Freedom from All Notions? (self and nonself?)

Redsaint

I have heard that one of the "goals" i guess you could say in Buddhism is the freedom from notions, freedom from all points of view, ect. I think Buddha said something along the lines of it being better to believe in self than to get caught up in the notion of nonself (but don't quote me on that. I'm new to this stuff.) I have read about the notion of nonself, and interbeing, ect. And my question is, how would one go about removing BOTH notions of self and nonself? It seems like you either think that there is an independent individual self, or you think that things are connected and that we aren't an independent "self"--but more of a temporary coming together of certain elements, we arise, then cease--, how do you release both notions and not hold on to one of them? If you accept the notion of nonself, that cancels out the notion of self, but then how would you get rid of the notion of nonself?

tony67

I'm unsure how you can remove a notion of self with out having a notion of non-self. Perhaps if you are truly non-self then you do not have the notion? Or if your dead!

Stephen

You could say that the entire goal is concerned with the realization of non-self. We realize that there is no permanent, unchanging self, no soul... only the results of conditions. Conditions that brought us forth, conditions that perpetuate our existence. The creation of this illusory self is a mere trick of the mind that occurs based on conditions as well, and when we begin creating attachments and supports for that self, the conditions for a desire of becoming, of continued existence, become prevalent. Our sense of self and fear of death are not early childhood things, but they take time to develop. We learn this self; it is not of our true nature.

When we realize there is no self, that we are only conditioned, and that the attachments, aversions and delusions we associate with this "self" are the reasons we suffer unnecessarily, we seek the unconditioned state, which is Nibbana/Nirvana. We abandon the self delusion and systematically unfetter ourselves from the wrong views that bind us. These are the four stages of enlightenment, or awakening, to the true reality of all phenomena.

Jeffrey

I recommend the book Progressive Stages of Meditation on Emptiness...

It shows 5 stages of understanding on emptiness from the shravaka level which is seeing all skandas as empty to the cittimattra which is mind only (I didn't understand too well) to the sautantrika in which all phenominon are seen to be composed of impermanent parts and thus all empty of self.

By the time you hit Prasangika you are at the level beyond concepts although the Shentong holds that there is a subtle clinging still to the idea of non-self.

Its a little controversial (to me) that it is presented as a progression (or evolution) with shentong (means emptiness of other) presented as the top view. Because many of the schools of Tibetan Buddhism teach the prasangika view as the highest view. Nonetheless it does give you a flavor for each of the different views and you can always read a different book to find out the other side of the story.

DhammaDhatu

The buddha taught the realisation of non-self. But after it is realised, the buddha taught a mind should not attach to such as state of 'non-being'.

Instead, the mind should see clearly what the 'self' is.

This is why the buddha taught 'not-self'. The 'self' is not-self and the 'no-self' is not-self.

Even a Buddha must use the word 'self' when talking.

DhammaDhatu

Redsaint wrote: »

And my question is, how would one go about removing BOTH notions of self and nonself?

We must also see the thought of self is merely another element.

Often we take the absence of self-thinking to be enlightenment.

This is not enlightenment.

Enlightenment sees 'self thinking' as another element, as impersonal.

A teacher once said: "You are a self that is not a real self. If you do not understand this, you do not understand Buddhism".

Kind regards

jinzang

The aim of Buddhism is an awareness that is that is beyond any limiting conceptions, including self and non-self. Since the awareness is non-conceptual, it doesn't need to choose one or the other as true.

fivebells

Redsaint wrote: »

If you accept the notion of nonself, that cancels out the notion of self, but then how would you get rid of the notion of nonself?

No riddance is involved. The notion can arise without awareness attaching to it.

RenGalskap

When I'm focused on what I'm doing, the ideas of self and non-self don't come up.

ravkes

jinzang is correct, do you really know anything about life? ask yourself that question and then see if you can even understand where this supposed 'logic' arises from.. Keep in mind once upon a time all the sciences were considered branches of philosophy. Not sure why they still aren't so.. Millions of men desperately fleeing from illusory suffering because they've cut up reality into 'logical' pieces instead of seeing it as it is.

Stephen

The realization of Non-Self is the first step. It is not a simultaneous process to know both non-self and self, but part of a chain of awakening. You understand the concept of Non-Self, eventually realize this truth, then you understand the concept of Self correctly and work toward achieving the mental state where the Non-Self no longer persists. Only then is the True Self the persistent mental state; the state of full enlightenment.

It is only useful to try and put these concepts into words until you have realized them; afterward, such concepts as Self and Non-Self lose their importance to you as far as conventional definitions. The Buddha spoke such words as were capable of conveying the best conceptual meaning of his experiences as possible, but even the best of them can not compete with your own realization of these truths.

Deshy

Dhamma Dhatu wrote: »

Often we take the absence of self-thinking to be enlightenment.

This is not enlightenment.

Enlightenment sees 'self thinking' as another element, as impersonal.

Very good advice as always