Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
i agree!!!!!!!!!! words are very similar to brushstrokes in a painting, they are nothing less than a mirror that reflects what it wishes to reflect, in whatever way it best can, sometimes, as in a painting, the paint of what the painting tries to represent shines it in its essence and essenceness, and sometimes even adds a fresh and wholly new light upon it
S9: I believe at some point you can say, “I am not deluded.” At some point, a Certainty enters in, becomes so obvious, that it cannot be denied.
At some point, what you finally Realize is that you have known this all of your life, and simply didn’t know that you knew it, overlooked the obvious. This is closer to you than your own jugular. It is more intimate than thought.
P: Words are very similar to brushstrokes in a painting, they are nothing less than a mirror that reflects what it wishes to reflect, in whatever way it best can, sometimes, as in a painting, the paint of what the painting tries to represent shines it in its essence and essence-ness, and sometimes even adds a fresh and wholly new light upon it.
S9: Thank you for that. It is lovely, and so very true.
There definitely is a longing going on in our deepest heart that will not be quieted until we can find our way back to wholeness. Words are like a love letter that travels in two directions at the same time. When we speak, we also hear our own words. It is like a letter from home, and every detail, a jewel, is precious to our heart. We find comfort in such correspondence with our deepest most intimate self, (our own Buddha Nature).
: ^ )
if i say i am not deluded all the time, it is a big fat lie
but
there are times that i do not deluded
and
most of the time i try not to be deluded, i mean i remind myself 'be careful here another puppet comes'
S9: I believe at some point you can say, “I am not deluded.” At some point, a Certainty enters in, becomes so obvious, that it cannot be denied.
true
this what it says 'has not done yet what has to be done'
At some point, what you finally Realize is that you have known this all of your life, and simply didn’t know that you knew it, overlooked the obvious. This is closer to you than your own jugular. It is more intimate than thought.
U: If I say I am not deluded all the time, it is a big fat lie.
S9: The mind is a dream instrument, and so in this way lives in delusion. It may say or think one thing, and than it will turn right around and think the opposite thing altogether. Even when the mind is thinking correctly, it is only thinking in ½ truths because it is not large enough or capable enough of holding nor understanding the vastness of Reality.
The mind thinks in opposites like up and down, right and wrong, yes and no, (dualistically),in order to make sense. Whereas Reality is All-at-Once, Similtaneous,or Whole. So how can we possibly get beyond this when using the mind as the tool of knowing?
In only one way do this, escape these 1/2 truths. We must step outside of this problem (mind) disidentify with this instrument called mind, and by finally seeing clearly that we are not this mind (ego self), and we are not a part of this illusion/dream, nor any or all of minds striving to be in control of these stories.
This is a kind of healing. : ^ )
Q: “Enlightenment is not liberation of the mind, but Liberation FROM the mind.”
See what is out side the mind…”That thou art.”
U: I remind myself 'be careful here another puppet comes'
S9: The master puppet, and puppeteer, is your own mind. You do not have to drop every puppet in the universe, a huge job, which may not be even do-able in such a lineal fashion. The mind’s imagination is very capable of creating from 2 to 200 puppets as fast as you can drop the one. Simply drop your identification with this puppet you call me, ego mind, the great dreamer, and it will not much matter what dreams take place after that.
This is less like mending fences, and more like jumping off a cliff. ; ^ )
Often, just about now, people begin to worry what will happen to their lives, or within their lives, if they are not there to control the outcomes. The strange thing is that, one of our biggest illusions is that we were ever IN control.
This dream is completely self-correcting, and have we only thought that it was we choosing what was happening, all along. Step out and notice, surprisingly, just how automatic it all is. (Wu Wei= "Look ma, no hands.")
U: If I say I am not deluded all the time, it is a big fat lie.
S9: The mind is a dream instrument, and so in this way lives in delusion. It may say or think one thing, and than it will turn right around and think the opposite thing altogether. Even when the mind is thinking correctly, it is only thinking in ½ truths because it is not large enough or capable enough of holding nor understanding the vastness of Reality.
The mind thinks in opposites like up and down, right and wrong, yes and no, (dualistically),in order to make sense. Whereas Reality is All-at-Once, Similtaneous,or Whole. So how can we possibly get beyond this when using the mind as the tool of knowing?
In only one way do this, escape these 1/2 truths. We must step outside of this problem (mind) disidentify with this instrument called mind, and by finally seeing clearly that we are not this mind (ego self), and we are not a part of this illusion/dream, nor any or all of minds striving to be in control of these stories.
This is a kind of healing. : ^ )
Q: “Enlightenment is not liberation of the mind, but Liberation FROM the mind.”
See what is out side the mind…”That thou art.”
U: I remind myself 'be careful here another puppet comes'
S9: The master puppet, and puppeteer, is your own mind. You do not have to drop every puppet in the universe, a huge job, which may not be even do-able in such a lineal fashion. The mind’s imagination is very capable of creating from 2 to 200 puppets as fast as you can drop the one. Simply drop your identification with this puppet you call me, ego mind, the great dreamer, and it will not much matter what dreams take place after that.
This is less like mending fences, and more like jumping off a cliff. ; ^ )
Often, just about now, people begin to worry what will happen to their lives, or within their lives, if they are not there to control the outcomes. The strange thing is that, one of our biggest illusions is that we were ever IN control.
This dream is completely self-correcting, and have we only thought that it was we choosing what was happening, all along. Step out and notice, surprisingly, just how automatic it all is. (Wu Wei= "Look ma, no hands.")
Warm Regards,
S9
i agree with you
see i have to use i, you, etc. to make a meaningful conversation in day-today-life
that does not mean that i cling to I
but
still i can not say i stay 'awake' all the time
without effort i fall back to the 'dream' and after few seconds i notice that i am dreaming
now i notice that such dreaming episodes have been reducing by degrees
U: Still i can not say i stay 'awake' all the time
without effort i fall back to the 'dream' and after few seconds i notice that i am dreaming.
S9: We all have glimpses, all of the time, throughout our whole life. Most of the time we have no idea what they are looking at (experiencing), and only feel relaxed or in no need of running after some future fulfillment.
However, when we do begin to notice and see, very often our ‘knee jerk reaction’ is to try to hold on to it. This is effort, and effort puts us directly back into identifying with the mind. POOF!
Liberation is a state of no-effort, or is completely effortless. If 'Buddha Nature' is always 'Here and Now' and 'Constantly (just what IT IS)', than what exactly is it that calls for effort on our part?
Liberation is a state of no-effort, or is completely effortless. If 'Buddha Nature' is always 'Here and Now' and 'Constantly (just what IT IS)',
true
there is no argument about this
but when one is 100% sure one is not at this state/stage what do you call for it?
what exactly is it that calls for effort on our part?
i think (because i can not say for sure) there is a greater possibility with a monk/nun who has been practising morality (sila) and concentration (samadhi) for a long time and then gain the wisdom of anatta (open to non-duality) has nothing to do anymore
because 'Buddha nature' is always 'Here and Now' and 'Constantly (just what IT IS)' could be established from the moment s/he gains anatta wisdom
in other words, for them when they get Right View the other seven parts of the Noble Eightfold Path fall into places and the liberation is then and there
they are with the citta = pure mind = kusala vinnana (skillful consciousness)
but for other cases 'they need to practice Right Thought etc.'
still they are having different digrees of unskillful consciousness=the mind tainted with greed and hate but there is no delusion
rather than generalizing it, i must say in my case, i have a long way to go
U: When one is 100% sure one is not at this state/stage what do you call for it?
S9: Sorry, my new friend, but I call it deluded. ; ^ )
Let us remember that the Buddha said that we are ALL 100% Enlightened right now, and that we just don’t know it. In the moment of his Wakening, one of the first things that he said was, “We are all Buddhas.”
So now what?
Stop searching for Realization in the future, STOP right where you are, and find it right NOW.
Ask your self, “What is Present in this exact ‘Immediate’ second, in fact has been Present in every single second of my whole life, and I have been overlooking it?”
U: i think (because i can not say for sure) there is a greater possibility with a monk/nun who has been practicing morality (sila) and concentration (samadhi) for a long time and then gain the wisdom of anatta (open to non-duality) has nothing to do anymore.
S9: Again, this is based on the concept that you don’t already have it, and that you need to do something first in order to get it in some future. This is simply not the case.
U: But for other cases 'they need to practice Right Thought etc.'
still they are having different degrees of unskillful consciousness=the mind tainted with greed and hate but there is no delusion.
S9: Realization is not a sage like mind. Realization is finally dis-identifying with any kind of mind whatsoever. Certainly the mind self improves given time, this is wisdom and skillful living. Most of this comes about through maturity. But this improved mind is not a prerequisite of Realization.
I know this may seem silly or wrong headed to you at this time. I am not asking you to believe me. But, I do believe you will find it quite helpful to investigate personally what I am saying to you.
U: When one is 100% sure one is not at this state/stage what do you call for it?
S9: Sorry, my new friend, but I call it deluded. ; ^ )
Let us remember that the Buddha said that we are ALL 100% Enlightened right now, and that we just don’t know it. In the moment of his Wakening, one of the first things that he said was, “We are all Buddhas.”
So now what?
Stop searching for Realization in the future, STOP right where you are, and find it right NOW.
Ask your self, “What is Present in this exact ‘Immediate’ second, in fact has been Present in every single second of my whole life, and I have been overlooking it?”
U: i think (because i can not say for sure) there is a greater possibility with a monk/nun who has been practicing morality (sila) and concentration (samadhi) for a long time and then gain the wisdom of anatta (open to non-duality) has nothing to do anymore.
S9: Again, this is based on the concept that you don’t already have it, and that you need to do something first in order to get it in some future. This is simply not the case.
U: But for other cases 'they need to practice Right Thought etc.'
still they are having different degrees of unskillful consciousness=the mind tainted with greed and hate but there is no delusion.
S9: Realization is not a sage like mind. Realization is finally dis-identifying with any kind of mind whatsoever. Certainly the mind self improves given time, this is wisdom and skillful living. Most of this comes about through maturity. But this improved mind is not a prerequisite of Realization.
I know this may seem silly or wrong headed to you at this time. I am not asking you to believe me. But, I do believe you will find it quite helpful to investigate personally what I am saying to you.
Warm Regards,
S9__________________
no, i am not searching for Realization any more
once one realized, that is it
Certainly the mind self improves given time, this is wisdom and skillful living.
this is what i was trying to tell
i am fully aware that it needs time for the mind to self improve
U: No, i am not searching for Realization any more. Once one realized, that is it.
S9: Would you like to share exactly what you have Realized, and how this came about? I always find this very interesting. Everyone seems to be quite unique in this, not so much what they realize, but how it finally dawns. : ^ )
I also find that I never tire of the many beautiful ways that Realization can be indicated by others. Some of the greatest Spiritual Geniuses have applied themselves to doing just this. Two of my favorites are Meister Johann Eckhart and Jela al Din Rumi.
U: i am fully aware that it needs time for the mind to self improve.
S9: The mind’s very nature is to constantly change, and adapt. This continues as usual after one is fully Realized. We also continue to clean house, sweep away old habits of thinking, when we know the punch line. Our brain is like an organic computer and often holds old cookies about how to act and think that we are not aware of. So yes, this requires time (as you have said), and attention in order to reprogram.
This ongoing act of purification is full of joy for the mind. To peel off the burden of old ways of thinking often only takes noticing the old ways and how they have been pushing you around. Your life becomes a work of art.
U: No, i am not searching for Realization any more. Once one realized, that is it.
S9: Would you like to share exactly what you have Realized, and how this came about? I always find this very interesting. Everyone seems to be quite unique in this, not so much what they realize, but how it finally dawns. : ^ )
I also find that I never tire of the many beautiful ways that Realization can be indicated by others. Some of the greatest Spiritual Geniuses have applied themselves to doing just this. Two of my favorites are Meister Johann Eckhart and Jela al Din Rumi.
U: i am fully aware that it needs time for the mind to self improve.
S9: The mind’s very nature is to constantly change, and adapt. This continues as usual after one is fully Realized. We also continue to clean house, sweep away old habits of thinking, when we know the punch line. Our brain is like an organic computer and often holds old cookies about how to act and think that we are not aware of. So yes, this requires time (as you have said), and attention in order to reprogram.
This ongoing act of purification is full of joy for the mind. To peel off the burden of old ways of thinking often only takes noticing the old ways and how they have been pushing you around. Your life becomes a work of art.
Warm Regards,
S9
with respect to S9,
in the morning, today, i looked up the sky and saw the moon and it gives me a good simile
suddenly you see the full moon and it is like the realization or the first experience of non-duality/anatta/Right view
after one week there is no full moon but you know what is full moon
after four weeks there is no moon to be seen but that does not mean there is no moon
yes, it says there are 84,000 ways to understand the Lord Buddha's Teaching
what i used was the 'sabbasava sutta' with the help of all other dhamma talks i had listened and the dhamma books i had read
i had been trying to get the experience of 'internal sense base+external sense base+consciousness' whenever i rememberd during the day with day-today-activities and whenever i sat for meditation
when we sit for meditation it is easy because most of the time we have only the body feeling (touch) and hearing
for example:
now i use the keyboard to write and if i can remind the mind to what is internal sense base now (it is my hand) what is external sense base now (it is keyboard) and to feel the touch my mind (body consciousness) should be here
when i drink tea i check how this apply into the 'theory of thinnan sangathi passo'
my eyes + the colour 'of the tea'+eye conscioussness
my hand+ tea cup + body consciousness
my nose+ smell of tea+ nose consciousness
my tongue+taste of tea + tongue consciousness
'drink tea' can be devided like wise according to the 'theory' and we can practice the theory
i had been doing this for a while and one day when i was doing the walking (my foot+floor+body consciousness) suddenly 'it happened' and there is no more doubt about Lord Buddha's Teaching so no more questions
still i have a question, not about the theory but about the practice
with respect to S9, can i ask a question?
how can one know one is in sakadagami magga or anagami magga?
U: How can one know one is in sakadagami magga, or anagami magga?
S9: I must confess that I am not a Buddhist scholar, so that all I can tell you about such things as these is about my own personal experience.
If one is calling them selves “A Once Returner,” IMO, he has only had a glimpse of Nirvana, or his Buddha Nature, and has tried to hold onto it with his mind. Nirvana or Buddha Nature is not a place you go to and simply can come back from, nor a state of being that is discontinuous. This obviously shows that he is still identifying with the mind, and is only trying to own Nirvana as a mind object, which cannot be done.
If someone however is “A None Returner,” than He has come upon Nirvana, or his own ‘Buddha Nature,’ and has seen clearly that is him. Therefore he has completely, or 100% dis-identified with the mind and all of her stories, fully realizing that you cannot serve two masters. He now sees his true Being as Buddha Nature, or Nirvana. He fully realizes that this has been the Truth all along, everything else was a mistake, and that nothing has actually changed. So why on earth would he return to what he has finally completely seen through?
Once you Realize 100% that you are not the mind, you do not have to hold this idea in the forefront of your mind continually in order to make it so. It just IS. Mind can be allowed to play, and dance, and sing, without worrying than you might forget who/what is your Real Being, anymore that if you forgot to keep track of it, you might simply stop breathing.
S9: I must confess that I am not a Buddhist scholar,
still i think it is not too much to ask
what do you think about 'ten fetters'?
if it is just ignore the question, thanks
If one is calling them selves “A Once Returner,” IMO, he has only had a glimpse of Nirvana, or his Buddha Nature, and has tried to hold onto it with his mind. Nirvana or Buddha Nature is not a place you go to and simply can come back from, nor a state of being that is discontinuous. This obviously shows that he is still identifying with the mind, and is only trying to own Nirvana as a mind object, which cannot be done.
but according to suttas this is because s/he has seven more fetters with her/him namely the two lower-fetters of kama-raga, patigha, and other five higher fetters of rupa-raga, arupa-raga, uddhacca, mana and abhijja
If someone however is “A None Returner,” than He has come upon Nirvana, or his own ‘Buddha Nature,’ and has seen clearly that is him. Therefore he has completely, or 100% dis-identified with the mind and all of her stories, fully realizing that you cannot serve two masters. He now sees his true Being as Buddha Nature, or Nirvana. He fully realizes that this has been the Truth all along, everything else was a mistake, and that nothing has actually changed.
So why on earth would he return to what he has finally completely seen through?
he would not return because he has no more kama-raga or patigha (no clinging to five sense bases)
in Buddha's Discourse it is mentioned somewhere that once one perfected the knowledge of the nutrient food (kabalinka-ahara) one becomes non-returner
Once you Realize 100% that you are not the mind, you do not have to hold this idea in the forefront of your mind continually in order to make it so. It just IS. Mind can be allowed to play, and dance, and sing, without worrying than you might forget who/what is your Real Being, anymore that if you forgot to keep track of it, you might simply stop breathing.
from the first stage (stream entry - having a glimpse of nirvana/experiencing the non-duality nature/getting the Noble Right View) one is free from fear and worry
from the second stage (stream winner) the freedom of fear and worry is established
according to suttas at this stage only three lower fetters namely skkaya dhitti, vicikcca, seelvatha-pramasa are not to be seen
but
all other seven fetters are present
S9: A fetter is just something that you are still clinging to, or for some reason has a hold on you, whether it is 10 or 2000 fetters. Everyone has his or her own personal favorite fetters.
I believe that Buddhism makes lists of such things as fetters in order to give us some idea of the multitude of what these subtle and not so subtle fetters may be. But in the end, we will do battle with our own self, or what we thought this self to be.
U: In Buddha's Discourse it is mentioned somewhere that once one perfected the knowledge of the nutrient food (kabalinka-ahara) one becomes non-returner.
S9: Any tiny thread of mind that you take seriously enough to identify with it, will hold you prisoner to, or within, the mind. Liberation is an ALL or nothing proposition. “Jump off the edge of the earth.”
In other words, we must cut ALL the threads that bind us. We can do this slowly, one at a time (an arduous, and painstaking task) or we can simply dis-identify with everything ALL ay once (far more radical, granted). But either way, we will eventually dis-identify COMPLETELY.
U: According to suttas at this stage only three lower fetters namely skkaya dhitti, vicikcca, seelvatha-pramasa are not to be seen
but
all other seven fetters are present, this is my understanding.
S9: I think that Buddha understood human nature, and its most common attribute of, “Rather the familiar pain that I know, than the scary jump into the completely unknown.” So he gave us lists of exercises (practices), which amounted to training wheels, until we could finally make the final plunge, and leave our mind behind.
The strange thing is it comes down to One final choice. Because Enlightenment (Our Buddha Nature or "Who we were b/4 we were born" is always right there, is simply who we are, and not something we get or need to earn in some way. We can simply reach out at any time and pluck the fruit. There is ABSOLUTELY nothing that we must do first. : ^ )
Clinically, dissociation is a state that is not sought for, uncontrolled and experienced as unpleasant. It is one of the many symptoms of depression, PTSD, borderline personality disorder, and many psychotic states.
Clinically, dissociation is a state that is not sought for, uncontrolled and experienced as unpleasant. It is one of the many symptoms of depression, PTSD, borderline personality disorder, and many psychotic states.
Yes, if speaking psychologically/sociologically;
Dissociation = "I don't belong in that group" Dis-identification = "I don't know who I am or where I belong in the world"
S9: I think that
Buddha understood human nature, and its most common attribute of, “Rather the familiar pain that I know, than the scary jump into the completely unknown.” So he gave us lists of exercises (practices), which amounted to training wheels, until we could finally make the final plunge, and leave our mind behind.
The strange thing is it comes down to One final choice. Because Enlightenment (Our Buddha Nature or "Who we were b/4 we were born" is always right there, is simply who we are, and not something we get or need to earn in some way. We can simply reach out at any time and pluck the fruit. There is ABSOLUTELY nothing that we must do first. : ^ )
you said 'i think' so you are not sure
so it is better if we will leave it as that for the moment
Comments
what is the picture come into your mind? a thing? a person? an animal?
whether it is a thing or person or animal that is a puppet in your own mind
you build things (react) to the sound of that puppet
can you say you are not deluded?
U: Can you say you are not deluded?
S9: I believe at some point you can say, “I am not deluded.” At some point, a Certainty enters in, becomes so obvious, that it cannot be denied.
At some point, what you finally Realize is that you have known this all of your life, and simply didn’t know that you knew it, overlooked the obvious. This is closer to you than your own jugular. It is more intimate than thought.
Warm Regards,
S9
P: Words are very similar to brushstrokes in a painting, they are nothing less than a mirror that reflects what it wishes to reflect, in whatever way it best can, sometimes, as in a painting, the paint of what the painting tries to represent shines it in its essence and essence-ness, and sometimes even adds a fresh and wholly new light upon it.
S9: Thank you for that. It is lovely, and so very true.
There definitely is a longing going on in our deepest heart that will not be quieted until we can find our way back to wholeness. Words are like a love letter that travels in two directions at the same time. When we speak, we also hear our own words. It is like a letter from home, and every detail, a jewel, is precious to our heart. We find comfort in such correspondence with our deepest most intimate self, (our own Buddha Nature).
: ^ )
Warm Regards,
S9
if i say i am not deluded all the time, it is a big fat lie
but
there are times that i do not deluded
and
most of the time i try not to be deluded, i mean i remind myself 'be careful here another puppet comes' true
this what it says 'has not done yet what has to be done'
sure thing, agreed
U: If I say I am not deluded all the time, it is a big fat lie.
S9: The mind is a dream instrument, and so in this way lives in delusion. It may say or think one thing, and than it will turn right around and think the opposite thing altogether. Even when the mind is thinking correctly, it is only thinking in ½ truths because it is not large enough or capable enough of holding nor understanding the vastness of Reality.
The mind thinks in opposites like up and down, right and wrong, yes and no, (dualistically),in order to make sense. Whereas Reality is All-at-Once, Similtaneous,or Whole. So how can we possibly get beyond this when using the mind as the tool of knowing?
In only one way do this, escape these 1/2 truths. We must step outside of this problem (mind) disidentify with this instrument called mind, and by finally seeing clearly that we are not this mind (ego self), and we are not a part of this illusion/dream, nor any or all of minds striving to be in control of these stories.
This is a kind of healing. : ^ )
Q: “Enlightenment is not liberation of the mind, but Liberation FROM the mind.”
See what is out side the mind…”That thou art.”
U: I remind myself 'be careful here another puppet comes'
S9: The master puppet, and puppeteer, is your own mind. You do not have to drop every puppet in the universe, a huge job, which may not be even do-able in such a lineal fashion. The mind’s imagination is very capable of creating from 2 to 200 puppets as fast as you can drop the one. Simply drop your identification with this puppet you call me, ego mind, the great dreamer, and it will not much matter what dreams take place after that.
This is less like mending fences, and more like jumping off a cliff. ; ^ )
Often, just about now, people begin to worry what will happen to their lives, or within their lives, if they are not there to control the outcomes. The strange thing is that, one of our biggest illusions is that we were ever IN control.
This dream is completely self-correcting, and have we only thought that it was we choosing what was happening, all along. Step out and notice, surprisingly, just how automatic it all is. (Wu Wei= "Look ma, no hands.")
Warm Regards,
S9
i agree with you
see i have to use i, you, etc. to make a meaningful conversation in day-today-life
that does not mean that i cling to I
but
still i can not say i stay 'awake' all the time
without effort i fall back to the 'dream' and after few seconds i notice that i am dreaming
now i notice that such dreaming episodes have been reducing by degrees
with respect to S9,
upekka
U: Still i can not say i stay 'awake' all the time
without effort i fall back to the 'dream' and after few seconds i notice that i am dreaming.
S9: We all have glimpses, all of the time, throughout our whole life. Most of the time we have no idea what they are looking at (experiencing), and only feel relaxed or in no need of running after some future fulfillment.
However, when we do begin to notice and see, very often our ‘knee jerk reaction’ is to try to hold on to it. This is effort, and effort puts us directly back into identifying with the mind. POOF!
Liberation is a state of no-effort, or is completely effortless. If 'Buddha Nature' is always 'Here and Now' and 'Constantly (just what IT IS)', than what exactly is it that calls for effort on our part?
Warm Regards,
S9
true
there is no argument about this
but when one is 100% sure one is not at this state/stage what do you call for it?
i think (because i can not say for sure) there is a greater possibility with a monk/nun who has been practising morality (sila) and concentration (samadhi) for a long time and then gain the wisdom of anatta (open to non-duality) has nothing to do anymore
because 'Buddha nature' is always 'Here and Now' and 'Constantly (just what IT IS)' could be established from the moment s/he gains anatta wisdom
in other words, for them when they get Right View the other seven parts of the Noble Eightfold Path fall into places and the liberation is then and there
they are with the citta = pure mind = kusala vinnana (skillful consciousness)
but for other cases 'they need to practice Right Thought etc.'
still they are having different digrees of unskillful consciousness=the mind tainted with greed and hate but there is no delusion
rather than generalizing it, i must say in my case, i have a long way to go
With respect to S9
U: When one is 100% sure one is not at this state/stage what do you call for it?
S9: Sorry, my new friend, but I call it deluded. ; ^ )
Let us remember that the Buddha said that we are ALL 100% Enlightened right now, and that we just don’t know it. In the moment of his Wakening, one of the first things that he said was, “We are all Buddhas.”
So now what?
Stop searching for Realization in the future, STOP right where you are, and find it right NOW.
Ask your self, “What is Present in this exact ‘Immediate’ second, in fact has been Present in every single second of my whole life, and I have been overlooking it?”
U: i think (because i can not say for sure) there is a greater possibility with a monk/nun who has been practicing morality (sila) and concentration (samadhi) for a long time and then gain the wisdom of anatta (open to non-duality) has nothing to do anymore.
S9: Again, this is based on the concept that you don’t already have it, and that you need to do something first in order to get it in some future. This is simply not the case.
U: But for other cases 'they need to practice Right Thought etc.'
still they are having different degrees of unskillful consciousness=the mind tainted with greed and hate but there is no delusion.
S9: Realization is not a sage like mind. Realization is finally dis-identifying with any kind of mind whatsoever. Certainly the mind self improves given time, this is wisdom and skillful living. Most of this comes about through maturity. But this improved mind is not a prerequisite of Realization.
I know this may seem silly or wrong headed to you at this time. I am not asking you to believe me. But, I do believe you will find it quite helpful to investigate personally what I am saying to you.
Warm Regards,
S9__________________
no, i am not searching for Realization any more
once one realized, that is it
this is what i was trying to tell
i am fully aware that it needs time for the mind to self improve
U: No, i am not searching for Realization any more. Once one realized, that is it.
S9: Would you like to share exactly what you have Realized, and how this came about? I always find this very interesting. Everyone seems to be quite unique in this, not so much what they realize, but how it finally dawns. : ^ )
I also find that I never tire of the many beautiful ways that Realization can be indicated by others. Some of the greatest Spiritual Geniuses have applied themselves to doing just this. Two of my favorites are Meister Johann Eckhart and Jela al Din Rumi.
U: i am fully aware that it needs time for the mind to self improve.
S9: The mind’s very nature is to constantly change, and adapt. This continues as usual after one is fully Realized. We also continue to clean house, sweep away old habits of thinking, when we know the punch line. Our brain is like an organic computer and often holds old cookies about how to act and think that we are not aware of. So yes, this requires time (as you have said), and attention in order to reprogram.
This ongoing act of purification is full of joy for the mind. To peel off the burden of old ways of thinking often only takes noticing the old ways and how they have been pushing you around. Your life becomes a work of art.
Warm Regards,
S9
with respect to S9,
in the morning, today, i looked up the sky and saw the moon and it gives me a good simile
suddenly you see the full moon and it is like the realization or the first experience of non-duality/anatta/Right view
after one week there is no full moon but you know what is full moon
after four weeks there is no moon to be seen but that does not mean there is no moon
yes, it says there are 84,000 ways to understand the Lord Buddha's Teaching
what i used was the 'sabbasava sutta' with the help of all other dhamma talks i had listened and the dhamma books i had read
i had been trying to get the experience of 'internal sense base+external sense base+consciousness' whenever i rememberd during the day with day-today-activities and whenever i sat for meditation
when we sit for meditation it is easy because most of the time we have only the body feeling (touch) and hearing
for example:
now i use the keyboard to write and if i can remind the mind to what is internal sense base now (it is my hand) what is external sense base now (it is keyboard) and to feel the touch my mind (body consciousness) should be here
when i drink tea i check how this apply into the 'theory of thinnan sangathi passo'
my eyes + the colour 'of the tea'+eye conscioussness
my hand+ tea cup + body consciousness
my nose+ smell of tea+ nose consciousness
my tongue+taste of tea + tongue consciousness
'drink tea' can be devided like wise according to the 'theory' and we can practice the theory
i had been doing this for a while and one day when i was doing the walking (my foot+floor+body consciousness) suddenly 'it happened' and there is no more doubt about Lord Buddha's Teaching so no more questions
still i have a question, not about the theory but about the practice
with respect to S9, can i ask a question?
how can one know one is in sakadagami magga or anagami magga?
U: How can one know one is in sakadagami magga, or anagami magga?
S9: I must confess that I am not a Buddhist scholar, so that all I can tell you about such things as these is about my own personal experience.
If one is calling them selves “A Once Returner,” IMO, he has only had a glimpse of Nirvana, or his Buddha Nature, and has tried to hold onto it with his mind. Nirvana or Buddha Nature is not a place you go to and simply can come back from, nor a state of being that is discontinuous. This obviously shows that he is still identifying with the mind, and is only trying to own Nirvana as a mind object, which cannot be done.
If someone however is “A None Returner,” than He has come upon Nirvana, or his own ‘Buddha Nature,’ and has seen clearly that is him. Therefore he has completely, or 100% dis-identified with the mind and all of her stories, fully realizing that you cannot serve two masters. He now sees his true Being as Buddha Nature, or Nirvana. He fully realizes that this has been the Truth all along, everything else was a mistake, and that nothing has actually changed. So why on earth would he return to what he has finally completely seen through?
Once you Realize 100% that you are not the mind, you do not have to hold this idea in the forefront of your mind continually in order to make it so. It just IS. Mind can be allowed to play, and dance, and sing, without worrying than you might forget who/what is your Real Being, anymore that if you forgot to keep track of it, you might simply stop breathing.
Warm Regards,
S9
__________________
still i think it is not too much to ask
what do you think about 'ten fetters'?
if it is just ignore the question, thanks but according to suttas this is because s/he has seven more fetters with her/him namely the two lower-fetters of kama-raga, patigha, and other five higher fetters of rupa-raga, arupa-raga, uddhacca, mana and abhijja
he would not return because he has no more kama-raga or patigha (no clinging to five sense bases)
in Buddha's Discourse it is mentioned somewhere that once one perfected the knowledge of the nutrient food (kabalinka-ahara) one becomes non-returner
according to suttas at this stage only three lower fetters namely skkaya dhitti, vicikcca, seelvatha-pramasa are not to be seen
but
all other seven fetters are present
this is my understanding
with respect,
upekka
Dis-identification = "that self isn't what I thought it was"
Different concepts.
U: What do you think about 'ten fetters'?
S9: A fetter is just something that you are still clinging to, or for some reason has a hold on you, whether it is 10 or 2000 fetters. Everyone has his or her own personal favorite fetters.
I believe that Buddhism makes lists of such things as fetters in order to give us some idea of the multitude of what these subtle and not so subtle fetters may be. But in the end, we will do battle with our own self, or what we thought this self to be.
U: In Buddha's Discourse it is mentioned somewhere that once one perfected the knowledge of the nutrient food (kabalinka-ahara) one becomes non-returner.
S9: Any tiny thread of mind that you take seriously enough to identify with it, will hold you prisoner to, or within, the mind. Liberation is an ALL or nothing proposition. “Jump off the edge of the earth.”
In other words, we must cut ALL the threads that bind us. We can do this slowly, one at a time (an arduous, and painstaking task) or we can simply dis-identify with everything ALL ay once (far more radical, granted). But either way, we will eventually dis-identify COMPLETELY.
U: According to suttas at this stage only three lower fetters namely skkaya dhitti, vicikcca, seelvatha-pramasa are not to be seen
but
all other seven fetters are present, this is my understanding.
S9: I think that Buddha understood human nature, and its most common attribute of, “Rather the familiar pain that I know, than the scary jump into the completely unknown.” So he gave us lists of exercises (practices), which amounted to training wheels, until we could finally make the final plunge, and leave our mind behind.
The strange thing is it comes down to One final choice. Because Enlightenment (Our Buddha Nature or "Who we were b/4 we were born" is always right there, is simply who we are, and not something we get or need to earn in some way. We can simply reach out at any time and pluck the fruit. There is ABSOLUTELY nothing that we must do first. : ^ )
Warm Regards,
S9
.
Dissociation = "I don't belong in that group"
Dis-identification = "I don't know who I am or where I belong in the world"
you said 'i think' so you are not sure
so it is better if we will leave it as that for the moment
thanks for your all responses
.[/quote]