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Loss of Enlightenment
comicallyinsane
Veteran
Is there any stories of someone who has reached enlightenment and then gave it up?
0
Comments
If you've reached Enlightenment, and then 'come out of it', then it can't have been true enlightenment.... by it's very definition, it's a non-reversible state.... it's the end of all delusion and suffering.... you can't "un-learn" something once you've learned it.
2 + 2 = 4 is a simple but undeniable equation. Now try un-learning it......
Sorry if you disagree, but that is what the Buddha taught. Paticca-samuppada is common to all traditions of Buddhism.
(Birth)
"'From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. If there were no becoming at all, in any way, of anything anywhere — i.e., sensual becoming, form becoming, or formless becoming — in the utter absence of becoming, from the cessation of becoming, would birth be discerned?"
"No, lord."
"Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for birth, i.e., becoming.
~ From the Maha-nidana Sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn-15-tb0.html
The statement with which I disagree is this:
I was simply pointing out that enlightened beings do choose to be born and, as a consequence, to experience dukkha and die. It is this heroic decision that is at the heart of the Boddhisatva Vows: choosing to become entangled once more, and for the benefit of all beings, in the web of dependent co-arising.
I would not for one minute try to suggest that the Buddha did not teach the dependent nature of phenomena. Without this teaching, we could never come to understand the emptiness of those phenomena.
First, I am sorry to speak like what I say is the only truth. I do not mean to imply that. I'm sure everyone is aware that I am not all seeing and all knowing.
I understand what you are saying, but even the Buddha's last life was conditioned. Once he was completely free from tahna and avijja he experienced nibbana - never to be born again. Because there was still these conditions present he was able to be born again and again. A Buddha cannot be "born" enlghtened. This contradicts what the Buddha himself taught.
I agree with you that it is this heroic decision that is at the heart of the Boddhisatva Vows: choosing to become entangled once more, and for the benefit of all beings, in the web of dependent co-arising, but the choice to contiunue to be born to help other beings is only achievable if there is still some condition of 'becoming' left. Enlightenment or Nibbana or Nirvana is the complete cessation of these conditions. Once realized there is no more birth, "without remainder" as they say.
This is where I get a sense of great foreboding: the reason the Bible is such a poorly thought out Book is that it can be interpreted to say pretty much anything you want. The way certain people interpret it has made it non-definitive and therefore even possibly dangerous. I am therefore a little surprised that Buddhism appears to fall into the same trap. My understanding is that the Buddha wrote nothing down; word of mouth was the method of transmission. Much later his teachings, ( or as is probably more to the point, other peoples' versions of what his teachings were) were written down. This unfortunately has clouded and muddied the waters of his original message. The net result, it appears, is confusion and unnecessary time and effort splitting hairs and arguing over semantics. Why waste so much time on theological brainstorming? Without Absolute Knowledge there are No Absolute Answers.
I don't see it that way at all. Nothing that I have read in the Suttas seems poorly thought out whatsoever. The teachings are very straight forward and clear in my opinion.
I stated that mainly because people from different traditions may have different beliefs. I do not want to seem like I am disregarding what they think and claiming to be 100% correct. I in no way want it to appear that I believe the Sutras of the Mahayana to be irrelevant, nor any other tradition for that matter. I also do not wish to imply that I am infallible in my knowledge. I am well aware that I make mistakes. To err is human as they say. With that being said, I feel that it is very important to know what the Buddha said so that we have a proper foundation for our practice. Otherwise whatever we are practicing will not be Dhamma.
It is very true that for the first 500 years the teachings were recited orally in the form of chants, but they were verified originally by the first Buddhist council consisting of the Venerable Mahakassapa and 500 arahants less than a year after the Buddha's parinibbana. There Ananda verified the Dhamma while Upali verified the Vinaya. The second council convened about 100 years later to discuss the Vinaya, with no controversy about the Dhamma. Eventually around the third council the teachings finally were written down for fear of failing to remember them all along with some disputes over false views and theories.
What we have today may not be entirely perfect, but they are still very important to the understanding and practice of what the Buddha taught. I have no proof of this because I was not present when the Buddha was alive, but when I read them I see the truth that they attempt to share. Every detail of the Dhamma is there to be seen, practiced, and understood.
I feel that many people here do not appreciate my consistent use of Suttas in my posts, but I also feel that it is important to the further continuation of the Dhamma. So many people come to Buddhism with no real understanding of what the Buddha was all about. Whether or not anyone reads them or appreciates their availability, I personally feel that they should be readily obtainable when needed.
These are merely my opinions and not meant to be the absolute say on the matter, however, I feel very strongly that the Suttas should not be so easily written off. I encourage everyone to seriously take the time to explore the wisdom these wise teachings contain.
Please also know that no disrespect is implied by any of this. I just take my practice very seriously. I believe that study is equally as impotant as meditation. They go hand in hand.
On a side note, I am possibly taking temporary ordination as a Samanera (novice) at Wat Buddhanusorn to further my meditation practice.
Jason
I wish you great joy, Elohim.
Thank you for your reply to my post, it's good to hear that you have been accepted for temporary ordination. You have explained things clearly and for that I am grateful. I understand that it is up to the individual how far they immerse themselves into any philosophy or religion.
I'm glad, furthermore that you adressed the question of use of sutras in your posts, and my point in having mentioned it elsewhere on this forum (possibly that's what you're referring to) is that for people such as myself, reading such long texts, often couched in prosaic and slightly complex terms, is difficult. Whereas I do not dispute their sagacity or wisdom, for my part, being pretty new to this philosophy, they are too complex to decipher! This is why I would appreciate a synopsis - not in a watered-down presentation, but a brief summary of what there is to be understood. I would find this encouraging, and it would be a valuable portal through which even the most unintellectual seeker could step.
Metaphorically, it is akin to being presented with an elephant to eat, when all you can digest at the moment is a cheese sandwich - !! :crazy:
To me this is why the Buddha told us to question what we study, what we are taught, what we are told. Take heart my friend. You are not alone in your confusion.
Elohim: Congratulations on your temporary Ordination. I know you will do well.
Abraham,
What I said was not personally about you or your post. I am happy that you have joined us and I understand that you are relatively new to this. (I was once relatively new also. In fact, one time I went to a Thai temple and asked the Ajahn to explain their Hinayanan beliefs to me - not knowing at all that Hinayana was a negative, derogatory term for Theravada! I had merely read it in some book by an American Lama. How embarassing let me tell you. Great first impression they must have had of me - "So, tell me a little about your 'inferior vehicle' beliefs.")
I have just had many people suggest that I should not post the Suttas so often. While their reasons are good ones, ranging from rather having my persoanl experiences and undertsanding to not being able to understand all of the terms and concepts to just not like reading long posts, I just felt the need to address them here. To that I would mirror that fact that my personal experiences are personal and not likely to be the same for anyone else, Buddhism can be amazingly complex as well as simple, and reading may be a pain in the ass but these teachings should not be disregarded due to laziness (Lack of time is different, however, and I do not mind if nobody actually reads them at all. I just want them readily available.)
None of these statements are meant to be mean or critical in anyway. I began my journey into Buddhism the exact same way. I wanted personal testamonies, short and easy answers, and everything in plain, clear English. I was unfourtunately disappointed on all accounts. I slowly discovered that BUddhism was a vast organism of ideas and trainings unlike anything I've ever seen! While it is possible to keep it simplified and focus on just a few main points, I have been drawn into this boundless elucidation of Dhamma. I merely attempt to share these teachings with anyone that can profit from them.
My posts can easily be ignored by those that take the simpler approach. I believe that there is nothing wrong with keeping it simple as one of my favorite teachers in the Thai tradition advised the very same thing (Ajahn Chah). But for some people, like me, who have a certain type of personality and mindset, we cannot seem to benefit from beginning so simplistic. We have too many questions and habitual prejudices. We just need more than the average person to really have faith in these things. Without that faith in the beginning there will be no effort to practice. Without practice there will be no progress along the Path.... It all boils down to giving those people that need a little extra direction and insight the chance to gain it. (I have no problems in trying my best to explain certain Pali words, concepts, or trainings if there is any confusions about them. No one should have a problem with asking for clarification since this is a site for NewBuddhists!
Also, I just want people to have access to my sources when I derive my responses that include what the Buddha himself said about the subject.
With that being said I will conclude this semi-rant :rant: and let you all get on with your lives.
Jason
The sutras are the real basis of our search and journey. They provide a source of study and practice which is, to us, quite difficult to understand sometimes. This is the reason that we have living teachers and the writings of those who have passed before us.
It is not everyone's calling to study the texts, nor should it be. We also need the tellers of stories, the simplifiers, the poets and artists who will constantly reveal the Dharma in new ways.
I have said before how much I appreciate the links and verses that Elohim posts. They provide me with a resource to which I return. But then, I do cut and paste his posts into a separate file, which I have yet to get round to indexing. LOL
Thank you. I think that I could take permanent vows sometime in my life, but not right now. I have been practicing Buddhism for approximately 4-5 years maybe. I'm not sure because the last few years have gone by so quickly. I haven't really kept track! Hahahaha.
Sufferer,
I am not ordained yet. I have only gotten permission to take temporary ordination as a Samanera. That intails taking the 10 precepts (five more than lay-followers, two more than pah kows, and 217 less than monks). It will be only for a short time I'm afraid. I am going for about one month. I must go back to discuss when would be the best time. I assume November would be an ideal time. Anyway, thank you for your support.
Simon,
Jason