Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
Morality and Buddhism? (sex, drugs, etc.)
What would Buddhism say about actions like sex or taking drugs?
0
Comments
At this stage start a meditation practice and just be mindful ALSO when you are doing drugs and having sex. Already at the beginning you have that longing. At the beginning of the path. You have a chance to stay open to your experiences of the sex and drugs to see them clearly and develope a sensitive response.
Later in the path you try to use sex and drugs not too much that it hurt your awakening. (that is also the sensitive response). On your hangover don't beat self up. That illusory self won't make it with you to nirvana so why disturb yourself additionally? Just make wishes to renounce things in the future that harm the stability of your consciousness and create bad karma.
Sex is allowed for laity, but without violence, manipulation and deceit. [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
Right mind, right actions, etc....
The 8 fold path probably doesn't come till the 3rd step of the path has already occured. When you actually see the wisdom nature to the universes(s) in your meditation. This is when you see that there is no self nature and so anger and desire can no longer find anywhere to grip.
Still when you hit your thumb with a hammer you will attach to a suffering I. God damnit. Pardon my french. This is the 4th meditation phase of the path when your overcoming the subtle residues of habits.
Sex is also natural. Sexual misconduct is not, however.
There are plenty of things that grow naturally that are toxic for the mind and body. If one chooses to smoke or use mushrooms, that is there choice but the fact remains, these substances alter your frame of mind and that would fit into the definition of a drug. In other words, they are drugs because they are substances that are ingested that alter your physiological chemistry
But don't just get lip service to those vows. Make sure they speak to you.
True, but shrooms and marijuana aren't one of them. Also, peanut butter is toxic to some and good for others.
Aspirin and zirtec don't alter the mind, yet they are drugs.
So would that include poisonous mushrooms and poison ivy?
You proved my point here
I didn't define a drug simply as mind altering, if you read my definition, I said it is a substance that alters one's physiological chemistry, that is the broadest definition of a drug. Marijuana and certain mushrooms fit in with this definition.
If you ingested poison ivy for the chemical alterations it would produce, then yes it would be a drug.
Back to the original point, morality is subjective but in my opinion shrooms and weed cloud the mind.
The intoxicants don't refer only to the heavy drugs, or to mushrooms et al, but the precept seems to include even alcohol.
Without sounding dogmatic I agree with you. I look to the Buddha's advice as it is, advice for a happier existence not a hard fast rule.
Let's suppose I do take intoxicants. How will that affect the other people around me? My parents, my kids, the people that look up to me. What about the people that are looking for a form of escapism and that see me doing drugs?
Are mushrooms that innocent if I take in consideration what my usage of them is gonna do to other people?
Your use of mushrooms shouldn't have an effect on anybody but yourself. If others take it negatively, that is because of they're own preconceived notions of what shrooms are. Simply being a Buddhist can have extreme negative impacts on others as well (like a fundamentalist family will be appalled if their child turns Buddhist) , but that doesn't negate Buddhism.
We are all connected. I think it is hard to think of something that affects just myself. :-)
If they suffer because of it, and considering mushrooms are a rather unimportant fact of life, couldn't I just stop using them instead?
Here is a possible negative affect mushrooms can have on others. Let's say I am innocently using them, my roommate is in the kitchen eating a steak. He chokes on the steak and stumbles into my room so seeking help. Me being in a selfish mindset that mushrooms inevitibly induce, I do not realize how to administer help to my roommate or that he even needs my help. He ends up choking to death. Would this not effect and affect him by my use of mushrooms?
That's the great paradox. In Samsara we are separate (even if it is delusion), but fundentally, we are all One.
This is dodging the issue. Should you stop doing something you think is good because others think it's bad? Like my Buddhism analogy. Should a child of a fundamentalist family abondon Buddhism because it negatively impacts his family?
You could also be at the grocery store while your roommate chokes on a steak, and thus not be there to help. Should you stop grocery shopping too?
Or you could also be sleeping while he chokes. Again, your analogy doesn't work.
Just like superman, we cannot be everywhere at once but we can do everything possible to help others. Mushrooms inhibit extra-corporeal experiences and cause a hyper-self centered mindset. This mindset can be a danger to oneself and to others (as I exemplified above). My biggest aversion to such substances, now in my life, is that they make me less aware or delusionally aware of others, plain and simple.
edit>>>I rock climb a lot and a friend was high on marijuana when he was belaying a friend. He got distracted and let the friend fall to the ground. He probably would not have been so distracted if he were sober and that friend wouldn't have broken his legs.
Sometimes, yes.
Honey you don't need an analogy, let's put it in a straight manner: Should a junkie abandon drugs because it negatively impacts his family, the way other people see him, clouds his judgment, wastes his time and money, and becomes a form of escapism? Now this is a question that addresses the issue. :P
Yes, but if you allocate some time for yourself to do shrooms, just like you would to meditate, there should be no different of an effect on others.
The only valid criticism of shrooms that I've seen is that they delude the mind, a huge no-no in Buddhism. However, that isn't proven and some say they can temporarily see things clearer or get a quick glimpse of the fabric of reality. I personally, might be inclined to think they are a delusion, but I would keep an open mind on the matter.
Regarding what you said about the rock climbing incident, that's just an example of misuse of marijuana.
What?! Dude, everybody knows they are hallucinogenic. If you wanna defend them try another line of reasoning. please. x-)
That would be abondoning your ideals though.
Sure, but there must be a distinction between different drugs. It's not all black and white as medicinal drugs and bad drugs. It's wrong to group shrooms with heroine. Shrooms are non-addictive, non-toxic. Shrooms are less toxic than aspirin. So when you stop using medicinal drugs altogether, then we can talk about the negative effects of mushrooms.
Also, there's a difference between a junkie, and someone does a shroom cap once a year.
As for setting time aside to use these substances, that is your own call, I am of the opinion that there is alot of unnecessary stigma especially associated with weed, but I for one have no desire to experience the delusions it creates in my mind.
Ad populum fallacy.
They are classified as such yes, but it's not proven that they invoke delusion. Only that it alters the mind.
Wise comedian, Bill Hicks, came to the realization of some fundamental truths of reality (akin to Buddhist ideas of reality) because of psychadellics.
"Because I want sensation in my eyes," he says.
"Oh? You may have sensation that way, but can you focus on anything past the swelling? Would you rather see?"
If he says that he'd rather see, I might suggest some meditation time rather than mushrooms.
I have done mushrooms and LSD and marijuana in the past. From my observation of those, I can say that for me, the ability to accurately see is tremendously diminished while intoxicated. I will say that there is the equivalent of sensation in the space you may hint toward, but without an understanding of the formlessness that makes viewing the non-conceptual stable. Maybe like jumping into a pool without limbs?
In your rejection of other's offerings to you, it appears that you're intent on defending a view that these substances are a benefit? The choking man analogy seems especially well targeted. Its not about where you are, its about your ability to help what is in front of you. Right now. There to your right!
With warmth,
Matt
Here is Buddha's advice to a lay practitioner. (present day Buddhist teachers will tell you that 'intoxicants' means recreational drugs as well as alcohol)
It's from the Pali Canon - DN 31
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.31.0.ksw0.html
Kind regards,
Dazzle
.
You are basically condemning Native American and African shaman spirituality as just delusion.
Are the Native Americans all delusional because they use Peyote?
Honey, we are buddhists, not shamans. Whatever they do it's fine, but it is not the same path.
I am in no way condeming or saying anything of the kind. I know very little of either of them and if they use intoxicants for their spirituality that is up to them, I don't know what they are trying to achieve. What I said is that I am not interested in the delusions marijuana and mushrooms stimulate in my own mind, after all, that is all I know.
Isn't the correct wording not to take "intoxicants"? If so, mushrooms are non-toxic, and you ought to stop taking aspirin because it is a toxin.
The avoidence of drugs depends on how you define drugs. If you don't consider something to be a drug, then you are not defying any teachings.
I might add that, since becoming a Buddhist, I haven't taken any recreational drugs, but I have done marijuana four times throughout my life and had one tiny shroom cap that had zero affect.
QFT
You offer no definition of what is a drug so until you do, we will have to use the general definition that I provided earlier. Either way, it is just semantics, how I understand what the Buddha was teaching with the 8 fold path, especially with intoxicants, is to avoid things that create delusions and suffering. I will not pretend to know what is good for anyone other than myself but I can share my experiences and these experiences have taught me that marijuana and mushrooms only inhibit the mind from functioning in reality.
If you want to justify your beliefs that certain drugs are ok in accordance to Buddhism due to being pedantic about vocabulary then you justify all you want.
But please don't expect the majority here to agree. The Buddha was clear on intoxicants and their use. You say it depends on how you define drugs - I go by the guidelines released by the authorities. Shrooms fall under that. And I might hazard a guess that you've only had ONE experience with shrooms - a tiny one in your words. But then again I'm only speaking from the experience of my mother having been a drug counsellor, so I probably don't know much. I also abstain from recreational drugs so once again, you would regard me as not knowing much in that regard.
Respectfully,
Raven
'nature' is used to pack people off to yellowstone park. If you get eaten by a bear
I respect your opinion of the definition of what constitutes a drug. I don't agree with it. So I will agree to strongly disagree with you.
Respectfully,
Raven
I think it is a rather weak definition. Cocaine is grown from the Earth and it is just prepared not chemically changed. Sure crytal meth is man made I will even give you herion (although that is grown naturally from the poppy plant). If you smoke marijuana flower buds, are you not manipulating nature. They are not naturally meant to be smoked. So according to your definition marijuana can be justified as a drug.
I think we are getting distracted from the OP. I will leave my initial reaction to your definition as I liked it, but I will have to retire from this conversation for now. Going to go hiking with the dogs.
What do you think constitutes as a drug then? Whatever is the popular belief, the claim made by authority?
If I had one thing to say, is that people who have a common preconceived notion of a harmful substance need not look to marijuana and mushrooms and instead look to what people accept, such as MSG in food, flouride in drinking water, aspartame in diet products, prescription drugs that can severly damage you.
I have extreme distaste for those who reject things merely on notions of taboo and acceptable in society, when in fact, things that are accepted happen to be more harmful than the things they object to. (Not directed at you or anyone in particular, just a general statement.)
Thank you for providing a sound counter argument, I applaud you. I may have to rethink some things over again.
As for aspartame, I make an active effort to avoid ingesting it, I avoid prescription drugs at all costs, I never eat anything with MSG in it. So I try very hard to practise what I (or in this case, you) preach.
As for who your distaste is aimed at, even if it was aimed at me, it would not change my feelings one bit, nor would it adversely affect me. But I appreciate your clarification all the same.
Respectfully,
Raven
Clearly you have demonstrated that you know from experience. But just as a sidenote, someone died because they drank too much water. It just goes to show that things can be good or bad, depending on how you use it.
.
Respectfully,
Raven
In my understanding The buddha advised to practice refraining from actions like sexual misconduct and taking drugs becuase they are disturbing to peace of mind. Also they cloud our ability to see things as they really are as pointed out by Nameless river and amatt. They are not a sin or something wrong but a common misunderstanding that they will lead to happiness. And if you look into your experiences mindfully as Jeffery suggests you may find the happiness and pleasure they bring are unreliable and unsustainable and hard to pin down once you shine some light on the matter.
However beyond the topic of actions it is important to consider ones mental attitude towards sex and drugs. The buddha also taught to consider the effects of attachement/craving, aversion and indifference to any subject.
One reason is these get in the way of our ability to be kind to one another and ourselves.
A practising Buddhist takes refuge in ordinary mind.