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Buddhist Canon

KonchokChophelKonchokChophel
edited April 2010 in Buddhism Basics
Can we be sure that all the buddhist texts in the different buddhist canons are actually what Gautama Buddha said? I don't think so because it was written down many years after the death of the Buddha and several things could have gone wrong in that time.Monks who implanted their own ideas for instance.

Comments

  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited April 2010
    No, but we can be reasonably certain that some are closer than others based on things like textual analysis.
  • aMattaMatt Veteran
    edited April 2010
    Jason wrote: »
    No, but we can be reasonably certain that some are closer than others based on things like textual analysis.

    And by observing them in connection to the practice, where we can resonate with the truth of the words, exactly stated as such, or not.
  • KonchokChophelKonchokChophel
    edited April 2010
    Yes,by practice one sometimes feels this is true,but can you specify how this textual analysis works? For instance when you compare a work of the Tripitaka from maybe the Nirmanakaya Buddha with a terma from maybe the Dharmakaya Buddha?
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited April 2010
    In 2 words:
    kalama Sutta.

    :)
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited April 2010
    KonchokChophel wrote: »
    Can we be sure that all the buddhist texts in the different buddhist canons are actually what Gautama Buddha said? I don't think so because it was written down many years after the death of the Buddha and several things could have gone wrong in that time.Monks who implanted their own ideas for instance.
    Most of the texts are fine because they have the same message or theme of non-attachment towards the five aggregates is the cessation of suffering. Thus this we can confirm via our own experience.

    The Buddha said his teachings are connectedness with emptiness.

    So, occassionally there are texts that stand out strongly has been inconsistant with the rest of the canon.

    :)
  • TransmetaphysicalTransmetaphysical Veteran
    edited April 2010
    People seem to underestimate the ancients. The ancient oral traditions were one of the best forms of record keeping during those times. They were able to memorize things much better than us. Modern man can't even remember a telephone number anymore. However, there are still Muslims today who can recite the entire Quran verbatum from memory.


    .
  • KonchokChophelKonchokChophel
    edited April 2010
    thnx
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited April 2010
    Transmetaphysical wrote: »
    ...there are still Muslims today who can recite the entire Quran verbatum from memory.
    Indeed they can. The way the Canon is compiled is much easier to remember than the Quran. The Canon is made of numerical lists and stock phrases.

    :)
  • KonchokChophelKonchokChophel
    edited April 2010
    I agree about the good memory,but what about bad intention?
    Catholic monks are known to deliberately have mistranslated the Bible.So it is thinkable that buddhist monks translated buddhist scripture according to their ideas.
  • TransmetaphysicalTransmetaphysical Veteran
    edited April 2010
    KonchokChophel wrote: »
    I agree about the good memory,but what about bad intention?
    Catholic monks are known to deliberately have mistranslated the Bible.So it is thinkable that buddhist monks translated buddhist scripture according to their ideas.

    No. The Roman Empire, Constantine, and the Council of Nicea are not comparable to the Buddhist monks. Constantine admittedly had the intent to use religion to rule. One religion, one empire. Buddhism had more humble origins (as I'm sure Gnosticism, the true Christianity did as well).


    .
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited April 2010
    KonchokChophel wrote: »
    So it is thinkable that buddhist monks translated buddhist scripture according to their ideas.
    I already said, the salient theme of the suttas is non-attachment towards the five aggregates.

    Indeed, when naughty monks mistranslate, it stands out like a sore thumb.

    The Buddha spoke the Dhamma perfectly.

    If one cannot understand the words of a sutta, if they lack logic, then that sutta is mistranslated.

    :)
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited April 2010
    Dhamma Dhatu wrote: »
    If one cannot understand the words of a sutta, if they lack logic, then that sutta is mistranslated.
    For example, apply logic to the follow sutta:
    'All phenomena are rooted in desire [zeal or chanda].
    "'All phenomena come into play through attention.
    "'All phenomena have contact as their origination.
    "'All phenomena have feeling as their meeting place.
    "'All phenomena have concentration as their presiding state.
    "'All phenomena have mindfulness as their governing principle.
    "'All phenomena have discernment as their surpassing state.
    "'All phenomena have release as their heartwood.
    "'All phenomena gain their footing in the deathless.
    "'All phenomena have Unbinding as their final end [culmination].'

    Mula Sutta: Rooted
    A block of concrete is a phenomena. Do the above principles apply to a block of concrete? Certainly not. Therefore, this sutta is mistranslated. The translation is rooted.

    But if the word 'phenomena' is changed to 'skilful practises', it makes perfect sense.

    :)

    "O Bhikkhus. The footprints of all land-bound creatures fit within the footprint of the elephant; the elephant's footprint is said to be the supreme footprint in terms of size. Similarly all skilful dhammas have heedfulness as their base, converge within the bounds of heedfulness. Heedfulness may be said to be supreme amongst those dhammas." [S.V.43]
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited April 2010
    For example, apply logic to the follow sutta:
    Having first directed one's thoughts and made an evaluation, one then breaks out into speech. That's why directed thought & evaluation are verbal fabrications.

    MN 44
    How can thought be a verbal fabrication when the sutta states thought leads to speech?

    But if the word 'fabrictions' is changed to 'fabrictors', it makes perfect sense.

    :)
  • jinzangjinzang Veteran
    edited April 2010
    KonchokChophel wrote: »
    Can we be sure that all the buddhist texts in the different buddhist canons are actually what Gautama Buddha said?

    No, not in the way you mean it. But why does it matter? The more important question is, are the teachings in the buddhist canons true?
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