Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
do all buddhists believe in rebirth
if yes what are the different realms
0
Comments
That it can be thought of in the metaphorical sense of the arising/falling from moment to moment is at least reasonable. The literal aspect is questionable, and to that the best course of action is to neither believe nor disbelieve unless you develop personal experience, or direct knowledge, of this phenomena. The literal aspect, not using our opinions or the teachings which may be corrupted, can be neither proven nor disproven; in this it becomes a speculative question such as the existence of a God. The Buddha would have discouraged the pursuit of speculation that does not lead to the cessation of suffering.
Most importantly, if we have a "belief" and recognize it as such, we should not build further beliefs on top of it. Having one belief based upon another belief is just being two steps removed from actual wisdom. We further immerse ourselves in a blindness born of our intellect; of over-thinking rather than knowing. We should understand all of the teachings on the conceptual level to the best of our knowledge, practice the path and meditate upon the teachings and how our direct experience of life accords with them; that which can be known will be known with right effort applied.
We have to accept the possibility that there are some things that we simply may not be able to know in this life. The wisdom to say "I don't know", and to actually believe it, is one of our greatest treasures as seekers of the truth. We've become quite arrogant that our intelligence should allow us to put everything in order - to make sense of an existence that doesn't come with a user manual. In this, we fail to recognize that it is our intelligence that got us into this mess in the first place.
Reason, logic and our intelligence are not enough; we are infinitesimally small and insignificant beings in a mind-bogglingly vast universe. There are many things that are simply beyond our ability to comprehend. We are fortunate in having Buddhism to show us the way to end our suffering, but we should not expect to know everything.
Sometimes one may sense there is rebirth, such as when an old habit arises in the mind.
One may feel it is a "re-emergence", "repeat", "re-arising", "recurring" or some other "re".
But for me, the causes, conditions & circumstances that lead to that "old habit" emerging are new.
It is not really "rebirth" but simply "birth". What is called jati.
For me, a new phenomena, a new experience is born in the mind for that moment or time (until it passes).
Following a mental interpretation, human is conscience & reflective; god is bliss, power or compassion; animal is non-reflective & blind emotion driven; hell is suffering & torment; hungry ghost is craving & addiction.
No not all Buddhists believe in rebirth. Others choose to remain neutral about it because its impossible to know either way. Buddha's teachings for the cessation of suffering apply to this lifetime.
Rebirth can be seen as a tool for morality teachings. The different realms represent mental states which we can experience here and now.
.
I don't believe I have a permanent self, I am constantly rearraging physical and metal objects.
I don't believe I am literal reincarnation of the boy who worked in a local stables, in the same way way I don't believe I'll be literally reborn in a hell realm if I do bad things.
You say "litteral" as if there is some literal way in which that which has no parts can be reborn. Lord Buddha does not merely say, "There is no answer to that question." Some questions are only mirages of questions, there is not a real question there.
We cannot understand rebirth.
In the core Buddhist teachings there is only birth and death. That is the birth and death of the self-identification. As far as I know, the Buddha has never explained what happens after we die. He only taught what is relevant to the cessation of suffeirng. He apparently did not study post mortem sciences
As for realms, I believe they address mental states. When you are angry with someone and burning with that anger your mind is born into the realm of hell. That birth is not necessarily a physical birth. It's a mental state and you suffer exactly the same way described as hell in Buddhist texts.
Also I would think that Buddhists would be more likely to have achieved higher levels of education and thus had ample room to exercise their critical thinking skills. I have yet to encounter any idea about the afterlife or any other life that, through the lens of some very basic logic, does not cause a tremendous amount of cognitive dissonance.
There are six different realms discussed in Buddhist teachings: human, animal, preta, hell, and 2 god realms. Of the hell realms there are 13 discussed.
Or the realms can be reduced to the form and formless realms.
You think it would be appropriate if only people who believed in rebirth responded to this Thread? Incidentally, a variety of opinions have been voiced in this Thread (the very first which happened to claim all Buddhists believe in rebirth, and has since disappeared?
Poor insight imo. But.. lulz for good measure. :wtf:
If rebirth is untrue then potential lives, ones that don't even make it beyond the womb, are in themselves at the very least non-exitant, and at the most 'sentient'. to then compare this life with singular cell organisms, then the spectrum of non-existence become even wider.
The potential and spectrum in terms of actual awareness is absolutely amazing.
Insight is the direct experience of the true nature of things that ends suffering.
So has our mind ended its suffering yet?
Or is our mind still spinning & stuck in the various realms?
This is what the Latinos call a non-sequitur.
Believing in rebirth doesn't work because it denies the inalienable dignity and existence of multicellular organisms, not to mention the implications within the process of meiosis. The empire state building has always at the least been an empty spot of ground, and at the most been a completed building. See, anyone can put random words together to compose a paragraph that doesn't make any sense.
Can I ask a question? Why rebirth? I mean, what good does believing in past and future lives do for you?
I can put words together AND make sense.
If I do not understand it, then it may be because I have yet to hear of a definition which seemed worthy of being fully understood. It all just seems like muddled nonsense. If you have a coherent idea of rebirth then by all means, for the good of everyone here, share it.
Rqther than try to put it into so many words, I would urge and request you read these words instead. he says it so much better than I can.
The closest he comes to making an argument in this essay is stating that our inborn thirst for justice(rebirth being the delivery system of said justice) means that there must therefor be some ultimate eternal justice built into the foundations of the universe.
I have an inborn thirst for sex and food. This does not mean that some eternal form of sex or food exist in the foundations of the universe, this means that, in the history of our species, those who attained food and sex survived while those who did not died off, thus those traits were passed on. In the same way, people who seek to make alliances and to get along with their neighbors survived while the lone wolfs of the world died off, thus something deep inside of us, something biological even, is disgusted at the idea of no ultimate justice.
But not everyone desires justice. There are sociopaths who have no concept of empathy or compassion. The science is still being worked out, but I believe that they were born that way. Sure epigenetics is showing us that inborn traits can be activated or left dormant by our environment, but ultimately I believe that sociopathy is a neurological disorder. Empathy is a result of a neurological homeostasis. It has nothing to do with the foundations of the universe.
This is philosophy 101 stuff. There is a reason that philosophers are the most likely of any profession to be atheists/not adhere to a supernatural worldview.
Also this man, in describing rebirth, describes exactly what I always understood reincarnation to be: A transmigration of some sort of individual soul from one life to the next. This is really inconsistent with so many of the wonderful tenants of Buddhism.
Terror Management Theory(TMT), the psychological and anthropological study of how humans deal with the existential anxiety of being aware of our inevitable death, helps to explain a literal rebirth better than anything else. It is complicated, but one of the most interesting studies that have been done shows that the more people become aware of or are exposed to mortality, the more they cling to whatever world view or institution with which they have most closely attached themselves. We seek to become one with an eternal institution because at a gut reptilian level we long to be eternal. Some seek to live on through their children, some through their art, some through their work, and others through supernatural ideas of after/past/future lives.
It is something I've thought a lot about. Can't really unthink it now..
One thing I will say is that I find it cathartic to contribute. I hope that answers your question.
Actually "longing to be eternal" doesn't apply if you understand that craving (for existence, among other things) leads to suffering. In Buddhism the highest goal is to END rebirth because, having been born, there is suffering. Thus, ending rebirth is ending suffering. It is delusion that keeps us being reborn (and wanting to be reborn) because we haven't yet seen the dangers of birth.
With Metta,
Guy
It would be nice to believe that this life is the only one, wouldn't it? It sure would make things much simpler for us; no Four Noble Truths, no need for the Noble Eightfold Path, no need for Awakening.
With Metta,
Guy
1) If there is some form of continuity after death then the practice done here in this lifetime will help you in your next life. That's the moral side of it.
2) If not, still the practice done in this life will help you in this life.
Being free from suffering is not a matter of next life and the lives beyond. It is a problem which is relevant here and now in this lifetime. It is irrational to state that if there is no rebirth then my practice here is useless. We don't practice as Buddhists to go to heaven or to go to a better place after death. If you do, then you are wasting your chance of ever knowing the Buddha Dhamma.
Well said, Deshy ! I totally agree.:)
.
Ohh nos, Bhikku Bodhi. :hair: Run for your life :hiding:
We have teachings on how to transfer ones consciousness at the time of dying, and we have teachings on the bardos, the intermediate states between birth and death.
There is a rich tradition of including rebirth in the scheme of things. Of course, if you haven't heard these teachings they can easily be discounted.
What is more important is each moment now and are our hearts/minds open or closed?
what does it matter how many do or don't? It's your path.
In any event I would suggest this essay along with many of his others on this website: http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books7/Buddhadasa_Bhikkhu_Anatta_and_Rebirth.pdf
Without direct realization of the nature of mind and emptiness questions about teachings on the bardos and dying/rebirth processes naturally arise.
Even in the cases of conscious rebirth that we meet (the great bodhisattvas and tulkus in our traditions) it is their qualities of ease in training in meditation and seemingly quick results arising (the fruit of meditation) that we recognize and pay homage to.
Ditto
This reminds me of when my Jazz history instructor taught us about the great blues guitarist Robert Johnson. He told us that either Johnson really did sell his soul to Satan at the crossroads, or he just went away and practiced for a while and people were impressed with his progress. As my good friend Occam's Razor says, The simplest solution is usually the correct one.
Yeah thats true. Its in our nature to seek community with familiar minds. I feel that I have found community with teachers of mindfulness and Buddhist ethics, but the second someone mentions rebirth my mind jumps out of the nearest window. I guess that I have just had enough religion for several lifetimes (thats a figure of speech people) and don't need anymore...hhhmm.
I feel like science, and just looking about the world around me, tells me that my self is a temporary construct and is, in all reality, just stardust as is everything else. Buddhism just has some very good comments on an obvious reality.
BTW I do belief in rebirth.
I'm not sure that quote by Ven. Hsuan Hua would be an appropriate response to the rebirth question, although it did have its relevance to the statement regarding Bodhisattava's. Still, though, Attachment (Pali: Upadana, clinging) cannot be eliminated by directly focusing on the process of attachment, rather by eliminating the factors that condition attachment.
Being a Monk of the Theravada tradition of Buddhism, my responses are appropriate of such.
The elimination of Clinging through the elimination of its immediate cause does not, in itself lead to enlightenment, nor results in the enlightenment factor. It is the utter removal, the complete doing away with Ignorance which will result in an enlightenment factor. Why?
Ignorance conditions volition (mental volition, action, sankhara). This is the same Sankhara that is conditioned by perception in the First Noble Truth. Volition conditions (->) Consciousness. Consciousness->Name and Form. Name and Form->Six Base [Sense]. Six Base->Contact. Contact->Feelings. Feelings->Craving (Pali: Tanha, Thirst). Craving->Clinging. Clinging->Becoming. Becoming->Birth. Birth->Death. Where I use the symbol -> to represent "conditions".
So in order for the Venerables statement to be valid, one would have to eliminate the factors which condition Clinging, namely Craving. In order for one to eliminate the Craving, one would have to eliminate that which conditions Craving, namely Feelings ... In order for one to eliminate Action, one would have to eliminate that which conditions Action, namely Ignorance. For the Bodhisattava, the process of Action is used (according to Mahayana teaching) Skillfully, hence the terminology Skillful Means.
And this brings to bear the entire purpose of the Thread, "Do all Buddhists believe in rebirth?"
"Rebirth" as a word used to identify a process whereby one is born again, and again, and again is probably the most unskillful means possible used to identify the process of Dependent Origination.
If one were to understand this process, one would see that one is not RE-born, rather that one is BORN ANEW. That each process that conditions Birth, is not the same process, but a new process, a new set of conditions bringing about a new Birth each time. The conditioned Becoming is not a RE-Becoming, but a NEW Becoming each time. The conditioned Clinging is not a RE-Clinging, but a NEW Clinging. The conditioned Craving is not a RE-Craving, but a NEW Craving. The conditioned Feelings are not RE-Feeling, but a NEW Feeling ... The conditioned Action is not a RE-Action, but rather a NEW Action resulting from Ignorance.
One can literally determine their Birth based on the conditions necessary to bring about Birth. They can determine species, gender, color of hair, even the specific realm they choose to exist in by creating the necessary Action to condition the processes necessary for conditioning Birth. This is both how a Bodhisattava persists in the rounds of Samsara, and how a Buddha puts an end to the rounds of Samsara. A Bodhisattava continues action motivated out of Greed, Ill-Will and Delusion, where a Buddha's actions are no longer motivated out of Greed, Ill-Will or Delusion.
It's not that I disbelive in rebirth, it is rather that I do not agree on the terminology that describes the continual, or continuation of the Birth process. The Birth process is nothing more than a continuation of the conditions necessary for Birth to occur, arise, emerge. This continuation process begins with Ignorance.
Because of Ignorance we act, i.e., Ignorance conditions Volition ... Becoming conditions Birth ...
If I were to break down each particular process into individual moments, I'm fairly certain that I can ascertain several thousand moments per second that this process is occurring. Although I have no definitive proof that this is an accurate assumption because the Buddha did not elaborate nor divulge this information. Rather I am basing this on the information read from a book called "The Physics of Consciousness: The Quantum Mind and the Meaning of Life" whereby the author breaks down into data-bits per second the number of bits of information we are in contact with (30,000,000+/-) and the number of bits we actually become aware (conscious) of (2,000+/-).
I'm not even sure that mentioning that book, nor the statements used in that book are valid for this point, but I find it worth noting from a Physics point of view.
When it comes to the Birth process, all living beings are in complete control of the kind of Birth they take once the conditioning of Death has taken place. Some may like to think they have no control over this process, but that is part of the Ignorance they are continually perpetuating. Ignorance conditions Action. ALL Actions have consequences. And our Actions are Motivated based on Pleasure (motivated out of greed), Displeasure (motivated out of ill-will), and Ignorance (motivated out of delusion, stupidity, neither-greed-nor-ill-will). We also Act as a result of the consequence of a previous action. That action has a consequence, and we act as a result of that consequence. That action also has a consequence, and we act as a result of that consequence ... ad-infinitum ...
It is through the continual, non-stop action that we perpetuate Birth, and since Death is conditioned by Birth, then we are non-stop perpetuating Death. A New Death, a new birth, a new becoming, a new clinging, a new craving, new feelings, new contact, new six-base, new name-and-form, new consciousness, new actions conditioned by Ignorance.
RE-birth indicates that something of the old is moving forward to be born again. What is moving forward are the results of actions, and it's not the results that condition Birth, it's the continual Action itself that conditions Birth, in that continual actions condition consciousness, continual consciousness conditions name-and-form ... continual clinging conditions becoming, continual becoming conditions birth.
In his teaching of Dependent Origination, the Buddha did not say becoming conditions RE-birth.
Yes, he did teach that there is a continuation of the Birth process, but only as a conditioned response ... to Ignorance. Not as a continuation of a Mind, Self, Soul or Spirit. Mind, like self is also conditioned. "According to the Abhidhamma, mind OCCURS in a continuous stream that consists of an unbroken succession of discrete cognitive events called cittas. A citta is a complex unit comprising consciousness itself, i.e., the basic awareness of an object, and a group of mental factors called cetasikas that have a more specialised task in the action of cognition." From Dying to Live: The Role of Kamma in Dying and Rebirth, Some Basic Principles of Abhidhamma, Mental Phenomena - by Aggacitta, Bhikkhu, ISBN: 983-9382-24-1. This book can be downloaded in PDF format from the following address: http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/dietolive.pdf
[HTML][/HTML]
It is good to see another Bhikkhu on this forum. Thanks for joining us!
With Metta,
Guy