfilling that desire, and what is the purpose of that purpose, and the purpose of the purpose of that purpose and so on? that sets up an infinite regress that no one can answer;

    Happiness is its own justification and needs no further justification for itself
    i dont mean to attack, i just want to know how buddhists specifically respond to these

    I'm only one Buddhist. Other people may have different answers.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited March 2010
    dreamer wrote: »
    why not treat people like crap if it is their own fault for suffering and not ours?
    Because the Buddha taught the origins of suffering, and the cessation of suffering. Whomsoever is suffering is needful of compassion, whether they seek it or not, ask for it or not, or have directly caused their own suffering or not.We all need a bit of love and understanding - even those judged by many to not deserve it.
    Would you like to be treated compassionately, or coldly?
    Would you prefer people to be kind towards you, or cruel?
    So why would you consider it right to treat others in any less a way than you would like to be treated yourself?
    and i guess you think all the suffering of those in the Holocaust and of starving children is their own fault?
    You guess wrong.
    The Laws of Kamma (if indeed this is what you are referring to) are far too complex for us to ever decide whom is deserving of what. That's not for us to know or apply.
    But nobody is ever deserving of cruelty, or inhuman behaviour, and nobody who is victim to the deplorable cruelty of another, has fault in that.
    also how can you say ALL our suffering is in our control? if we trip and break a leg, then we will have pain. regardless of how positively you try to look at your experience of pain, it is still a form of suffering. unless you define suffering differently?
    You must understand that there are different types of "suffering".
    And let me just say this:
    Suffering - whilst widely and generally accepted as a translation of 'dukkha', is not necessarily completely accurate. other terms exist, like 'stressful' or unsatisfactory'... so try not to become fixated on the term 'suffering'....

    There is physical suffering, emotional suffering and psychological suffering.
    The physical is a fact of life. Often, whilst our bodies go through a physically demanding experience, we suffer pain, discomfort, torment, and physical debility.
    This, we must accept, because dying is the ultimate result. Nobody to date has ever escaped this. So, it's best to make friends with the deteriorative process, and take what comes....
    But our desires and craving are a different kind altogether. Emotional and psychological suffering is something we can address, accept, rise above and eliminate.
    and also, even if you could be free of suffering, why would you want to? when you look at suffering in the world, wouldnt it be kind of heartless and sadistic to be happy rather than sad about it?
    No, but acceptance of personal suffering is what creates a rock-solid serenity, in the midst of the maelstrom of events around us. We may not have the power to calm the storm, but a good, self-built shelter will do wonders....
    and dont you want to sometimes feel sadness and heartbreak and loneliness? if you dont experience those things, you might as well have a frontal lobotomy or something...
    We all experience these things, but wish - at the time, -rather, that we didn't. I feel those oppressive and debilitating, limiting and destructive emotions less and less. I used to feel them acutely, deeply and a great deal.
    I can tell you which state I prefer, and I'm not going back....No full-frontal lobotomy here.
    and also, what is the purpose of happiness? i know it's human nature to desire to be happy, but what is the purpose of fulfilling that desire, and what is the purpose of that purpose, and the purpose of the purpose of that purpose and so on? that sets up an infinite regress that no one can answer; meaning there can be no ultimate purposes to happiness nor anything else
    I can be serene and content all the time, even in my UN-happiness.
    Happiness might be differentiated from contentment and serenity... I find the former ephemeral and transitory. Finding a level of contentment and acceptance of things as they are, however they are, is very fulfilling and satisfying.....I define contentment and serenity as long-lasting and abiding....
    i dont mean to attack, i just want to know how buddhists specifically respond to these
    It's how I have responded. Others will almost assuredly give you different perspectives. :)
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited March 2010
    Saying "suffering is just caused by our own minds" is like saying "leukemia is just caused by runaway mitosis." Why does that cause matter?
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited March 2010
    fivebells wrote: »
    Saying "suffering is just caused by our own minds" is like saying "leukemia is just caused by runaway mitosis." Why does that cause matter?
    It means it is immediately workable, unlike cancer.
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited March 2010
    dreamer wrote: »
    why not treat people like crap if it is their own fault for suffering and not ours?
    To treat people like crap causes suffering for oneself.

    :)
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited March 2010
    Richard Herman wrote: »
    It means it is immediately workable, unlike cancer.
    Anyone who's struggled with addiction or the like would disagree.
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited March 2010
    fivebells wrote: »
    Anyone who's struggled with addiction or the like would disagree.
    Yes they would, especially if that addiction is impairing their mind. Mindfulness isn't the cure for a heroin addict. For the non-addicted, and non-impaired its different.
  • still_learningstill_learning Veteran
    edited March 2010
    I forget where but I read that suffering isn't the correct word. When Buddha talks about Dhuka (the actual word), it was translated to then English word "suffering". When Dhuka more closely means something like "can not be satisfied".

    Our "suffering" or "dissatisfaction" is all in our minds. In our minds we have all these attachments that cause "dissatisfaction". Not actual physical suffering.

    Can someone more knowledgeable back me up on this?
  • pegembarapegembara Veteran
    edited March 2010
    why not treat people like crap if it is their own fault for suffering and not ours?

    Because it is selfish.
    also how can you say ALL our suffering is in our control? if we trip and break a leg, then we will have pain. regardless of how positively you try to look at your experience of pain, it is still a form of suffering. unless you define suffering differently?

    Pain is suffering. Don't need to add to the suffering by making up stories.
    and also, even if you could be free of suffering, why would you want to?

    Why not?
    when you look at suffering in the world, wouldnt it be kind of heartless and sadistic to be happy rather than sad about it?

    Not happy nor sad but to accept that the world is like this.
    i know it's human nature to desire to be happy, but what is the purpose of fulfilling that desire,

    When are desires permanently fulfilled?
  • DazzleDazzle
    edited March 2010
    dreamer wrote: »
    why not treat people like crap if it is their own fault for suffering and not ours?


    Buddha said :
    The Four Exalted Dwellings

    "The disciple of the Noble Ones, Kalamas, who in this way is devoid of coveting, devoid of ill will, undeluded, clearly comprehending and mindful, dwells, having pervaded, with the thought of amity, one quarter; likewise the second; likewise the third; likewise the fourth; so above, below, and across; he dwells, having pervaded because of the existence in it of all living beings, everywhere, the entire world, with the great, exalted, boundless thought of amity that is free of hate or malice.

    "He lives, having pervaded, with the thought of compassion, one quarter; likewise the second; likewise the third; likewise the fourth; so above, below, and across; he dwells, having pervaded because of the existence in it of all living beings, everywhere, the entire world, with the great, exalted, boundless thought of compassion that is free of hate or malice.

    "He lives, having pervaded, with the thought of gladness, one quarter; likewise the second; likewise the third; likewise the fourth; so above, below, and across; he dwells, having pervaded because of the existence in it of all living beings, everywhere, the entire world, with the great, exalted, boundless thought of gladness that is free of hate or malice.

    "He lives, having pervaded, with the thought of equanimity, one quarter; likewise the second; likewise the third; likewise the fourth; so above, below, and across; he dwells, having pervaded because of the existence in it of all living beings, everywhere, the entire world, with the great, exalted, boundless thought of equanimity that is free of hate or malice."

    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wheel008.html




    .
  • ansannaansanna Veteran
    edited March 2010
    it is like the analogy , when you are unable to wake up from your unpleasant dream and in that dream you attempt to unkind and harm the other characters inside your dream, but physically you are actually hurting your own body & limbs , this in return making your dream even more unpleasant and delayed the time able to wake up from it

    likewise from Mahayana perspective, from the point of relative truth , you might perceive the other people outside your life not related to you
    but in the realm of absulote truth , all those characters outside your lide are actually part of you , the phenomena is created by your own mind. when you do not deleveop any compassion and treat other in respect - actually you are hurting your own body and mind , and continue to poison your own mind and got locked inside false reality you created for yourself
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