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The sphere of nothingness
Deshy
Veteran
The fourth jhana is supposed to be that the mind attends to the "sphere of nothingness". As Ajhan Brahm once said "from many to duality and from duality to oneness and from oneness to noneness"
The question is, how can the mind be in nothingness and be aware at the same time? Is this state something like a blackout? If so then there won't be any awareness in it...
The question is, how can the mind be in nothingness and be aware at the same time? Is this state something like a blackout? If so then there won't be any awareness in it...
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2) Ajhan jayasaro once talked about Ajhan Chah's experience of samadhi as the mind "entering the sphere of nothingness"
I remember once reading a sutta on this but do not have a reference unfortunately.
Which makes a lot of sense.......
I used to lead a fantastic visualisation exercise for my Qi Gong pupils, involving the TanDien and the Wuji.....
So it is not a total blackout like we have in deep sleep is it?
Comments anyone ?
Personally, I don't think there is such a thing as enlightenment as a terminal state which you can achieve like you've received a diploma, and then go back to sleep. "Strictly speaking, there are no enlightened beings, only enlightened actions."
Well, fivebells I have the idea that enlightenment is a state which when a person gains it he/she knows for sure they are there without doubt. That is what the Buddha meant by "unshakable faith" in his teachings. When someone personally experiences the truth into anicca, dukka and anatta he knows for sure beyond any doubt. Wasn't the Buddha certain that he attained it when he did?
However, AB's book says that it is hard to say. Well I don't know for sure.
Further, AB's book defines enlightenment as a state which someone attains when the mind returns from nothingness. I however doubt this. I specifically do not know how a mind attends to nothingness and then be aware at the same time and even if it does how can it gain wisdom into anicca, dukka and anatta just by arising from that state? That is my question.
AB is not speaking with complete accuracy. It would be better to say "a sense of enlightenment".
Ajahn Jayasaro has articulated the matter with complete accuracy as a 'strong samadhi experience' but a 'breakthrough' and 'life changing experience'.
The state of nothingness is where the mind reaches such a degree of non-conceptuality that it truely feels 'there is nothing'.
This happens because when we think things are 'something' it is due to conceptuality or thought.
The Buddha called the sphere of nothingness an "entry into emptiness" but not emptiness itself, that is, not "superior & unsurpassed emptiness". The Mahayana generally holds emptiness to be the sphere of nothingness, that is, non-conceptuality.
Kind regards
Also, it is always lovely to listen to Ajahn Jayasaro talk. For a while, he disappeared into a cave. Ajahn Jayasaro is a deep disciple of Ajahn Chah and a deep representation of the Forest Tradition. Plus he is very intelligent and virtuous.
There is awareness in the state of nothingness, as Ajahn Jayasaro explained.
The state of nothingness will provide the experience of anatta but not anicca & dukkha.
There will also be the deep experience of the cessation of dukkha.
But it may not permanently uproot the tendencies to greed, hatred & delusion.
Kind regards
It is not confined to the meditation cushion, although that is likely where you first encounter it. It is easy to find once you've found it, but difficult to maintain because our habits of mind immediately draw us back into our conventional "space". This is especially true off the meditation cushion.
It is definitely not "nothingness", but because of the lack of conventional "anchors", it is best described as "nothingness".
It is a paradox, yet not a paradox. It is a state of peace yet it is not passive.
The "Heart Sutra" says it best.
Many thanks DD. You always manage to clear things up for me
I also liked the way Ajahn Jayasaro explained it as a "peak samadhi state" which is really acceptable. Actually AB's book mentions how these experiences give insight into anatta.
His book is actually in contradiction to what Bhikku Buddhadasa says in "mindfulness with breathing" as "Only the first jhana is enough to get into sathipatthana. It is not a necessity to go into all four Rupa-jhanas to gain enlightenment although it helps". That is not what AB says. Unfortunately I couldn't find a sutta reference to this to have a look at what the suttas say.
Deshy,
The sphere of nothingness is the 7th jhana. The suttas generally teach the cultivation of the 4th jhana, which is then used for the final insight meditation.
There are suttas, such as MN 111 and MN 121, which talk about Nibbana via the eight jhanas but that is not the norm.
I am not sure where exactly you are quoting BB from. It could be the following. Here, BB has taught not even the first jhana is necessary: BB is talking about completing the 16 stages of Anapanasati on the level of neighbourhood concentration. This is stream entry level. He is not teaching the next level of Anapanasati on the level of attainment (jhana) concentration.
If the mind does not develop what BB is explaining then it will not advance to what AB is trying to explain.
Whilst I have not read all of AB's book, I really like his instruction on the prelimary stages of practise. But I have heard him lecture on You Tube on the 16 stages of Anapanasati and it is inaccurate.
My recollection of AB's lecture on Anapanasati is he did not proceed past the 2nd satipatthana nor proceed past the 3rd jhana. His explanation of the 3rd tetrad was incorrect. (I cannot recall the 4th).
Kind regards
:smilec:
TURNING TOWARDS
EMPTINESS Aj Sumedho
http://amaravati.org/abm/english/documents/the_way_it_is/15tte.html
Sure sounds like Heart Sutra doesn't it.
I don't have AB's book right now as I gave it to a friend but if I remember right he said something like it is the fouth jhana according to him although it is referred to as the seventh in certain texts. I don't exactly remember what I read
Any references please? Any reference which explains the seven jhanas in detail will be helpful to me
I am quoting this. BB explains here the stage where the mind has a suttle level of disturbance as vitacca viccara which AB explains as the wobble (the first jhana according to him)
Well BB's text that I reffered to which I guess is the same you are referring to gives very little importance to jhana unlike AB.
I don't think so. Buddhadasa is talking about sathipatthana and vipassana when the mind attends to a certain level of samadhi whereas AB goes on to the deepest level of meditation absorption and then practicing the sathipatthana when emerging from those absorption jhana levels. I guess both methods are correct; just different
Please give me the reference...
Many thanks for your time mister
Nice to see someone quoting Ajahn Sumedho, Pegembara.
In general I recommend that people check out the wonderful teachings of the Theravada Thai Forest Tradition. After many years as a Vajrayana practitioner who didn't investigate anything else, they have been like a breath of fresh air to me.:)
Kind regards,
Dazzle
.
Not really. It does not work like that. Jhana is a satipatthana. The first three jhanas are vedanupassana. Approaching jhana using the breathing is kayanupassana. But you are free to hold your opinion.
I have had a look. I cannot find it but it is somewhere, someplace.
DD
Just because it is spoken by AS it does not mean it is the real deal.
It is a beginner's guidance and worthy to follow.
It is very skilful way to teach basic mindfulness & clear comprehension.
Spaciousness is a good way.
Sounds like this too
There is, monks, an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that emancipation from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, emancipation from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned.
Udana 80
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.8.03.than.html
AN 9.36 is a good place to start.
I don't have any fixed opinion about this DD. But the statement that "Jhana is a satipatthana" is new to me. I always thought jhanas are states of samadhi which are required states of mind for the satipatthana practice. But really I don't know for sure
Thanks Jason. I need to have a look at the jhana descriptions more closely
this is a description of the Nibbana element.
it certainly does not sound like what Ajahn Sumedho is talking about, where there are still defilements arising in the mind.
:smilec:
The state of mind at the start of practise is the same throughout the whole practise until the end.
It is established in letting go or abandoning and remains in that state until the final abandoning.
There are not different practises.
All of these things, namely, satipatthana, anapanasati, jhanas, vipassana, etc, are merely sign posts along the way. They are the view rather than the walking.
The walking of the path is letting go & abandoning, as Ajahn Brahm has described in his explanation of getting started.
To see the view, one must first take a seat on the train, bus or airplane.
One cannot practise jhana, one cannot practise vipassana. One can only practise mindfulness by establishing & maintaining the mind in a state of letting go & clear pliant consciousness.
It can mean "dependent on" but here it is not the case because the sutta states the ending of the mental fermentations depends on insight or vipassana.
The ending of the mental fermentations always depends on vipassana.
Kind regards
There's also MN 111, which DD has already mention.