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Imperminance and emptyness depressing?
Hello All.
Ok I seem to be coming up against some walls and was wondering if i could get some advice.
Recently I have been having real realisations about the imperminance of everything - life, relationships, topics, events, problems, happiness - everything. I personally am finding this very useful because if something comes up that i have an aversion to (in this instance its DIY) i just focus on the fact that in 6 hours it will all be over gone and done, and it really helps me feel better about doing it. Also relatioship issues i am having i remember are so imperinant and will vanish very soon, as well as relationships including lovers and friendship.
The thing is, when i try and convey this concept to my non-buddhist friends and husband, they say i am depressed, as it seems i have cut myself off from everything as i am unattacted to most things because i know they are empty and imperminant. I have some friends saying the lovely phrase 'I believe love is forever' and i ask them 'well what is forever?
Its so odd - I just see all relationships and everything as temporary. I see life like a river in autumn - We sit by the river and watch both shrivelled brown leaves and gorgeous red leaves float by, stay in our line of vision for a few seconds, and then are gone never to be seen or experienced again.
I would really appreciate it if anyone could let me know if they have experienced this realisation, because although it is making me feel so much more peaceful about all the things which are going on in my life, i am a little worried that i may be conveying it wrong.
Thanks guys xxx
Ok I seem to be coming up against some walls and was wondering if i could get some advice.
Recently I have been having real realisations about the imperminance of everything - life, relationships, topics, events, problems, happiness - everything. I personally am finding this very useful because if something comes up that i have an aversion to (in this instance its DIY) i just focus on the fact that in 6 hours it will all be over gone and done, and it really helps me feel better about doing it. Also relatioship issues i am having i remember are so imperinant and will vanish very soon, as well as relationships including lovers and friendship.
The thing is, when i try and convey this concept to my non-buddhist friends and husband, they say i am depressed, as it seems i have cut myself off from everything as i am unattacted to most things because i know they are empty and imperminant. I have some friends saying the lovely phrase 'I believe love is forever' and i ask them 'well what is forever?
Its so odd - I just see all relationships and everything as temporary. I see life like a river in autumn - We sit by the river and watch both shrivelled brown leaves and gorgeous red leaves float by, stay in our line of vision for a few seconds, and then are gone never to be seen or experienced again.
I would really appreciate it if anyone could let me know if they have experienced this realisation, because although it is making me feel so much more peaceful about all the things which are going on in my life, i am a little worried that i may be conveying it wrong.
Thanks guys xxx
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Comments
I haven't experienced any significant loss in my life really. I think its more an aversion to suffering I have. When i think of loosing my husband (love) I think i would be very sad but know its just the way things are - things come and things go. Same as loosing friends (i have recently lost my best friend due to a sexual misunderstanding) - I felt sad for a while but just accepted it and realised that soon enough things will change again and I will have new friends, or I will make up with her.
I am not at the point where i will not have relationhsips or experiences because i know them to be empty and inperminant, I just know that it is pointless believing they will last forever because then you are just opening yourself up to constant dissapointment when they inevitably end.
I think I am being realistic. What do you think? xxx
In my experience it causes too much trouble and unless someone else really shares your interest at heart or has a similar concern, then the gifts you or I purport to share are unwelcome.
I don't expect anyone to understand or appreciate what I say anymore, even those closest to me. Often I try to keep a lid on it- it is simply my burden, even when I'm really, really certain of something no-one needs to hear it. That's up to them. It does take a certain sensitivity to know when to say something, that speaks to someone that wants to hear something. Biased yes!
If they happen to share the same burden as you, then maybe the right channels are open to facilitate some sort of constructive discussion.
If they appear curious as to why, try a metaphor that seems appropriate like a blooming flower? Approaching directly might only confuse them as to the true feelings. Impermanence seems to relate to apathy in the minds of a lot of westerners.
With warmth,
Matt
That isn't what your family and friends are concerned about. They're aware, just as you are, that everything eventually ends. This is where their concern comes from:
Before attaining Nibbana, the Buddha lived for a time as an ascetic - he saw the flaws of that lifestyle and left it behind for the Middle Way. You said:
So... it's a shame to miss out on those ever-changing, never-to-be-experienced-again moments out of fear of them not lasting forever. The Buddha taught the end of clinging, not the end of experience itself.
I think there is a fine line to knowing that things are inherently empty and not being attached or clinging to your emotional states (realizing that these emotional states are also impermenant) and realizing that things are inherently impermenant and thus becoming detached, cold or sterile. Your not a stone Buddha. For me the former is the ideal, to have the wisdom to know that all are dependent arisings, that all phenomena are fundamentally empty and without self-It is the use of this wisdom to know on a basic level that not one thing will come my way again in the same way and not to waste it. It also again takes you out of the center of things, by not clinging to your own emotional states and ideals you are much more open to experience and identify with other's joy and pain, which you should do. Looking at a negative and then using emptiness to drive it away, is just that driving it away. You are making this and that, me and this situation. You are making two. The reality is that this situation is your life, be it good or bad. Your job is to experience your life and to be with it. You make bad or good. The wisdom of impermence and emptiness tells you to experience life, when someone sad feel sad, when someone has joy feel joy, but don't hold it, don't cling to it, don't let it drive or control you. All my best to you.
Yours in the Dharma,
Todd
The losses which inevitably follow relationships and so on are an example of the type of challenges Mara posed to the Buddha. Yes, they are inevitable. The central question, though, is how are you relating to those challenges. Distancing one's self from an experience because you know it's ephemeral and going to lead to pain is fundamentally a defensive posture, and not where the practice leads.
Just as ready as you are to release them, and to let them go 'when the time comes', thus must you be equally willing to hold them close to you, wisely and skilfully, and treat them as the treasures they are, that have come to you as a blessing.....
Good point! All of these challenges and emotions are part of the experience, part of Samsara.
One of the many profound paradoxes of Buddhism.
when you say 'impermanent of everything' do you mean 'anicca' in Lord Buddha's Teaching?
if so,
ponder on
'whatever we like we can not have forever'
and then
'actually not even for two consecutive moments'
I have found that these illusions are different for everyone. Some are attached to sex, some to drugs, some to love, some to work, some to money, and on and on it goes. I am glad that you have come to the realization that all phenomena is impermanent. Maybe keeping that understanding to yourself when around people who have not experienced this realization would be for the best. I personally quite agree with you, that knowing all things are impermanent brings relief of much of our suffering, it is "right view".
My opinion is you are not conveying it wrong.
However, what may be wrong is the conveying.
I trust you wish to be open & share with your husand & friends but often conveying Buddhism to others is not a wise thing to do.
Kind regards
Nothing that we do in this life for ourselves out of greed, hatred and delusion carries forth. That which of us lives on are the good deeds that radiate outward from us, affecting change for others and into the future. If we live for the well-being and benefit of others, we never truly die.
It doesn't matter if history remembers our names; it only matters if we have a good affect on the future-state of the universe. You need not even reach Nirvana if that is not your goal; the lay Buddhist who lives a life of good karma lives a life well-led.
Emptiness = infinite posibilities and nothing specific. Nothing better than the other.
The truth is beautiful not depressing.
Hi Emma,
The path that we walk goes against the flow. That was why the Buddha was initially reluctant to teach as only a relative few would truly understand the Dhamma.
IT MAY BE that others are reacting to the "jarring nature" of the concepts of Buddhism. If this is the case, keep it to yourself. Everyone finds the path that is right for them in this point in time ... do not interfere with their paths. Beware the danger of trying to teach others ... it increases our attachment to our belief that we are "right", to our sense of "specialness". Teachers are made when (1) the teacher assigns the student to teaching, or (2) people ASK first. Therefore, do not answer what people do not ask.
IT MAY BE that others feel you are becoming depressed. You need to look at yourself and make sure that your understanding of emptiness and impermanence is not a "smoke screen" for being depressed. There are many symptoms of depression, but there must be either (1) a depressed mood OR (2) loss of interest in things one was previously interested in. Note that neither of these symptoms are consistent with a true understanding of emptiness and impermanence.
Some years back I went on Buddhist pilgrimage to Nepal and India. I'd never been in a third world country before and I was shocked by the poverty and suffering. I started to become depressed. My lama said that was because I didn't have a deep enough appreciation of emptiness.
Why would impermanence and emptiness make anything unattractive?
It seems you are heading into Nihilism somewhat. Do a search on that on the forum and then some reading. Then get back to us with how you are going.
Lots of good responses 2 your post.
Here's something I have been reading lately:
Things and conditions can give you pleasure, but they will also give you pain. Things and conditions can give you pleasure, but they cannot give you joy. Nothing can give you joy, joy is uncaused and arises from within as the joy of being. It is an essential part of the inner state of peace, the state that has been called the peace of God. It is your natural state. Not something you need to work hard for and struggle to attain. Many people never realize that there can be no salvation in anything that they do, possess, or attain. Those who do realize it, often become world weary and depressed...when you reach this point, you are one step away from despair, and one step away from enlightenment...I have learned to offer no resistance to what is, I have learned to allow the present moment to be, and to accept the impermanent nature of all things and conditions. Thus have I found peace.
It comes from a book called "The Power of Now" by Eckhart Tolle. I highly recommend it even though it's not exactly what you'd call a Buddhist book per se.
Best of luck.
Namaste
Tell me, what was Buddha's purpose in teaching about impermanence for example?
In reply to Dhamma:
What would Buddha say about the following situation?
A Buddhist finds a potential mate who is also a Buddhist and experiences a firm conviction that the sum of their lives together is greater than the parts and that Dharma is advanced more for each of them and their immediates in their being together than being apart. Then the mate dies. The original person then feels sad at the loss of the depth of Dharma that the relationship invoked.
You are a better Buddhist scholar than I and my question is genuine and not meant to be contentious.
What you are calling 'Dharma' here sounds like the level of morality. It sounds like filial love.
That is probably why you did not answer my questions.
I was referring to supramundane dharma rather than moral (mundane) dharma.
What you are calling 'Dharma' sounds like people going to church and have a good time socially.
They are one, engaging with eachother, dwelling in the love of Christ and eachother.
This kind of 'social support' is a form of dharma but it is not supramundane dharma.
[The Indian word dharma in it root meaning is 'that which supports'].
If people become dependent on mundane dharma they certainly will not penetrate a higher dharma.
It is therefore most useful & advantageous for them to develop beliefs in rebirth so they believe they will be reborn together in another life.
Or they can develop beliefs they will be reborn with God the Father, the Virgin Mother, with The Son and with the Holy Family in heaven when they die.
This kind of aspiration is ordinary and normal.
For example, in the Samajivina Sutta, the following occurred: This said, the original questions in this thread are about supramundane dharma.
:buck:
He could also say:
Interestingly, the Buddha provided the first set of advice to Nakulapita (Nakula's father). But then, when Nakulapita was aged and probably more mature in his Dharma, the Buddha and the Venerable Sariputta provided the following the following advice to him: This is my 'scholarly' answer to your sensual, filial & mundane questions.
It follows, the Buddha would reply to a supramundane question with a supramundane answer.
The Buddha would certainly have not said: "It seems you are heading into Nihilism somewhat".
This answer is both discordant with the context & questioner and discordant with the meaning of the term "nihilism" as the Buddha used it.
To end, the answer you gave is unconnected with the Buddha's teachings and merely something you read in book or heard in a lecture about teachings developed after the Buddha.
Best wishes
:smilec:
In the OP's post I gained a sense that she was distressed by the ephemerality of things, especially relationships. (I may be wrong in this but it was what I perceived behind her words). Specifically, that because nothing lasts, it does not matter. This is my understanding of nihilism and it is different from impermanence which is: nothing has an ultimate meaning and nothing lasts forever - but not that, nothing matters at all. I am happy to concede my understandings are very lay and from derivative sources and not the scriptures. I would be very interested in your learned view of what the Buddha did teach about Nilhilism.
With thanks.
My advice would be to meditate on loving-kindness. If you develop strong compassion, giving greatly of yourself, your relationships will be very rewarding and meaningful. This form of love also does not necessitate desire.
Also note that if you believe fully in the metaphysical portion of buddhism, your actions still reverberate through all eternity. Your thoughts and actions affect your karma, as well as the karma of those around you. By acting with compassion, you may inspire compassion in those around you, thus decreasing their greed and hatred, which will improve both your karmas, perhaps setting them on the path to liberation in this life or a future life.
I would say our sentiment is the same.
Generally, when Buddhists use the term 'nihilism', they mean believing there is no life after death.
Clearly, I misunderstood your intention & point.