Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Examples: Monday, today, last week, Mar 26, 3/26/04
Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.

New Kadampa Buddhism

edited October 2005 in Buddhism Basics
Please can anyone give info on New Kadampa Buddhism. They are the most local group to me. So it would seem to make sense to drop in a have a chat as they seem really friendly and maybe they could demythologise some of the jargon. I did just that today.
I have to say the whole thing smacked of cult. When I say that I mean the lack of reason or counter arguement. When I asked them about putting practise behind belief with regard to social justice they became completely abstract.
The lad that showed me around seemed like a good and kind person but it seemed life for him only to exists in and around this belief system of New Kadampa Buddhism. He confused me was the collection mixed worship towards different gods. I may be very wrong but for me I believed that there was only one Buddha and he was laying down a way to live not a controlled organisation.
This may seem very unfair but the living conditons of the people in residence seem very poor. I left feeling concerned for their welfare and put off by Buddha babble.

I would very much welcome suggestions on more agnostic, practical belief organistions.

Comments

  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited September 2005
    I don't know if we have any NKT members but I have attended their "meditation classes" and have to say that I was very concerned. Apart from anything else, they appear to be a way of publicising Kelsang Gyatso's books, which are on sale at every session - and are the only ones!

    There is a rather unpleasant aspect of NKT which is, as you say, HH, the amount of 'deity worship', which has led the Dalai Lama, as spiritual leader of all the Tibetan traditions, to issue warnings against this 'lineage'.

    As you say, there is something of the stink of cult about NKT, which is a pity because I think that Geshe Kelsang's aim was to present the Dharma in a practical and 'Western' way.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited September 2005
    hello again, Herman, welcome back, I was wondering where you'd got to.... Hope our posts so far have been helpful & useful to you....
    Nice to see that you are questioning and examining so much. Good for you.... and your 'gut instinct' seems to be working with you and doing you a lot of favours.... Both Elohim and Simon give sound advice.... but always follow your instincts too.
    Stick around, there's plenty more..... :) :type:
  • edited September 2005
    I really do appreciate all your help. It must be tiring to explain the very basics time after time. I am mindful that many of you come from very different back grounds and yet you are showing common a purpose in explaining things without making any assumptions of me.Thank you. I am extremely impressed with much that I have seem on this web site.
    If my path is to continue I believe it might possibly be long one. I start with the big issue surrounding trust in someone you is willing to teach or attempt to enlighten me.You must admit its a big ask.
    You see my back ground is one of a firm commitment to democratic Socialism. For me it's about doing, not just thinking.Trust those that do.
    There are many in and around the Socialism movement that will talk all day and kid themselves that change is just around the corner. It much like the Peoples Judian Front from Monty Pythons "Life of Brian". For me is about social justice and if comprise povides a means to an end, well in most cases, so be it. As you can see it doesn't have to be scientific but it has to be practical.
    To improve oneself is not an opportunity to be missed, but surely isn't it time we look further and got off our knee and said enough is enough to world is in a shitty mess and we can do something.
    So you see I am looking for more than just a mind movement I am looking for the real thing what ever that is, something that inspires. No pressure their then I hear you say.
    I am not prepared to worship fake gods whlie people starve.But I am prepared to search until I exhaust myself to find answers to or should I say a counter balance to self interest, greed and the emptiness that follows.
    All hints or tips welcome...?
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited September 2005
    Keep on keeping on, Herman.... question, question and questiion again...; one book I found very informative, and one which might help you re-evaluate what, why how and whatever, is a book I've mentioned countless tilmes before....
    "The Power of Now" by Eckhart Tolle..... give it a try.... hire it from your local library.... I advised a friend of mine in the UK to do this, and she said it was already out, but her name would be added to the waiting list.... there were six people in front of her....!!
    It's worth the read. :)
  • MagwangMagwang Veteran
    edited September 2005
    That's the only Buddhist center in my town. I visited them once - the book store is in the meditation hall.

    Respect to Kelsang Gyatso...but I'm agnostic, so Tibetan deity thing doesn't appeal to me anyway.

    Probably will return - give them the benefit of the doubt. See if I can help a local sangha, sit with them once in a while.

    :-/
  • edited October 2005
    I began studying Buddhism at a Shambhala center but recently switched over to the local NKT after taking a Meditation class they were giving. I felt they were much friendlier and had a much more open dialogue going on about the practice. The teacher Gen Kelsang Monrub, at least from my perspective appears genuine and knowledgeable. I was so happy to have found a place to learn and practice that would put up with my endless questioning. I had no knowledge of the accusations being made about this group being a cult or a false practice of buddhism because of the split with HHDL or whatever until tonight when I ran across a comment on amazon.com. Now I am absolutely heart broken and confused over the whole matter. From everything I have read on the web, the conflict appears to be political in nature, but what do I know. I have read many books on Buddhism and do not see where the NKT teachings differ so greatly from any of the other schools. So now I am at a mental impass. It seems the very thing I despised about religion in general, the accussations, the backbiting, the claim that ones own sect is the only correct one, appears to be no different in Buddhism. Extremely disappointing to me.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited October 2005
    THis is why I love this on-line Sangha.... there is nobody here who will ever tell you that their way of thinking is better than yours, that what they teach is superior or that whatever they chant is the only thing to chant.... We have so many different belief structures and points of view in here that we all share and benefit from. It is a truly enriching experience. And even if things may get seemingly heated, we defend the right of the person to be heard, providing they don't attempt to tell us that it's the only way to go folks.... share and share alike, but with the Eightfold Path dominant, and with Dignity and Respect.
    You are very welcome here. :)
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited October 2005
    Duane, Welcome!

    I, too, had hoped to find useful teaching in our local NKT meditation group. And to avoid the sectarianism so prevalent in religions, philosophical schools, politics, etc.

    Neither proved to be the case! The meditation teaching was sketchy at best, unless one was prepared to become some sort of member, and the Dharma teaching was worse than primary. The emphasis of the books by "Geshe-la" turned every session into a sales pitch.

    Despite my fondness for Tibetan Buddhism, I take the 'deities' wityh many a pinch of mythic salt, using them as archetypes and focuses for meditation rather than 'persons', so that the whole dispute about this or that deity seems irrelevant to my practice.

    I no longer us the group, despite the fact that the NKT members were friendly - but then I imagine Jim Jones's helpers were too!
  • edited October 2005
    Duane,
    I am new to this site also and I a have to say these guy's on here are great. They put up with me for a start. I can be very bolshie and not very mindful sometimes. I think you will find there is a broad church here.
    From my experience all I can say is I had a gut feeling with these guys NKT. As I have already said they just reminded me of SWP.
    Horses for coarses.
  • edited October 2005
    Millions of Buddhist monks have been killed, imprisoned, tortured, or driven

    into exile by the Communist Chinese since the 1950s in a deliberate, systematic

    destruction of a culture and a religion. The pacifist Buddhist monks are about

    as innocent and noble as victims can be; the Nobel Prize-winning Dalai Lama is

    perceived to be equally wonderful, kind, and heroic. Few are unfamiliar with the

    boy-king's narrow escape in 1959 from the Chinese into India, where he still

    governs in exile and continues to preach nonviolence. He is one of the most

    universally respected religious figures in the second half of the twentieth

    century.

    This peace-loving image of Tibetan Buddhism sometimes may not be matched by

    reality, however. In fact, some observers suspect that internal conflicts --

    called by some a feud- resulted in the recent assassination of Tibetan leaders

    in India by Buddhists holding a different point of view.* Understanding these

    conflicts and how they might have led to assassination requires some history of

    Tibetan Buddhism.

    History behind the Conflict: Gods and Tantra

    A fundamental Buddhist principle is that all phenomena, including people, lack

    an inherent "self." We are possessive, greedy, hateful, angry, worried, and

    frightened because we think we have a self with needs, desires, and rights that

    must be honored and satisfied. Buddhists say we are deluded about this self. Our

    clinging to the idea is the cause of all of our problems and the reason we are

    reincarnated to lives of suffering over and over again. When we stop clinging to

    the notion of self, we can advance spiritually and eventually attain nirvana, an

    extinction of all craving that affords blissful release.

    Such a principle should, it seems, preclude belief in any kind of deity, since

    belief would imply that a deity has independent existence and a self. As

    Buddhism came into contact with indigenous religions, however, it found ways to

    incorporate local pantheons of gods into, and subordinate to, Buddhism. This is

    especially true in Tibet, where the form of Buddhism over which the Dalai Lama

    presides draws heavily upon the customs and beliefs of Tibet's native animistic

    and shamanistic Bon religion.

    The Bon religion divides the world into three realms: Heaven, consisting of gods

    and demigods; Earth, consisting of Humans and Animals; and the Underworld,

    consisting of Hungry Ghosts and Demons. Bon shamans invited possession by these

    spirits in order to access their powers. Buddhism brought to Tibet from north

    India the doctrines of tantricism. Buddhist tantric practices involve the

    development of subtle powers of energy and mind to accelerate spiritual

    development. These practices were as attractive to Bon shamans as they were to

    Buddhists.

    State-sponsored Buddhism began in the seventh century C.E., when warlord and

    Tibetan King Srontsan Gampo married a Nepalese princess, promising her father

    that he would become a Buddhist. He also married a Buddhist Chinese princess.

    When an outbreak of smallpox occurred, the Bon interpreted it as a sign from the

    gods that Buddhism was bad for Tibet and forced the King to expel all Indian

    teachers and many of their Tibetan followers from the country. In the eighth

    century, an attempt was made to reintroduce Buddhism with the aid of

    Shantirakshita, a great Indian teacher. Shantirakshita came and taught at a

    palace on the Red Hill in Lhasa. When lightning struck the palace during a

    violent storm, the Bon again declared the Tibetan gods had been angered and

    demanded the expulsion of Shantirakshita. Shantirakshita later was asked to come

    back but is said to have replied that the forces of evil in Tibet were too

    strong and had to be exorcized. He recommended that Tibet solicit the services

    of a famous tantric monk Padmasabhava, known in Tibet as Lopon Rinpoche (Norbu,

    148-49).

    Lopon Rinpoche traveled throughout Tibet for fifty years, exorcizing demons and,

    it is said, forcing them to work for Tibet, incorporating much of the native

    pantheon of gods and beliefs into a Buddhist framework. Many of the deities were

    brought into the Buddhist fold as different aspects of the same deity. Thus, the

    Buddha or gods may manifest in a variety of forms, in a way roughly similar to

    Christianity's god manifesting as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

    How is this behavior reconciled with the Buddhist doctrine that nothing has an

    inherent self? Since the world as we experience it is a product of our minds,

    under Buddhist theory, the gods and hungry ghosts can be thought of in the same

    way - not having a self, but existing as phenomena of mind. They are therefore

    no less real than anything else we experience; and in the Buddhist framework,

    they are subordinate to Buddha whatever their nature. Tibetan Buddhists to the

    present day pray to gods and utilize oracles, just like the Bon, and believe the

    unseen world is populated with all sorts of powers and forces that must be

    reckoned with, even though they are phenomena of mind without an inherent self.

    In a way, this view could be compared with Christian belief in devils, angels,

    intervention of saints, and god as a Trinity. This is the first fact necessary

    to understand the background of the current conflict.

    The second fact is that the practice of tantricism has been a recurring issue in

    Tibetan Buddhism. As described above, it was tantric monk Padmasabhava who

    exorcized Tibet of its demons and paved the way for the establishment of

    Buddhism. The form of Buddhism that took hold popularly was heavily influenced

    by tantra and the native Tibetan deities. In the eleventh century C.E., another

    Indian teacher, Atisha, came to Tibet and taught Buddhist doctrine free of

    tantric elements, reinterpreting tantra in a symbolic and philosophical manner,

    and advising that only two of the four tantric initiations be utilized. It is

    said by Thugmen Jigma Norbu, a former Tibetan monk and brother of the current

    Dalai Lama, that Atisha tried to strike a balance between Buddhist scripture and

    popular tantric practices. The resulting resistance caused Tibetan Buddhism to

    break into separate schools- the Kadampa, which followed Atisha's views; the

    Kargyupa and Sakyapa, which wanted to retain more of the traditional Tibetan

    deities; and the Nyingmapa, or Old Sect, which did not care at all for Atisha's

    reforms and followed tantric-influenced practices associated with Padmasabhava.

    Norbu says that the Bon of today in Tibet consider themselves closer to the

    Nyingmapa than to any other Buddhist sect.

    In the fifteenth century, the monastic reformer, Tsongkhapa, continued the

    reforms begun by Atisha - establishing the Gelugpa school, founding the

    important monasteries of Ganden, Sera, and Drepung, emphasizing pure Buddhist

    teachings and the practice of virtue-but did not attempt to subvert or reform

    the older Tibetan Buddhist sects, all of whom coexisted with the Gelugpa and the

    native Bon.

    The heads of the Gelugpa school were known as Dalai Lama and were believed each

    to be the reincarnation of his predecessor. Upon the death of a Dalai Lama, a

    search is made among children in Tibet for his reincarnation. Oracles and

    prophecies suggest areas to search and candidates to be tested and screened,

    often with reference to their ability to recognize acquaintances or belongings

    of the previous Dalai Lama. In this way, the head of the Gelugpa school

    reincarnates repeatedly to serve as Dalai Lama. The present Dalai Lama is the

    fourteenth in succession.

    Gelugpa Ascendance and Death of the Great Fifth's Rival

    Keeping the foregoing in mind, we turn our attention to events in

    seventeenth-century Tibet. In 1642 C.E., the Dalai Lama, head of the Gelugpa

    school of Tibetan Buddhism, acquired authority over a politically divided Tibet.

    The "Great Fifth," as he is known in Tibet, was shrewd in his dealings with the

    Chinese, the Mongols, and with his Tibetans. He consolidated power through an

    alliance with Mongol leader Gushri Khan, who defeated the strongest secular

    leader in Tibet, King of Tsang, a member of the Nyingmapa order. At the time the

    Great Fifth gained power there were both secular and sectarian rivalries. In

    addition to various schools of Tibetan Buddhism, the old Bon religion was

    reviving its bid for supremacy in Tibet. Rather than use his power to crush the

    Nyingma sect, which he easily could have done through his alliance with the

    Mongols, the Great Fifth deliberately incorporated Nyingmapa teachings and

    practices into his ecclesiastical court (Norbu, 248-49). Some Gelugpa purists

    objected.

    As the secular and spiritual leader of all of Tibet, a Dalai Lama would have to

    maintain good relations with all sects. Yet, given that the Nyingma sect was

    closer to the tantricism whose excessive influence Gelugpa's founder thought was

    detrimental to Buddhism, allegiance to Nyingma could have been a basis for

    legitimate concern or a rallying point for political opponents of the Great

    Fifth. Furthermore, his attraction to Nyingma may have been more than political

    expediency, as it is said that Padmasabhava, the Indian tantric who had

    exorcized the demons from Tibet, appeared to the Great Fifth in dreams and

    visions (Batchelor, 62).

    In any event, it is alleged that the conflict between the Great Fifth and the

    Gelugpa purists led to the suicide or murder of the Great Fifth's rival, Drakpa

    Gyaltsen. Gyaltsen had been one of the candidates considered for selection as

    the Fifth Dalai Lama, so in a sense this rivalry had existed since childhood.

    One story says that Drakpa Gyaltsen defeated the Dalai Lama in debate and was

    found dead the next day with a ceremonial scarf stuffed down his throat. The

    spirit of Gyaltsen was said to have returned and brought with it calamities upon

    the Tibetan state. After magicians and lamas failed to exorcise the wrathful

    spirit, the leaders of the Gulag sect asked the spirit to become a protector. It

    "agreed." Those who had opposed the Dalai Lama's involvement with the Nyingma

    sect recognized the spirit, called Dorje Shugden, as the reincarnation of

    Gyaltsen (Lopez, 68).

    One of Dorje Shugden's functions is said to be to protect the purity of the

    Gelugpa teachings from pollution by Nyingma doctrines. However, the following

    statement also is attributed to the Fifth Dalai Lama: "The so-called Drakpa

    Gyaltsen pretends to be a sublime being. But since this interfering spirit and

    creature of distorted prayers is harming everything, both dharma and sentient

    beings, do not support, protect or give him shelter, but grind him to dust."

    The practice of propitiating Shugden and regarding him as a manifestation of the

    bodhisattva Manjushri (i.e., a buddha) continues among some Tibetan Buddhist

    monks and laypersons to the present day. For some of these practitioners, Dorje

    Shugden is the primary focus of their practice and, through the thirty-two

    deities of his mandala (different manifestations of the same deity), is said to

    embody various qualities and provide all kinds of help to those who take refuge

    in him. According to information appearing on a pro-Shugden website referenced

    at the end of this article, Dorje Shugden manifests in many different aspects -

    peaceful, wrathful, layperson, monk, even nonhuman. Dorje Shugden also is said

    to have manifested prior to the seventeenth century dispute with the Fifth Dalai

    Lama, incarnating in the person of certain great monks and lamas extending all

    the way back to the time of Buddha. However, Dorje Shugden first made his

    appearance in Tibet's history as the reincarnated spirit of Drakpa Gyaltsen.

    The Dorje Shugden practices have been the subject of controversy in the past. At

    the beginning of this century, the Thirteenth Dalai Lama had to forbid Pabongka

    Rinpoche, the most influential Gelugpa lama of the time, to invoke the deity on

    the grounds that it was destroying Buddhism . The ban was

    ineffective and the practice was passed on to Pabongka's disciples. Stephen

    Batchelor, author of Buddhism without Beliefs (Tricycle/Riverhead), points out

    that the Dorje Shugden dispute has erupted throughout Tibetan history every time

    a politically effective Dalai Lama has held office.

    Dorje Shugden Returns

    The conflict began to resurface this century when, in 1973, a lama published an

    account of various illnesses, tortures, and deaths allegedly inflicted as

    punishment by Dorje upon Gelugpas who practiced Nyingma teachings. This account

    was alleged to have been received orally from Trijan Rinpoche, one of the Dalai

    Lama's tutors and a former disciple of Pabongka, the lama whom the Thirteenth

    Dalai Lama had forbidden to propitiate Dorje Shugden.

    The present Dalai Lama, who himself has engaged in some Nyingma practices,

    condemned the publication and in 1976, upon advice of the Nechung oracle, began

    discouraging the practice of propitiating Dorje - although he himself had, up to

    that point, been in the habit of offering daily prayers to Dorje Shugden. Of the

    six categories of beings in Tibetan Buddhism, the current Dalai Lama's brother,

    Thubten Jigme Norbu, places Shugden in the "hungry ghost" category, a status

    comparable to Western notions of evil spirits that haunt or possess people. By

    1996, the Dalai Lama was quoted as saying: "It has become fairly clear that

    (Shugden) is a spirit of the dark forces." He announced that he would give no

    tantric initiations to those who had not renounced Shugden. It also is alleged

    by the Shugden camp that supporters of the Dalai Lama's position destroyed

    statues of individual Shugden worshipers.

    This is a big deal because some Tibetans have entrusted their lives to Dorje

    through initiation ceremonies, believing him to be a bodhisattva, or

    manifestation of Buddha. Imagine the uproar in the Catholic Church if the pope

    were to declare prayers to Mary a form of Satanworship to have a sense of how

    disturbed some Tibetans might be by these pronouncements. According to Shugden

    supporters, there were protests by Tibetan monks in India following the Dalai

    Lama's statements. In the West, the Dalai Lama was picketed in London in 1996

    and accused of suppressing freedom of religion. A few days later, a statement

    was issued by the Tibetan government-in-exile strictly forbidding departments

    and monasteries under government control from propitiating Shugden. In February

    of 1997, three anti-Shugden Tibetan Buddhist monks, including the Dalai Lama's

    close friend and confidant, seventy-year-old Lobsang Gyatso (the principal of

    the Institute of Buddhist Dialectics), were brutally murdered in Dharamsala,

    India, the Tibetan capital in exile. It is alleged that monks loyal to Dorje

    Shugden did the killing.

    The Murder

    The killing is said to have been ritualistic. Newsweek reported that the three

    members of the Dalai Lama's inner circle were stabbed fifteen to twenty times

    each in a bedroom just a few hundred yards from the Dalai Lama's residence.

    Robbery was eliminated as a motive because cash and gilded Buddhist statues had

    been left at the blood-splattered scene. Robert Thurman, a Buddhist scholar and

    author of Inner Revolution (Riverhead Books, 1998) and an old friend of the

    Dalai Lama's, has been quoted as saying that he believes Shugden activists are

    behind the murders. No one has been arrested and the suspects are believed to be

    in Tibet.

    Shugden organizations deny any involvement; however, a report appearing in the

    Indian press claims that Indian police traced a call the escaped killers made to

    a pro-Shugden organization in New Delhi. Seven months prior to the killing, a

    threatening letter, the full text of which can be viewed on the official web

    site of the Tibetan governmentin-exile, allegedly was sent under the seal of the

    Dorje Shugden Charitable and Religious Society to "...the morally degenerated

    Lobsang Gyatso, who is a disgrace to the Institute of Buddhist Dialectics....

    [We] came to Dharamsala three times. In which nunnery were you hiding then? . .

    . Instead of writing warped compositions, you should come down to Delhi (the

    locale of Shugden sect headquarters) with courage and meet us like the louse

    meets the thumb nails. However, if your guilty conscience does not afford you

    the courage to come down, give us a date and we will come to you. Make your

    decisions" (The Official Web Site of the Tibetan Government-in-exile:

    http://www.tibet.com/). Subsequent to the killing, fourteen persons in the Dalai

    Lama's entourage also claim to have received death threats.

    The Shugden organization denies any involvement in the murders or threats. They

    also claim that the letter quoted above does not constitute a threat and that

    the phrase about lice and thumb nails is a common Tibetan idiom for determining

    the truth or falsity of a matter. On a pro-Shugden website it is alleged that

    threats have been made against Shugden activists by anti-Shugden groups. They

    also suggest that the murders could have been committed by people within the

    Dharamsala compound, alleging reports that evidence was tampered with and that a

    sack filled with several hundred thousand dollars in cash was "missing." The

    detention of various Shugden personnel for questioning and attempts to extradite

    the suspects through Interpol indicate that the police have focused upon Shugden

    activists.

    Buddhist Fundamentalists?

    The Shugden sect is popular with Tibetans obsessed with doctrinal purity. Robert

    Thurman has compared them to the Taliban, Muslim fighters in Afghanistan. The

    press in the West has seized upon the occult, wrathful aspect of Dorje Shugden,

    describing the deity as a sword-wielding god sometimes wearing necklaces of

    human heads. The heads are supposed, however, to be symbols of conquered vices

    and transgressions.

    The deity is said to ride a snow lion, symbolizing the four fearlessnesses of

    Buddha. The mongoose on his arm indicates his power to grant wealth on those who

    rely upon him. He has a third eye in his forehead, symbolizing omniscience, and

    his wrathfulness shows his power to destroy ignorance and obstacles (Dorje

    Shugden Coalition website).

    The Shugden movement is organized around Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, a Gelugpa monk

    who founded The New Kadampa Tradition in 1991 and set himself up as head of it

    in London. (As described earlier, Kadampa was the order founded by

    eleventh-century reformer Atisha.) Kelsang's uncle is the medium for Dorje

    Shugden. Kelsang describes the NKT as "pure Gelugpas," and the organization

    appears to have targeted Westerners for recruitment. The NKT (or one of its

    associated organizations) led demonstrations against the Dalai Lama in London

    and then later in New York. Kelsang is challenging the Dalai Lama's moral

    authority on the international stage.

    Spokespeople for the Dalai Lama say that the tradition of Shugden is notoriously

    sectarian, disruptive of harmony in the Tibetan community, and on many occasions

    during the past 360 years has denigrated other authentic Tibetan traditions. "It

    has been an active force of fundamentalist antagonism, intolerance and fear.

    Shugden advocates taught that any practitioner who engaged in practices from

    other Buddhist traditions would face misfortune or even death" [The Official Web

    Site of the Tibetan Government-in-exile: http://www.tibet.com/). The Dalai Lama

    said on the occasion of his sixtieth birthday that he was in a dangerous period

    in his life. He reportedly declared that Dorje Shugden is a threat to his own

    life and to the cause of Tibet. That he has made statements that Shugden is

    aligned with dark forces and refused to initiate Shugden followers into tantric

    practices suggests that the Dalai Lama fears assassination as well as occult

    harm from the Shugden sect.* Although the he has not said so, his followers

    reportedly believe that, on an occult level, the hungry ghost Dorje Shugden is

    seeking revenge for his own brutal murder back in the seventeenth century (Max,

    1997).

    The NKT present themselves as attempting to exercise religious freedom in the

    face of oppression by the Dalai Lama. People in the West, especially America,

    are likely to be receptive to such claims, whether true or not, because of

    Western values and history that emphasize religious diversity. On the other

    hand, the followers of the Dalai Lama would argue that he has a duty to

    discourage spirit-worshiping practices contrary to the fundamentals of Buddhism.

    In an interview in Tricycle, Kelsang has challenged the Dalai Lama to state

    publicly what evidence he has that Dorje Shugden is an evil spirit who is

    harming Tibetan independence and threatening his life. He argues that what

    Shugden followers choose to believe harms no one else. Kelsang even denies that

    Dorje Shugden harms Nyingma practitioners and calls such beliefs superstitions

    (Donald S. Lopez, Jr., "Two Sides of the Same God," Tricycle: The Buddhist

    Review 7, no. 3 [Spring 1998]: 76). Nevertheless, a text entitled "Praise to

    Dorje-Shugden" (quoted by the lama whose 1973 account of calamities and

    punishments befalling Nyingma practitioners provoked condemnation from the Dalai

    Lama) suggests some animus. "Praise to you, violent god of the Yellow Hat

    teachings, Who reduces to particles of dust Great beings, high officials, and

    ordinary people Who pollute and corrupt the Gelugpa doctrine" [excerpted from

    "Praise to Dorje Shugden," quoted by Stephen Batchelor in "Letting Daylight into

    Magic: The Life and Times of Dorje Shugden," Tricycle: The Buddhist Review 7,

    no. 3 [Spring 1998]: 60).

    The Dalai Lama's people call NKT a "cult," and the British press has described

    it as Britain's biggest, richest, and fastest growing religious sect. Since

    1991, it has grown to over two hundred centers in England and about fifty in

    Australia, Malaysia, Brazil, Mexico, the United States, and elsewhere in Europe.

    NKT's goal is to be the biggest umbrella Buddhist organization in the West.

    There is said to be a lot of pressure for members to give money. According to

    British press reports, supporters are told that donations will "create enormous

    merits" in future lives. Interest-free "loans" from members are also being used

    to fund expansion. There appear to be associated organizations, such as the

    Shugden Supporters Community and the Dorje Shugden Coalition, controlled or

    peopled by NKT members, through which many of the denunciations of the Dalai

    Lama are issued.

    Kelsang has a reputation as a brilliant teacher of Buddhism and had built up a

    following prior to setting up NKT. Sixteen of his books on Buddhism have been

    published in English, two of them bestsellers in England. An article in the

    British press says that Kelsang tells his followers he believes Buddhism in

    Tibet is dead because of the Chinese occupation and that it has already died in

    India. If he is right, that leaves the West as the future of Tibetan Buddhism.

    Is Kelsang personally ambitious? The British press reports that some of his

    former students who are disillusioned with NKT insist that he is an honest,

    well-intentioned person of integrity. Some speculate that his followers may be

    using him, or that he fails to appreciate the geopolitical consequences of some

    of what he says and does.

    Some former followers suggest that those around him create an atmosphere that

    promotes Kelsang as "the Third Buddha," come to establish Buddhism in the West,

    the first and second Buddhas having been respectively Buddha himself and

    Tsongkhapa, founder of the Gelugpa school of Tibetan Buddhism. A story in the

    British press reports that followers are told that Kelsang is all-knowing and

    all-powerful, answers prayers, does not need to sleep, eat, or go to the

    bathroom, and has to put rocks in the pockets of his robe to keep from

    levitating during meditation. Kelsang, in response to such stories, describes

    himself as "nobody special." It is not uncommon for Western devotees of eastern

    gurus to make extraordinary, exaggerated claims with or without a nod and a wink

    from the teacher.

    Communist Chinese-Connection or Exploitation?

    An Indian newspaper published reports that the murderers immediately crossed

    over to Tibet after the murders and were safely escorted to their villages by

    the Chinese army. The Chinese, who destroyed so many temples and killed so many

    monks, reportedly are restoring Shugden temples in occupied Tibet. A report

    allegedly appearing in the Chinese official journal, China's Tibet, no. 6, 1996,

    which can be viewed at the website of the Tibetan government-in-exile,

    repeatedly refers to Dorje Shugden as the holy spirit and guardian of Tibetan

    Buddhism and denounces the Dalai Lama as a religious hypocrite. Whether the

    Chinese Communists are behind the murders or are simply taking advantage of a

    situation to undermine the Dalai Lama is hard to say.

    Shugden activists deny opponents' claims that they receive funds from the

    Chinese government and claim they support an independent Tibet. Nevertheless,

    NKT's apparently systematic campaign against the Dalai Lama is considered by

    some to be an attempt to damage the whole sustainability of the exile community.

    The Dorje Shugden Coalition web site refers to a story, attributed to The Indian

    Express in Chandigarh, reporting allegations that the Tibetan

    government-in-exile hides the known previous records of many Tibetan refugees

    and manipulates facts about Tibetan refugees involved in crimes to conceal their

    guilt. Is the point of including the article to show the murders could likely

    have been committed by one of these "hidden" criminals, or simply to malign the

    Tibetan government-in-exile? Similarly, included in the Shugden Coalition

    website is a quote from an interview with the Dalai Lama which appeared in

    Mother Jones, December 1997, stating that to save a person whose death would

    cause the whole of Tibet to lose hope of keeping its Buddhist way of life, "it

    might be justified for one or 10 enemies to be eliminated." Presumably, this

    quote is to suggest to the web site reader that the Dalai Lama, feeling himself

    endangered, could justify ordering the murder of his enemies or at least is not

    the pacifist we think he is. If one looks up the article and reads the quote in

    context, the Dalai Lama is talking about a hypothetical saving of the last

    person on earth having knowledge of Buddhism - not himself - and asserts that he

    left Tibet in 1959 so that Tibetans would not kill to protect him. Since

    Tibetans in exile are guests of the Indian government, information suggesting

    that they or Tibetan government-in-exile is potentially dangerous or disruptive

    threatens that guest relationship. If the Tibetan exile community were no longer

    welcome in India, Communist China's interests would be well-served, but that

    does not prove that the Shugden Coalition intends that result.

    What's So Bad about Nyingma?

    Since Dorje Shugden is supposed to prevent Nyingma teachings from polluting the

    Gelugpa order, why is Nyingma so "bad"? Nyingma represents the oldest Buddhist

    system in Tibet, tracing its origin back to the Royal Dynastic Period (617-845

    C.E.) and to Padmasabhava, the legendary Indian tantric master who exorcized

    Tibet's demons at the end of the eighth century. Padmasabhava is said to have

    brought "Distant Lineage of the Transmitted Precepts" - the doctrines, rituals,

    and meditative practices transmitted from master to disciple since the eighth

    century - and the "Close Lineage of the Treasures." The latter are supposed to

    be revelations buried by Padmasabhava, either physically in the Tibetan earth or

    psychically in the minds of his reincarnating disciples (Davidson, 102). As

    described previously, many of the major reforms in Tibetan Buddhism, including

    those of the founder of the Gelugpa school, attempted to redact or purify the

    tantric and animistic aspects of early Tibetan Buddhism to make them more

    consistent with the underlying principles of Buddhism. Nyingma remains closer to

    the original, unreformed version of Tibetan Buddhism.

    According to Stephen Batchelor, director of the New Sharpham College in Devon,

    England, and author of Buddhism without Beliefs (Tricycle/ Riverhead), Nyingma

    teaches Dzogchen, the direct and sudden pointing out by a realized teacher of

    the experience of the natural or authentic state of mind beyond conceptions.

    This state of mind is an innate, selfcognizant, self-existing awareness

    underlying both samsara (illusion) and nirvana. The idea of a self-existing

    awareness, of course, raises the thorny question of "self."

    Hindu Vedantists, similar to what is implied by Dzogchen, teach that there is a

    real self, what Westerners might call God, that is selfexisting, though

    everything else, including our separate lives until we attain self-realization,

    is illusory. Buddha broke from Hindu thought by teaching that neither the gods

    nor any phenomena have an inherent self. The Gelugpa purists' view (the purity

    of which Dorje Shugden is bound to protect) considers Dzogchen a delusive

    clinging to a type of self-existence and a backsliding to Hindu ideas that

    Buddhism was supposed to refute. Nyingmas might reply by characterizing Gelugpa

    purists as nihilists. Batchelor says the dispute is not academic hair-splitting

    to those involved but the struggle for truth in which the salvation of sentient

    beings hangs in the balance. Thus, different views on esoteric philosophical

    questions with important, they believe, practical consequences fortify each

    side's position.

    Precedent exists in otherwise heterodoxic Tibetan Buddhism for suppressing wrong

    views regarding the existence of a self. The Fifth Dalai Lama, after

    consolidating his power in the seventeenth century, proscribed teachings of the

    Jonangpa school, which taught that emptiness, an idea important to understanding

    that all phenomena are without a self, implied the existence of a transcendent

    absolute reality (Batchelor, 65). Jonangpa monasteries were taken over by

    Gelugpa monks. If the Great Fifth had done the same to the Nyingmas, perhaps the

    Dorje Shugden schism never would have arisen.

    Why Is Dorje Shugden So Important?

    If Shugden purists object to Nyingma tendencies toward acknowledging a

    self-existing reality, why do they cling so strongly to Dorje Shugden? Does that

    change Buddhism to Shugdenism and make Shugden a self-existing reality and those

    who take refuge in Shugden part of a sectarian cult? As Buddhism syncretized

    with the native Bon religion, an important distinction between Buddhists and Bon

    practitioners was that Buddhists supposedly understood that the gods, although

    real in the sense that anything is real, were just mind, without inherent

    existence. To what degree can one become attached to or take refuge in deity

    protectors without in fact attributing to that deity an inherently existing

    self? Even worse, in the view of the Dalai Lama, would be to take refuge in a

    "hungry ghost."

    How does any of this deity-worshiping, or the factors of emotion, politics, and

    tradition underlying it, really square with the tenets of Buddhism? The two

    sides would give different answers to those questions. Both sides see Dorje

    Shugden as a "real" entity, whether an aspect of the Buddha or a hungry ghost,

    and as real as any one of us - not just a form of worship or technique of

    meditation.

    *See David Van Biema, "Monks vs. Monks; Devotees of a Ferocious Buddhist Deity

    Are Seeking to Put a Dent in the Dalai Lama's Aura of Sainthood," Time, May 11,

    1998, 70(1); The Christian Science Monitor; John Zubrzycki, special to The

    Christian Science Monitor, May 18, 1998. These articles, as well as a series

    appearing in the spring 1998 issue of Tricycle: The Biddhist Review, describe

    what Tricycle calls "Tibet's 'unmentionable' Feud."

    *In a statement appearing on the Tibetan government-in-exile's website, however,

    it is explained that the danger to His Holiness is not that he will be attacked

    by an evil spirit but that the bond between the Dalai Lama and his people will

    be broken.

    Sources

    Batchelor, Stephen. "Letting Daylight into Magic: The Life and Times of Dorje

    Shugden." Tricycle: The Buddhist Review 7, no. 3 (Spring 1998).

    Bunting, Madeleine. "Shadow Boxing on the Path to Nirvana." The Guardian,

    London, July 6, 1996.

    Clifton, Tony. "Did an Obscure Tibetan Sect Murder Three Monks Close to the

    Dalai Lama?" Newsweek, April 28, 1997.

    Dorje Shugden Coalition Website, URL http://www.shugden.com/indxnofr.htm.

    Lopez, Donald S., Jr. "Two Sides of the Same God." Tricycle: The Buddhist Review

    7, no. 3 (Spring 1998).

    Max, Arthur. "Dalai Lama Fighting Ghost in Religious Dispute." Seattle Times,

    August 21, 1997.

    Norbu, Thubten Jigme, and Colin M. Turnbull. Tibet. London: Chatto & Windus,

    1969.

    Davidson, Ronald M. Review of The Nyingma School of Tibetan Buddhism: Its

    Fundamentals and History. Parabola 18, no. 1 (Spring 1993): 102(3).

    Official Website of the Tibetan Government-in-exile, URL http://www.tibet.com/.

    Simms, Laura. "Compassion's Flower: An Interview with Orgyen Kusum Lingpa."

    Parabola 22, no. 4 (Winter 1997): 20(8).

    "Two More Shugden Activists Identified as Murderers." The Tribune, Indian

    Englishlanguage daily, Chandigarh edition, November 29, 1997.

    Van Biema, David. "Monks vs. Monks; Devotees of a Ferocious Buddhist Deity Are

    Seeking to Put a Dent in the Dalai Lama's Aura of Sainthood." Time, May 11,

    1998.

    MIKE WILSON, a member of the Society for Utopian Studies, is a lawyer and

    long-time student of religion and spiritual disciplines.

    Copyright Association for Religion and Intellectual Life Spring 1999

    ©1999 UMI Company; All Rights Reserved. Only fair use, as provided by the United

    States copyright law, is permitted. UMI Company makes no warranty regarding the

    accuracy, completeness or timelines of the Publications or the records they

    contain, or any warranty, express or implied, including any warranty of

    merchantability or fitness for a particular purpose, and shall not be liable for

    damages of any kind or lost profits or other claims related to them or their

    use.

    ----

    The Journal (UK), Jan. 26, 1999
    EXCLUSIVE By Gareth Walsh Chief Reporter

    A BUDDHIST sect at the centre of complaints from concerned families is seeking to strengthen its North powerbase.
    Followers of the New Kadampa Tradition, once linked with allegations of a plot to overthrow the Dalai Lama, already boast a string of UK properties including two country houses, one of them their headquarters and home of their spiritual leader.

    Overseas worshippers of the deity Dorje Shugden have been questioned over the brutal murder and mutilation of one of the Nobel Prize-winning Dalai Lama's closest confidants and two other monks.

    And devotees in the NKT have been accused of putting family relationships under strain as their acolytes follow a fast track into the faith.

    The NKT is now planning to open a new residential centre in Newcastle. In addition to the sect's HQ in a neo-gothic mansion in Ulverston, Cumbria, the NKT has an established residential centre in Milton Street, Darlington, County Durham, and a Georgian mansion near York.

    It already holds teachings in 16 other North-East towns or cities, and plans new sessions in Hexham, Northumberland, and Whitley Bay, North Tyneside.

    Ian Howarth, of the support group the Cult Information Centre, said: "We have certainly had complaints about NKT activities, and we are very concerned about them."

    The centre has been approached by families and friends of some NKT members worried about personality changes among a number of people who join the group putting strain on relationships.

    Concerns have also been expressed about the depth of commitment members make within a relatively short time of contacting the NKT, and about the group's opposition to the Dalai Lama.

    The NKT is believed to be Britain's fastest-growing Buddhist sect with more than 3,000 members, and a publishing business.

    Jim Belither, NKT secretary, says his organisation as a whole is no longer involved in the Dorje Shugden controversy, although he admits individual members may be.

    "Individuals are free to be linked, but as an organisation, we are not involved."
    Of complaints to the Cult Information Centre he said: "Sometimes people can get over-enthusiastic about the NKT, but then that rubs off, and they get back to everyday life. It's true some go over the top - but we try to encourage them to have a sensible long-term view.

    "I do not believe the criticisms are borne out when you look at them properly. We do not encourage the break-up of families. We encourage people to keep up contact with families.

    "We do say we alter minds, because we believe all problems arise from the mind. But that comes from individuals, from their own side, not brainwashing."

    Power Play Plot
    Were monks pawns in power play plot? - As an espionage thriller it would stretch the limits of credibility. But, as Gareth Walsh reports, truth may be stranger than fiction in the story of a North-based sect.

    Centre of attention: Conishead Priory, once a home for Durham miners, is now the base of the New Kadampa Tradition.
    AMID mature woodland, at the end of a driveway running through Cumbrian pasture, nestles Conishead Priory.
    For more than 20 years the former Durham miners' home has played host to an unlikely resident, Tibetan Buddhist monk Geshe Kelsang.

    From the mansion, the New Kadampa Tradition, of which Kelsang is spiritual head, has spread its influence across the UK overseeing the setting up of residential centres for devotees, and is now pouring hundreds of thousands of pounds into overseas groups.

    Among its latest targets is Newcastle, where the NKT hopes to open a permanent centre.
    On a superficial level the charity looks like an increasingly successful fringe religious group playing to the spiritual dissatisfaction with '90s materialist society - though with a few hiccups along the way.

    The NKT's total assets almost doubled from £141,555 in 1993 to £228,663 in 1997. From an income of £367,042 around 65pc went in charitable donations, much to its centres in the UK and overseas.

    In its literature, the NKT asks supporters to give interest-free loans, tax-free deeds of covenant or gifts of more than £250, or to be included in supporters' wills. The purchase of NKT centres is largely facilitated by using residents' rents to cover mortgages.

    The NKT supporters have been offered, and accepted, more than £90,000 in grants from English Heritage to renovate their Cumbria headquarters, although only £15,718 has so far been taken up.

    South Lakeland District Council has previously taken enforcement action following unauthorised work on the grade two-listed priory but says the owners are now complying with regulations.

    On a more profound level however, the NKT may have inadvertently stepped into a Communist plot affecting the lives of millions of Tibetans.

    Despite the tranquillity of the priory, renamed the Manjushri Centre, all has not been well in Buddhaland.
    For not only has Kelsang been at odds with the Nobel Prize-winning Dalai Lama, leader of Tibetans exiled by the invasion of their homeland, he may also have unwittingly played straight into the hands of Chinese agents aiming to sow havoc among the Lama's followers.

    The quarrel between the two holy men broke out over the worship of a centuries-old Tibetan deity Dorje Shugden. The Dalai Lama insists Shugden worship is crass, commercial and damaging. Kelsang says the Lama is trampling human rights by trying to ban an important religious practice.

    Had their dispute been played out in India, seat of Tibet's exile government, it would have made at most a few column inches in the West. It was when NKT supporters - Western Buddhists - took to European streets that the schism made headlines.

    Following protests in May 1997 the Dalai Lama eventually entered the fray and criticised Dorje Shugden worshippers for praying to the deity for success in business.

    Concern about Shugden supporters grew following the bloody murder of the Dalai Lama's close friend, 70-year-old Lobsang Gyatso,and two young monks, a few hundred yards from the Lama's northern Indian home.

    Shugdens in India were questioned about the killings but were not charged.
    The NKT says it has stopped its campaign against the Dalai Lama. But the damage may already have been done in the playing out of a covert political plot featuring unwitting NKT members.

    For since China invaded Tibet more than 40 years ago and began to flood it with a Han Chinese population, the Dalai Lama has developed a positive image for himself in the West, creating a thorn in Beijing's side and an urgent need for the Chinese party PR apparatus to discredit him.

    And in "classified documents" allegedly leaked from a Beijing government meeting in 1993 doing the rounds on the Internet, Chinese officials discuss how best to create schisms among the Dalai Lama's followers as an important means of destabilising him.

    The Tibetan government-in-exile believes the Chinese are using Shugden supporters in order to destabilise the Dalai Lama by exploiting the rift.

    One exile in the UK said: "We know that the Chinese are encouraging Shugden supporters both inside and outside Tibet. But we have no specific proof - particularly in the West - of how they are being funded."

    Yet in Cumbria NKT secretary Jim Belither says: "We feel Dorje Shugden practice is a valid Buddhist practice. There is no harm to it at all. But for reasons which are a little bit obscure the Dalai Lama is against it.

    "I should say we are not in opposition to him in general. The Dalai Lama had effectively banned the practice, then we took up the cause of the people who practise it in India. But it all became very controversial and we have decided to stop our involvement. Most of our people are no longer involved.

    "Tibetan Dorje Shugden practitioners are certainly not sympathetic towards China. They are as much seeking independence for Tibet as any other Tibetan, and we would be totally behind Tibetan independence.

    "If this controversy gives strength to the Chinese, then why did the Dalai Lama open up a rift by banning the practice? Which action gives the Chinese support - his initial action, or the reaction to it?"





    Death threats to Dalai Lama blamed on rival Bhuddist sect

    Sydney Morning Herald, November 15 2002
    by Umarah Jamali
    In the northern Indian town of Dharamsala, where the Tibetan government-in-exile has its headquarters, posters threatening to kill the Dalai Lama have appeared. They say he and his followers in India will face death if they do not leave the country.

    Police suspect a Tibetan cult, Shugden, is behind the threats against the Dalai Lama, who fled to Dharamsala from Tibet in 1959, and have tightened security around him.

    The New Kadampa Tradition (NKT) branch of the Shugdens, established by Kelsang Gyatso in 1991, has its headquarters in Britain. For some years relations between it and the Dalai Lama have been strained.

    The cult worships a 350-year-old wrathful Tibetan deity, Dorje Shugden, often depicted wearing a necklace of 50 severed human heads and having four fangs. With three blood-red eyes he is a sword-wielding warrior figure, riding a snow lion through a sea of boiling blood.

    His followers consider themselves guardians of Tibetan Buddhism, and some have described them as the Taliban of Buddhism because of their extremism.



    Shugdens from the Gelukpa (Yellow Hats) sect do not like the Nyingmapa (Red Hats) sect, and consider it a sin even to talk to Red Hats or touch their religious works. They have branded the Dalai Lama, 67, a traitor to the Yellow Hats for befriending other branches of Buddhism.
    Kelsang Gyatso and his followers in NKT accuse the Dalai Lama of selling out Tibet by promoting its autonomy within China rather than outright independence, of expelling their followers from jobs in Tibetan establishments in India, and of denying them humanitarian aid pouring in from Western countries.

    The Dalai Lama says Shugdens pose a serious threat to Tibetan unity in exile. He has urged Tibetans not to worship Dorje Shugden, saying it fosters religious intolerance and turns Buddhism into a cult of spirit worship.

    Many followers of the Dalai Lama believe that the Shugdens have links with Chinese intelligence, and suggest China is exploiting the controversy to undermine the Dalai Lama's influence and weaken support for Tibet's independence.

    The chairman of the Tibetan parliament, Toma Jugney, said: "It's a deliberate attempt to create differences, not just between Indians and Tibetans, but amongst Tibetans too."

    However, he did not say the cult was behind the death threats.

    In September in Kathmandu, NKT members held a news conference at which they said: "The Dalai Lama and his soldiers in Dharamsala are creating terror in Tibetan society by harassing and persecuting people like us. We cannot take it lying down for long."

    However, an official who handles Tibetan affairs in India's Home Ministry in New Delhi said: "We don't think that there is any Chinese conspiracy behind this death threat against the Dalai Lama.

    "Probably it is fallout from infighting among the exiled Tibetans. However, we have beefed up the security cover around the Tibetan leader."
  • edited October 2005
    I want to make it clear, I am not a NKT member. I have attended a total of 4 classes at their centers, and found their teachings on meditation much more suited to my mentality than what I learned at other centers. So my investment is minimal at this point. It just disappoints me to find such contraversy at a place I felt so comfortable at, and most of the criticism is very unconvincing to me......specifically I keep hearing cult, sect, Jim Jones, but nothing about what in their practices is impure. They were very open and kind with me even when I put some of the basic buddhist beliefs and practices through a mental meat grinder, which tends to be how I work things out in my head. I was also told it was perfectly ok to question everything they told me.

    I guess I have tons more questions now.....
    Didn't HHDL and Geshe Gyatso have the same teacher...[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Trijang Rinpoche[/FONT]?
    Why would HHDL have written the forewards in several of GKG's books if he believed he was incorrect and as a living Buddha, wouldn't he have know this all along? Should I now ignore that which he once endorsed?
    Didn't HHDL engage in Dorje Shugden worship?
    How can "enlightened" beings make such huge mistakes, and why do they need oracles, superstition etc when they supposedly understand the true nature of reality......

    It all smacks of power, money, and politics, which I was naive enough to believe one could overcome with a well intentioned practice.

    I would also like to say for the record, I have never been pressured for money and while they do feature books written by GKG, when I was at Shambhala Int'l, all they did was push books by Sakyong Mipham and Chogyam Trunpa. They offered no books by anyone outside of their tradition.
    Classes at NKT are 35 bucks, at Shambhala 60 bucks.
    I have also never been asked to foresake my family and move into the woods or drink poison, so maybe the use of the term "cult" and references to Jim Jones may be a bit overzealous, especially when you consider you may be harming the psyche of thousands of good hearted, well intentioned people.

    I am fortunate enough living in Atlanta,GA to have several choices of traditions, training, etc...but now I am awash in a sea of doubt....anyone living in ATL have any suggestions.....
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited October 2005
    I really do appreciate all your help. It must be tiring to explain the very basics time after time... snip

    Herman,

    I find that it's not tiring to repeat basics all the time. I'm glad people do. It just provides more food for thought, more information, and more grounding in following the Path.

    Just keep asking...I do.

    -bf
  • edited October 2005
    Thank you..
  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited October 2005
    Let me just point out that the Buddha himself prophesied that in these degenerate times false teachers would abound and it would become very difficult to tell the true teachers of Dharma from the fakers. Certainly all you have to do is look around a little to see the multitude of fake Dharma teachers out there. So it becomes very difficult to tell just what you're walking into when you walk through the door of a new temple or center. That's why the Buddha also cautioned being very careful and taking a lot of time to evaluate a new teacher or tradition rather than just accepting everything they say as truth. In other words, you have to follow your gut instincts, as Herman stated. That's your best guide, though even it isn't always right. That's one reason why lineage is so important because having that lineage behind your teacher/tradition gives you a certain amount of confidence from the start. But it's still always your decision in the end.

    Palzang
  • SileSile Veteran
    edited December 2011
    Buddhism, as a system, is not a human itself, but we experience it in so many ways through contact with other humans. I think many of us set Buddhism up to be a refuge which is free of all human problems; so when we find problems, we feel heartbroken.

    But just take a deep breath, realize that the flaws are human ones, and not necessarily systematic. Finding that a local medical clinic has human problems, for example, shouldn't necessarily cause us to give up on the idea of medicine altogether.

    Personally, I would not choose to participate in an organization that encourages students to read only one teacher's books, and discourages them from reading others. However, if you feel good about your local NKT center, there's no reason you can't try to find out more--just keep your eyes very, very open. If your particular center, against all odds, is shedding some of the problems that dog NKT (taking advantage of students, promoting devotion to only one teacher), there's no reason to throw it out without further research, especially if you like the people.

    I would strongly recommend, however, to any and all people considering NKT that they read the New Kadampa Survivors newsgroup: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/newkadampasurvivors. You will find a lot of discussion about both NKT's good and bad points, and will be better equipped to recognize NKT-specific problems arising in your group (for example, subtle increased pressure to stop reading other teachers' books).

    I'd advise the same thing of people choosing Adventism, for example--it could be for you, but know that it is NOT a hands-off, pressure-free religion; educate yourself on the particulars and make an informed choice.

    The HHDL and Shugden issue is huge and complicated; it cannot be written off as political, as at its root, it is theological in nature. There are various parties attempting to co-opt the theological debate for political reasons, including most notably the Chinese government. Don't believe anyone that tells you there's a "ban" on Shugden worship; there isn't. This whole thing has only to do with one, specific "protector" practice and whether or not it is theologically sound. It does not affect Buddhism as a whole.

    It would be great if you could find one or two more Buddhist groups/centers/temples in your area, and visit them, too--see what feels right. I know it's hard if there's only one nearby.

    Personally, from all I have seen, I would not join NKT. I'm sorry if that offends anyone here, but there are simply too many ruined lives at this point to justify mincing words--I would say the same thing about my former religion (Adventism). I hope your NKT center is an exception; that would be wonderful in many ways.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited December 2011
    @poietic, as this thread is from 2005, I doubt any of the previous posters will comply....
    if appropriate, begin a new one.
This discussion has been closed.