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Tranquilize the bodily formation.. the forgotten step?
shanyin
Novice YoginSault Ontario Veteran
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lY77In3ZYGI&feature=related
Here Bhante Vimalaramsi points out that Buddha never seemed to use the words abdomen, nostril tip, or upper lip, that these came from commentaries and that nobody seems to be using the step of 'tranquilizing the bodily formation'.
Vimalaramsi describes tranquilizing the bodily formation as recognizing and letting go of craving, manifested as tension or tightness in the head.
Has anyone else noticed that the Buddha never used the those terms (upper lip, abdomen, nostril tip.)? Does anyone else just use the method taught in the suttras which seems to be more of "understanding" what the breath is doing (long, short, etc.) And the tranquilizing the bodily formation is often not talked about?
Here Bhante Vimalaramsi points out that Buddha never seemed to use the words abdomen, nostril tip, or upper lip, that these came from commentaries and that nobody seems to be using the step of 'tranquilizing the bodily formation'.
Vimalaramsi describes tranquilizing the bodily formation as recognizing and letting go of craving, manifested as tension or tightness in the head.
Has anyone else noticed that the Buddha never used the those terms (upper lip, abdomen, nostril tip.)? Does anyone else just use the method taught in the suttras which seems to be more of "understanding" what the breath is doing (long, short, etc.) And the tranquilizing the bodily formation is often not talked about?
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my suggestion is to avoid getting caught up in the words used because theoretically what bhante has said is incorrect but what he has practically said is correct
true, the buddha did not use the words abdomen, nostril tip or upper lip but he did not use the word "bodily formation" either
the buddha used the word "body conditioner" (kaya sankhara), which is the breath
the buddha said 'tranquilizing the breath'.
however, if Bhante taught his students to tranquilize the breath, due to their lack of subtle skill, they would be straining their minds & not relaxing or letting go of craving
Bhante has taught here with skilful means, namely, tranquilise the body by letting go of craving and the tension & tightness in the head
the buddha taught four things associated with the breath, namely:
1. understanding what the breath is doing - when it is long
2. understanding what the breath is doing - when it is short
3. experiencing how the breath conditions or effects the body [see footnote]
4. tranquilising the breath
to end, i have explained to you exactly what the buddha taught but now this may be more complicated
my recommendation is to simply listen to Bhante Vimalaramsi & try practise what he is instructing
kind regards
dd
Yep. I have found that his instructions "to let go, relax and continue" is helpful in practice. It has helped me deal with building up pressure around my eyes while meditating. But other that there isn't much more he says really
I disagree with you - You SHOULD listen to what the buddha said -Exactly! Kaya Sankhara is translated as Bodily Formation. I don't know where you get "Conditioner". Bhikkhu Bodhi changed most of references in the Majjhima Nikaya from "Body of Breath" which is wrong to just body in later editions. He says it was his teachers desire to put that in but he agrees that it is not right to just "Tranquilize the Breath" but rather RELAX the entire body as the Sutta says. No other teachers actually really stress this yet it is there. This IS an active meditation in the sense you are actively Relaxing Tensions in your body-especially in your head. When you add this relax step it Turbo Charges your practice as others have found. Please just try it - I didn't believe it until I tried it and wow - I got calm fast. Here is another Youtube where he explains this process.
Youtube Relax Step by Bhante Vimalaramsi
Good luck... Aaron.
Your statement is not only BOLD but incorrect. Please take care with your karma. You are referring to what the translator said rather than what the Buddha said.
The body conditioner or fabricator is the breath. It is stated in MN 44, as I quoted. You need to read what the Buddha said. I will repeat for you.
Similarly, the vaci sankhara is not the verbal fabrication but the verbal fabricator. I will quote for you.
If you cannot follow the above logic of cause & effect (iddappaccayata) then understanding Buddhism will be tough for you.
Best wishes
I will now post a series of questions for you, that are posted elsewhere.
The sutta (MN 44) also states perception & feeling are the mental formation (citta sankhara), along with the kaya sankhara (body formation) and the vaci sankhara (verbal formation).
This seems a little strange because the Buddha did not say perception & feeling are karma.
The body can perform karma, speech can perform karma & the mind can perform karma but perception & feeling cannot perform karma nor are they karma.
For example, intention is karma, craving is karma, thought is karma but not perception & feeling.
Also, feeling is an aggregate unto itself & perception is an aggegate unto itself. Also, citta or sankhara khanda is an aggregate unto itself.
For example, in satipatthana, vedananupassana and cittanupassana are two distinct things, described as follows:
My questions.
In the quotes above & the quotes below, which do you regard as the mental formation?
Perception & feeling or passion, aversion & delusion?
Perception & feeling or the thinking & complication?
Perception & feeling or the delight, clinging & infatuation?
Which are the causes & which are the effects?
Which is the fabricator or conditioner and which is the resultant fabrication or condition?
:smilec:
Bhikkhu Bodhi is a renowned scholar but not a renowned meditation master.
I already quoted the Buddha from the Pali but you are not listening.
The Buddha said the breathing in & out is a body amongst bodies.
The Buddha used the term "sabbakaya". Sabba means "all", as in the phrases "sabbe dhamma anatta" "all things are not-self" and "sabbe satta sukhita hontu" - "may all beings be happy".
Sabba does not mean "whole".
The Buddha said "experiencing all bodies", which means experience the breath and the physical body together and the cause & effect of how they interrelate with eachother.
Your mind is brainwashed. :eek2:
It is not possible to relax the body directly.
One relaxes the mind which in turn relaxes the breath which in turn relaxes the body.
The body is just physical matter. It is the quality of the mental formations and the breath formations in the body that cause it to be stressed and conversely relaxed.
Compare it to a balloon. The balloon is just physical matter but it is the amount of air in the balloon that causes the balloon to be either stressed or relaxed.
Where did I criticise the method?
I originally said the theory is incorrect but the practise is correct.
Your mind (not "I") may have got calm fast but it is not seeing clearly.
If you can free your mind of craving (and forget about the body), it will be TURBO CHARGER MACH II
The sutta does not say this.
However, regarding reality, when the breath relaxes the body relaxes.
One cannot relax the breath without relaxing the body. How silly?
The two are interrelated. It is like saying one can stop breathing but continue to live.
Tell me. Where in the following quote does the Buddha say to relax the body?
Bhante Vimalaramsi is aiming to have the listener relax their mind, to free it from craving.
So he offers a broader object rather than a narrow object.
Can't you see?
His means is skilful but his theory is all wrong (like your post David at Dhammasukha.org).
:smilec:
I am mind boggled that you dismiss Bhikkhu Bodhi and say that he can't translate and is clueless and we should listen to the words of the Buddha. Unfortunately the Buddha is not here but the Suttas are here and Bhikkhu Bodhi is an excellent translator of Pali and I don't think there is anyone better. If there is I would suspect he would want to know so he can train with him. I do understand you are very versed in Pali and would ask a little patience in this explanation.
I think we are really talking about the same thing -Its just that you are translating this differently. My teacher - Not Guru please. is a MahaThera monk who has meditated with all of the great burmese masters and was told they had nothing left to teach him and that he had attained what ever there was to attain (Nibbana). He said "No, that wasn't it" so he went back to the Suttas and has come up with this new interpretation of the teachings. Now -he himself is actually working with several Pitakachariya expert monks a new translation of the Majjhima Nikaya. While he thinks BB is a good translator he believes he is translating based on the commentaries and Bhante V says to throw out the Vissuhdi Magga and only use the Suttas. The Jhanas are real but they are different than what is taught in Burma and basically everywhere else. They are a Tranquil Wisdom Jhana or Sama dhi Tranquil Wisdom jhana and you are aware of your body in this space. They have the same characteristics as the absorption jhanas but don't take 10 years to achieve -in fact they can be done fairly quickly and my self and others have verified this to be correct .
So I don't really need to go back and re-read the sutta and try to re-translate it as it does make sense in the way that Bhante Vimalaramsi is now teaching it. It works! All 8 jhanas are attainable just as described in the book. In fact the Buddha actually said the teachings were "Immediately Effective" . That doesn't mean 10 years of practice but he said in as little as 7 days you can experience them and people do have this result.
I do understand that this is not in accordance with most teachers out there - I am ex-Vipassana of 20 yrs or so and did many retreats including 3 mo retreats- so yes I understand how someone would think this is crazy and doesn't make sense and it took me 3 months of doubt and asking questions of Bhante to even try it. But I did and it works as he describes.
Much metta
David
Discussion aside, I'd like to hear more about the body producing a reaction with each thought that arises in the mind. Are there any videos where he discusses this further?
Bhante does discuss the idea of tension manifesting with each thought in most other talks.
He explains this as part of the Dependent Origination Process
The important links of the 12 are as follows which he shows as the key to the thoughts:
Contact: You see, hear, have a thought, body feeling
Feeling: You experience a feeling -either pleasant or unpleasant or neutral with that sight, thought , etc
Craving: Then based on the feeling Craving arises in the form of "I Like it! or I don't like it"
Clinging: Then the mind starts the story about why you like it or dislike it. "I really like Ice Cream because I my folks used to give it to me when I did something good - and so on
Habitual Tendencies: What you do when you have this type of thought process--go get ice cream , or tell people about your favorite place to get it
Birth: You then go to the ice cream shop
Sorrow, Lamentation, Grief, Despair: You have the ice cream and its all gone... Or you spilled it on your shirt
Death: End of this process
So the tension arises at the CRAVING link. The mind leaps out at the object and you take this as a personal process. Actually its just tension or tightness conditioned from the past. But this is the beginning of this thought process and it is constantly happening all day long as you like or dislike objects that arise.
The key is Let go and relax the tension and tightness surrounding that Feeling or thought that you might have arise.
For example Depression is a very strong Feeling that arises BUT there is the next step where you (Likely) Don't like that feeling and have all these stories about why your are depressed.
The key is to let go at Craving and then the rest of the links do not arise and this is the end of Samsara as the Buddha taught it. You must let go of the tension -thoughts. At first you see the thoughts -after awhile you only see the tension and you let that go.
Here is a link to a dependent origination 5min fun video where Bhante explains this process. Youtube on Dependent Origination
Metta
David
Vipassana is not a technique, as taught by the so-called "Burmese masters".
Vipassana is the natural arising of insight, just like the mind naturally sees the moving (impermanence) of a tree branch moving in the wind.
The technique is right mindfulness & right concentration, placing the mind in a condition that promotes the natural arising of insight (vipassana).
Vipassana is not a technique.
The so-called Burmese masters have not right to misappropriate this word and use it to label their clumsy & rigid techniques.
"Tightening up" is attachment.
Pain comes at aging & death.
:smilec:
The "I" does not crave. Rather than the "I" is born of craving.
:smilec:
The mind produces a reaction that flows into the body and can be felt in the body.
Reactions are mind produced rather than body produced.
Kind regards
A gross craving is sexual craving. This arises due to psycho-biology rather than due to the "I".
Clinging is either infatuation or the thing pertaining to "self". Clinging is the small "I", the first "I".
The story is becoming (bhava). The habitual tendency is becoming.
Indeed. Birth is karma. Birth is the "ice cream lover" or "hungry ghost" being born. Birth is acquiring the object.
Death comes before sorrow, lamentation, grief, despair. The ice-cream is eaten quickly, it is gone and one has no money. One wishes more but cannot obtain more. This is death & from death comes sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, despair.
An urge arises at the CRAVING link.
The tension arises at the ATTACHMENT link. In the First Noble Truth, the Buddha said "attachment to the five aggregates is dukkha".
The Buddha did not say craving is dukkha.
The mind starts to leap out at craving. The personal process begins at attachment, develops at becoming and reaches maturity at birth.
It can be compared to having a baby. The lust is craving. The sexual intercourse is attachment. The pregnancy is becoming. And the birth is birth.
It has nothing to do with the past. It occurs in the present.
OK.
The first key is to prevent the occuring of that tightness via mindfulness & clear comprehension at sense contact.
The second key is to let it go if it has not been prevented via mindfulness & clear comprehension.
He describes the craving as "I like that mind". And tightening up in the head is a physical manifestation of craving.
Then the mind focuses intently upon the chocolate, fixated upon it. This fixation or tightening is attachment. The obsession & holding on is attachment, fueled by craving.
Or there is a "tightening" in-between, which is will or intention born of thought. This is intention.
But as soon as the "I" arises, that "I" is attachment. The "I" is not craving. The "I" does not crave.
When the mind thinks "I want it", "I like it", attachment has already occurred.
So when Bhante states: "tightening up in the head is a physical manifestation of craving"...sure...there is craving there. There is always craving in attachment. The tightening is fueled by craving but the tightening itself is attachment.
Dependent origination is depicted artistically as the Wheel Of Life.
Craving is thirst. Attachment is grasping tightly on the object, not letting it go.
In the quote below, the Buddha did not invoke the "I" until becoming.
From bottom to top: (1) craving or thirst; (2) attachment or tight grasping; and (3) becoming.
Food for thought on meditation in general:)
Hi Learned Audience, to practice the 'Samadhi of Specific Mode' is to make it a rule to be straightforward on all occasions - no matter whether we are walking, standing, sitting or reclining. The Vimalakirti Nirdesa Sutra says, "Straightforwardness is the holy place, the Pure Land." Don't let your mind be crooked and practice straightforwardness with your lips only. We should practice straightforwardness and should not attach ourselves to anything.
People under delusion believe obstinately in Dharmalaksana (things and form) and so they are stubborn in having their own way of interpreting the 'Samadhi of Specific Mode', which they define as 'sitting quietly and continuously without letting any idea arise in the mind'. Such an interpretation would rank us with inanimate objects, and is a stumbling block to the right Path which must be kept open. Should we free our mind from attachment to all 'things', the Path becomes clear; otherwise, we put
ourselves under restraint. If that interpretation 'sitting quietly and continuously, etc.' be correct, why on one occasion was Sariputra reprimanded by Vimalakirti for sitting quietly in the wood? Learned Audience, some teachers of meditation instruct their disciples to keep a watch on their mind for tranquility, so that it will cease from activity.
Henceforth the disciples give up all exertion of mind. Ignorant persons become insane from having too much confidence in such instruction. Such cases are not rare, and it is a great mistake to teach others to do this.
Your mind appears to not understand exactly what these things are.
When food taste sweet or pleasant, that is feeling. When there is food poisoning and acute abdomenal pain, that pain is feeling.
When you ask: "Please pass the salt", there is perception.
When your mind read words or sutra, there is perception.
Well I am not, considering the fact that Bhikku Bodhi is interpreting birth in the DO as birth from a mother's womb and kamma of this life will ripen in the next life etc
Where do you see that? Check MN38 where Dependent Origination is translated as the mental process which occurs which is 12 links long. Physical Birth and death are NOT Dependent Origination. D.O. can happen many times a second.
In fact the Buddha only said there was "rebirth". Which means on a moment by moment basis. Physical death is just an even but not D.O. as the buddha explained. In the meditation Bhante V is asking the meditator to try to see this on a moment by moment basis only.
Metta
David
Thank you for pointing out this error on BB's part.:eek: Now I realize Bhante V also explains that THIS idea of extending over 3 lifetimes is from the commentaries and has nothing to do with the Suttas. Bhikkhu Bodhi is still somewhat influenced by the commentarial work of BuddhaGhosa. That being said I would still go directly to the Suttas as translated by him for how D.O. works as 12 links as explained in the MN38 Sutta on D.O.
David
I was not talking about the Buddha, I was talking about Bhikku Bodhi. Did you read my comment before answering it
Yes in a comment to DD I did say that I believe Bhikkhu Bodhi to be wrong about D.O. extending over 3 lifetimes. However lets lay that aside and go to the Buddha's words as TRANSLATED by BB. Posting the commentary from Majjhima Nikaya may make the point that BB stated this fact but I am not interested BB opinion but the Buddha's words as translated by BB. Bhante Vimalaramsi has had several discussions with BB and they agree to disagree on some areas of the teachings. BB is following the usual commentarial Burmese understanding.