Anapanasati

widfola

Does Anapanasati mean mindfulness OF breathing or WITH breathing. I ask simply because if it means with, then certain aspects of the suttas become clearer. The word sati can retain its real meaning of recollection/awareness. If you read the following sutta and replace the words "of breathing" with "with breathing" and the English translation "mindfull/mindully/mindfulness" with the the word "recollection/awareness" then the sutta makes sense and the commentaries explanation of Sariputta's "mistake" can be discarded. Any sati/recollection can be undertaken WITH breathing:-

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.062.than.html

Just an idea
:scratch:

Deshy

It means mindfulness WITH breathing. We use the breath to gain samadhi (attentive stillness of the mind) as wisdom can arise in a still mind not in a mind clouded with thoughts and rationalizations.

You might find this helpful

fivebells

Personally, I've started practicing mindfulness without breathing. Anapanasati just got too easy.

DhammaDhatu

widfola wrote: »

Does Anapanasati mean mindfulness OF breathing or WITH breathing. I ask simply because if it means with, then certain aspects of the suttas become clearer.

Hi Widfola

The primary purpose of mindfulness in Buddhism is to deliver wisdom & other skilful dhammas to the mind. Mindfulness is recollection, remembering, non-forgetting.

Of mindfulness, the Buddha spoke as follows:

One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness.

One is mindful to abandon wrong resolve & to enter & remain in right resolve: This is one's right mindfulness.

One is mindful to abandon wrong speech & to enter & remain in right speech: This is one's right mindfulness.

One is mindful to abandon wrong action & to enter & remain in right action: This is one's right mindfulness.

One is mindful to abandon wrong livelihood & to enter & remain in right livelihood: This is one's right mindfulness.

Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort & right mindfulness — run & circle around right view, right resolve, right speech, right action & right livelihood.

Maha-cattarisaka Sutta: The Great Forty

Here,we can see how mindfulness is something active. It has the role of a 'supervisor', to 'run & circle' around all aspects of practice. Mindfulness is like an instructor or coach.

widfola wrote: »

...the commentaries explanation of Sariputta's "mistake" can be discarded.

How sad. How sinful. The Buddha said:

187. Bhikkhus, I do not know of any other person who could follow up the teaching proclaimed by the Thus Gone One other than Sàriputta. Bhikkhus, Sàriputta follows up the teaching proclaimed by me.

Ekapuggalavaggo

:smilec:

DhammaDhatu

widfola wrote: »

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.062.than.html

Widfola

Well cited friend. In this sutta, it is reported Rahula did not know what Anapanasati was. The Venerable Rahula was admonished by the Buddha for his 'self-view' and thus sat "setting mindfulness to the fore".

Here, the Venerable maintained wisdom in his mind, after being admonished by the Buddha, the wisdom that "this is not I, this is not mine, this is not myself".

...the Blessed One, early in the morning, put on his robes and, carrying his bowl and outer robe, went into Savatthi for alms. And Ven. Rahula, early in the morning, put on his robes and, carrying his bowl and outer robe, went into Savatthi for alms following right behind the Blessed One.

Then the Blessed One, looking back at Rahula, addressed him: "Rahula, any form whatsoever that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: every form is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.'"

Then the thought occurred to Ven. Rahula, "Who, having been exhorted face-to-face by the Blessed One, would go into the town for alms today?"

So he turned back and sat down at the foot of a tree, folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect & setting mindfulness to the fore.

DhammaDhatu

widfola wrote: »

...awareness...

For me, the term 'awareness' is much too vague.

Mindfulness does mean to 'be aware' of what one is doing, in the sense of being circumspect, vigilant or heedful.

But mindfulness does not mean 'awareness' in the sense of being consciousness of something, as in the sense of knowing or experiencing a sense object.

For example, being aware of the object of meditation is not mindfulness. Here, the object of meditation is simply an object of consciousness, a sense object.

Mindfulness is that supervisory quality looking over the mind, keeping it awake, keeping it free from discursive thought, keeping it in a state of awareness, keeping it free from liking & disliking & judging, keeping it free from craving, keeping it free from attachment, keeping it within the bounds & framework of right view.

Whilst what I am discussing here may appear to be semantics, I disagree. Knowing what mindfulness is shows we are understanding how our mind works. It shows we have clarity in practise.

Kind regards

DD

DhammaDhatu

widfola wrote: »

...awareness...

An excellent example of an incorrect translation is that of the teacher Thich Nhat Hanh and his translation The Sutra on the Full Awareness of Breathing (Anapanasati).

When being aware of the meditation object, the Anapanasati Sutta uses the words "paṭisaṃvedī" (experiencing) and also "ānupassī" (directly seeing).

sabba kāya paṭisaṃvedī = experiencing all bodies

citta saṅkhāra paṭisaṃvedī = experiencing the mind conditioner

Citta paṭisaṃvedī = experiencing the mind

Aniccānupassī = directly seeing impermanence

A simple examination of the Pali and the sutta shows Thich Nhat Hanh and your friends at dhammawheel.com are incorrect in both their translation and understanding of the mechanisms of practise.

DhammaDhatu

widfola wrote: »

Any sati/recollection can be undertaken WITH breathing:

In the Anapanasati Sutta there are the repeated words:

viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ

strives to burn up defile­ments, comprehends readily and is mindful, in order to abandon all liking and disliking toward the world.

ardent, alert & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.

ardent, clearly comprehending (them) and mindful (of them), having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief.

ardent, clearly comprehending and mindful, having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief.

ardent, fully aware and mindful, having put away covetousness and grief for the world.

Ajahn Buddhadasa makes the following comments:

The four comrade dhammas are sati, panna, sampajanna and samadhi. You will recall from the first lecture that while we live within this world the fourcomrade dhammas will enable us to subdue all threats. With them we can get rid of dukkha. Whether inside or outside the monastery, we must use these four comrades to live.

First, we have sati (reflective awareness, mindfulness). When a sense object makes contact, sati is there and brings panna (wisdom) to the experience. Once it arrives, panna transforms into sampajanna (wisdom-in-action), the specific application of wisdom required by the situation. Then, samadhi’s power and strength are added to sampajanna. With them we are able to conquer every kind of object that comes in through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body, and mind.

The four comrade dhammas are unsurpassed guardians. They watch over and protect us just like God. If we practice Anapanasati we will acquire the four comrade dhammas.

Anapanasati

For more detailed analysis, there is Part II. The Use of Dhamma and An Exposition of Right Mindfulness

Kind regards

DD

"What is sammasati? Sati means to bear in mind or bring to mind. Sati is the state of recollecting, the state of remembering, the state of non-fading, the state of non-forgetting. Sati means the sati that is a Spiritual Faculty, the sati that is a Spiritual Power, Sammasati, the Sati that is an Enlightenment Factor, that which is a Path Factor and that which is related to the Path. This is what is called sammasati." [Vbh.105, 286]

...the functioning of sati is often compared to that of a gatekeeper, whose job is to keep his eyes on the people passing in and out, regulating affairs by permitting entrance and egress to those for whom it is proper and forbidding it to those for whom it is not.

DhammaDhatu

fivebells wrote: »

Personally, I've started practicing mindfulness without breathing. Anapanasati just got too easy.

Nice to have those with us with minds so far beyond.

During the rains residence friends, the Blessed One generally dwelt in the concentration by mindfulness with breathing.

If anyone, bhikkhus, speaking rightly could say of anything: "It is a noble dwelling, a divine dwelling, the Tathagata's dwelling", it is of concentration by mindfulness with breathing that one could rightly say this.

SN 54.11

widfola

Hi DD

Thanks for the feedback. The most important thing I do know, is that my meditation has progressed with the simple change of a word. Now I am not trying to fix on a breath, but using it to assist my sati. I am finding it is all about approach. I can be mindful of the "five contemplations"

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.057.than.html

With breathing.

The following sutta also suggests that you can contemplate/sati your way into jhana (probably with the assistance of anapana) :-

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.030.than.html

What do you think?

Regards

Widfola

DhammaDhatu

fivebells wrote: »

Personally, I've started practicing mindfulness without breathing. Anapanasati just got too easy.

"There are, monk, these six quietenings. In him who has attained the first absorption, speech is quietened. Having attained the second absorption, thought-conception and discursive thinking are quietened. Having attained the third absorption, rapture is quietened. Having attained the fourth absorption, inhalation and exhalation is quietened. Having attained the cessation of perception and feeling, perception and feeling are quietened. In a taint-free monk greed is quietened, hatred is quietened, delusion is quietened."

Rahogata Sutta: Alone

fivebells

Eh, I was just mucking around. (Plus, I noticed they censored me when I made the same joke over here, and I thought it would be waste to pass up this second opportunity.) Thanks for the sutra reference.

DhammaDhatu

widfola wrote: »

The following sutta also suggests that you can contemplate/sati your way into jhana (probably with the assistance of anapana) :-

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.030.than.html

What do you think?

dear Widfola

I have never read this sutta before but it demonstrates what I have been saying.

Mindfulness recollects right view and this right mindfulness sets the mind in right concentration.

The breathing in & out are merely the sign (nimitta) of right view, right mindfulness & right concentation.

At one place in the SN, the Buddha described right concentration as the mind with release (relinquishment) as its sole object.

When the mind is established by right mindfulness in right view, it is empty & alert.

It follows, the breathing in & out arise naturally as the object of meditation because, for the empty & alert mind, the breathing in & out is the grossest sense object.

There is no need to direct the mind towards the breathing in & breathing out.

When the mind is established in right mindfulness, the mind & the breathing will by nature (eventually) converge with eachother.

To direct the mind towards the breathing in & breathing out is a gross method; it is lacking in subtlely & fluidity. Being so, it is limited.

To direct the mind towards the breathing in & breathing out is to practise with craving & attachment.

Kind regards

DD

DhammaDhatu

fivebells wrote: »

I made the same joke over here...

Yes, I recall when I was reading the discussion by FirstFreeDays (before their posts were deleted). I found your joke quite appropriate. Quite Zen!

DhammaDhatu

widfola wrote: »

...then the sutta makes sense and the commentaries explanation of Sariputta's "mistake" can be discarded.

BTW. What exactly is Sariputta's "mistake"?

Thanks

widfola

Who is "FirstFreeDays"?

I was about to thank them for their input and the censors descended.

:mad:

DhammaDhatu

widfola wrote: »

Who is "FirstFreeDays"

First Free Days is the words written on top of my credit card statement that I received this month.

:smilec:

Dazzle

widfola wrote: »

Who is "FirstFreeDays"?

I was about to thank them for their input and the censors descended.

:mad:

Yes, I was in the middle of reading that discussion with great interest - when woosh....the wind of change blew in .....and then all was gone before I'd finished




.

widfola

Hi DD

So you are the naughty person in question.

In a lot of the suttas that I have read, the Buddha would always welcome debate with people, however much their views were at odds with his own. It seems unreasonable that censorship of Dhamma dialogue is so widely practised. If people remain calm, then vigorous discussion should be welcomed - not closed down.

It seemed a very valid question I asked in that forum but in no time at all, the dhamma police moved in.

Regards

Widfola