Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Examples: Monday, today, last week, Mar 26, 3/26/04
Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.

Two Types of Buddhists...

GlowGlow Veteran
edited April 2010 in Buddhism Basics
Buddhism has been attracting many people in Western countries in which there has not traditionally been a Buddhist monastic community. I myself was one such person and found in Buddhism a unique possibility for peace in this ever hectic world and a morality based, not on the whim of some external deity or the threat of post-mortem damnation, but on the truth of suffering in the here and now.

However, I think it would be wise to consider the traditional delineation Asian Buddhism makes between (1) lay followers and (2) monastic renunciants. (Hence, the title of this thread.) Much confusion and needless divisiveness IMO is the result of people trying to have their cake and eat it too. In other words: trying to pursue life as a lay person in Western society with its humanistic values while simultaneously pursuing the path of renunciation required of Buddhism. Many people, upon reading the words of the Buddha of the Pali canon, are struck by their characteristic austerity.

Yet, this balancing act is rather tenuous. How does one conceivably pursue romantic relationships while simultaneously heeding the Buddha's exhortation to extinguish sensual passions with the earnestness of one whose hair was caught on fire? Or his reply to the monk Arittha that one cannot engage sensual desire (understood in the commentaries as engaging in sex) without consequent attachment? The Buddha states in no uncertain terms that sensual desire is an obstacle on the path to nirvana.

I think it is important that we admit the limitations of Buddhist practice within the context of lay existence. It would save newcomers considerable confusion and frustration to make clear that the aim of classical Buddhism has been the complete extinguishment of craving for this world (later manifest in further "becoming" -- classical understood as rebirth) -- a goal perhaps not realistic or even healthy for those who, by necessity or choice, need to stay engaged in secular life. This would also prevent the categorical dismissal or misrepresentation some Western lay practitioners have of the monastic tradition, in all its austerity.

The Buddha himself made a distinction between his lay followers (upasaka/upisaka) and those who left worldly life for the homeless existence of a monk (bhikkhu). His prescriptions for lay followers were much less austere; he essentially expected them only to follow the first five precepts. They were allowed to marry. They were allowed to have sex and pursue careers. They were not, however, expected to follow the monastic renunciation of sensual desire, music, etc. In the Jivaka Sutta, his description of a lay follower is relatively simple: one who practices generosity, virtue, and remembers to practice the Dhamma to the best of his/her ability.

Ultimately, I guess my point would be that, rather than attempting the Sisyphian task of attempting to shoehorn the austerity of classical Buddhism into 21st century secular existence, or attempt to reconstitute classical Buddhism through the lens of secular humanism, we remind ourselves and others to keep things in perspective and practice the Buddha's message to the extent that it can prevent suffering in our lives and those we touch and not obsess about the rest.

Comments

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited March 2010
    Nonetheless I believe anyone can learn from buddha's teachings whether they are monastic or lay. Theravadin, Tibetan, Pure land, or Zen. If something from a teaching is not working for you that in itself is interesting. Perhaps it is more interesting to say that I am in a love affair and the rules for monastics feel restrictive to me. Than it is to say oh I shouldn't be the way I am I will not attain enlightenment because I am not monastic. I think the latter just adds to the suffering. Until you have had some glimpses of the heart of buddhism you don't really see any point to renunciation and committment to the path. But wherever you are there is a starting point to find the dharma. With time these glimpses will kind of haunt you and act as a goad to the renunciation and committment.
  • GlowGlow Veteran
    edited March 2010
    Oh, I definitely agree with you, jeffrey, that people can learn from the Buddha's teaching, monastic or lay. Still, I think that, since many lay people are not coming to Buddhism with the expectation or desire to reach nirvana as it's been traditionally defined, it might be helpful to remember the delineation. At least for myself, that was something that has helped me.
  • edited March 2010
    i am not very experienced in love but i believe that when two people are truly in love , the sexual act overcomes the sensual desire usual to intercourse, and instead is a manifestation wholly of that love. i also think, though i have to admit from a 21st century american point of view, that in buddha's time they may have been more austere than is actually what is required, well, in a way. for instance, an enlightened person may not crave after food any longer, their tongue is no longer enchained in desire anymore, but this does not mean they stop eating it, and cease to enjoy it while they are eating it, as far as i know... in pure love, this may be the same thing,, to eat the cake only when eating it, and not dreaming of it before, or after... however, these are just my beliefs. what is necessary (as laymen/laywomen) is not that we renounce all form of sensual pleasure, but that we regulate it to a positive degree, in accord with our spiritual goals, and most importantLY, cleanse our inner being, strike attachment at its root,, even for a monastic to say 'i would like a bowl of grapes' when they can easily get it, is not attachment, at least not absolutely, and yet it's sensual desire in essence,, when it's an ego driven sense desire it's a problem
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited March 2010
    Traditionally in Tibetan buddhism there would be three levels of practice for buddhism: to have a good life, to escape the cycle of birth and death, to go back into the cycles of birth and death in order to liberate beings from suffering (my words and probably not a level of practice I am aware of in myself).
  • GlowGlow Veteran
    edited March 2010
    i am not very experienced in love but i believe that when two people are truly in love , the sexual act overcomes the sensual desire usual to intercourse, and instead is a manifestation wholly of that love. i also think, though i have to admit from a 21st century american point of view, that in buddha's time they may have been more austere than is actually what is required, well, in a way. for instance, an enlightened person may not crave after food any longer, their tongue is no longer enchained in desire anymore, but this does not mean they stop eating it, and cease to enjoy it while they are eating it, as far as i know... in pure love, this may be the same thing,, to eat the cake only when eating it, and not dreaming of it before, or after... however, these are just my beliefs. what is necessary (as laymen/laywomen) is not that we renounce all form of sensual pleasure, but that we regulate it to a positive degree, in accord with our spiritual goals, and most importantLY, cleanse our inner being, strike attachment at its root,, even for a monastic to say 'i would like a bowl of grapes' when they can easily get it, is not attachment, at least not absolutely, and yet it's sensual desire in essence,, when it's an ego driven sense desire it's a problem
    IME, the sensual desire tends to dominate during intercourse; love and affection is still there, but satisfying sex is usually based on the impulse towards sensual pleasure. I agree, though, that as lay practitioners, we need not renounce all sensual pleasure. Another thing to remember is that one need not become a Buddhist at all to benefit from Buddhist teaching; one could hold humanistic values and still benefit from meditation, Buddhist psychology, etc.
    Jeffrey wrote: »
    Traditionally in Tibetan buddhism there would be three levels of practice for buddhism: to have a good life, to escape the cycle of birth and death, to go back into the cycles of birth and death in order to liberate beings from suffering (my words and probably not a level of practice I am aware of in myself).
    Very interesting. I think my practice would fit into the first level (to have a good life).
  • edited March 2010
    "True renunciation does not mean running away physically from the world. Sariputta, the chief disciple of the Buddha, said that one man might live in a forest devoting himself to ascetic practices but might be full of impure thoughts and 'defilements'; another might live in a village or a town, practising no ascetic discipline, but his mind might be pure, and free from 'defilements'. Of these two, said Sariputta, the one who lives a pure life in the village or town is definitely far superior to, and greater than, the one who lives in the forest." {adapted from: What the Buddha Taught - Walpola Rahula}
  • edited March 2010
    What it boils down to is that it does not matter in which situation you find yourself; whether a lay disciple or a Buddhist monk. The monastic life simply makes it easier to disassociate from the distractions, and entrappings, of the lay life.

    Whatever your situation is, it is entirely your ability to conduct your practice within yourself despite any external conditions that leads to the goal. That is why it is conceded that a lay Buddhist may reach full enlightenment, but it is much less probable than a bhikkhu doing the same.

    There is really nothing more to it. It is the case where it depends upon each individual. I'm out... :)
  • edited April 2010
    I am going to agree with sukhita on this way. Renunciation is more of a mental state rather than some sort of actual action.
  • GuyCGuyC Veteran
    edited April 2010
    IME, the external observance of precepts is definitely supportive of the internal Right Intention of Renunciation. Both are important. Similarly, a peaceful and quiet external environment is highly conducive to the development of a peaceful and quiet mind.

    I keep the Eight Precepts, and feel much more free than I did when I was keeping only the Five Precepts. When I was keeping the Five Precepts I was much more free than when I kept no precepts.
Sign In or Register to comment.