My main Issue

jgarsman

If we desire not to desire we are desiring. To want to stop suffering causes this noble truth to be very confusing. I'm having trouble with the Four Noble Truths because of this issue. I really need help here. Thanks.

GuyC

Hi Jgarsman,

A little bit of craving to want to be enlightened is a "good" type of craving. But don't get too obsessed about it. Just focus on doing the best you can now to practice the Noble Eightfold Path, that way you are putting in place the appropriate causes and conditions for enlightenment to occur.

You also might find the Bhikkhuni Sutta useful.

...

"'This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? There is the case, sister, where a monk hears, 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now.' The thought occurs to him, 'I hope that I, too, will — through the ending of the fermentations — enter & remain in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for myself in the here & now.' Then, at a later time, he abandons craving, having relied on craving. 'This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said.

...

"Bhikkhuni Sutta: The Nun" (AN 4.159), translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Access to Insight, June 7, 2009, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.159.than.html.

With Metta,

Guy

PietroPumokin

THROW a ball up in the air, and catch it with the top of your head.

Swanny

Pietro Pumokin wrote: »

THROW a ball up in the air, and catch it with the top of your head.

What the hell are you babbling about?

Vekin

It's either a koan, which I never got, or he's saying that you use craving to start off, and then let go of craving after practice has started itself?

PietroPumokin

Jason

jgarsman wrote: »

If we desire not to desire we are desiring. To want to stop suffering causes this noble truth to be very confusing. I'm having trouble with the Four Noble Truths because of this issue. I really need help here. Thanks.

In Buddhist psychology, desire can be skillful (kusala) and unskillful (akusala). The desire for happiness, especially "long-term welfare and happiness," is actually an important part of the Buddhist path. Are you familiar with the four bases of power (iddhipada)? The four qualities listed in the bases of power are desire, persistence, intent and discrimination. In Wings to Awakening, Thanissaro Bhikkhu points to this passage:

There is the case where a monk develops the base of power endowed with concentration founded on desire & the fabrications of exertion, thinking, 'This desire of mine will be neither overly sluggish nor overly active, neither inwardly restricted nor outwardly scattered.' (Similarly with concentration founded on persistence, intent, and discrimination.)

He goes on to explain that, "This passage shows that the problem lies not in the desire, effort, intent or discrimination, but in the fact that these qualities can be unskillfully applied or improperly tuned to their task."

If we take a look at the exchange between Ananda and the brahmin Unnabha in SN 51.15, for example, we can see that the attainment of the goal is indeed achieved through desire, even though paradoxically, the goal is said to be the abandoning of desire. That's because at the end of the path desire, as well as the other three bases of power, subside on their own. As Ananda explains at the end of SN 51.15:

He earlier had the desire for the attainment of arahantship, and when he atained arahantship, the corresponding desire subsided. He earlier had aroused energy for the attainment of arahantship, and when he attained arahantship, the corresponding energy subsided. He earlier had made up his mind to attain arahantship, and when he attained arahantship, the corresponding resolution subsided. He earlier had made an investigation for the attainment of arahantship, and when he attained arahantship, the corresponding investigation subsided. (Bodhi)

Nirvana

jgarsman wrote: »

If we desire not to desire we are desiring...

Sounds like sophistry to me. It's merely putting the issue in a "clever" way to make the worser argument seem better. For a follower of the Noble Eightfold Path, it's not a matter of merely craving for non-graspingness, but a matter of trying to loose oneself from the vicious cycle of clinging to things that in the end cannot and will not satisfy. The Buddhist dharma is one of taking hold of a different outlook, not of desiring anything harder to catch than what's right before our eyes.

Sophistry can seem clever, but is never truly instructive or didactically skillful. My teacher used to teach that it's OK personally to subscribe to dogmas, but not OK to be dogmatic about those doctrines or notions with others. Now, I actually encountered certain bozos who said he was being dogmatic in that assertion. What utter nonsense — for one teaching the ultimate relativity of ideas to be accused of being an absolutist in this regard.

Reality does not consist of ideas nor does it persist in them. Reality is one thing and our ideas about it reflect our needs and the uses we make of the materials that that reality may offer. In the end, we may be living in the most bountiful of gardens, but if our thinking persists in the mud we may only see ugliness and poverty and cold.

Transmetaphysical

Nirvana wrote: »

Sounds like sophistry to me. It's merely putting the issue in a "clever" way to make the worser argument seem better. For a follower of the Noble Eightfold Path, it's not a matter of merely craving for non-graspingness, but a matter of trying to loose oneself from the vicious cycle of clinging to things that in the end cannot and will not satisfy. The Buddhist dharma is one of taking hold of a different outlook, not of desiring anything harder to catch than what's right before our eyes.

Sophistry can seem clever, but is never truly instructive or didactically skillful. My teacher used to teach that it's OK personally to subscribe to dogmas, but not OK to be dogmatic about those doctrines or notions with others. Now, I actually encountered certain bozos who said he was being dogmatic in that assertion. What utter nonsense — for one teaching the ultimate relativity of ideas to be accused of being an absolutist in this regard.

Reality does not consist of ideas nor does it persist in them. Reality is one thing and our ideas about it reflect our needs and the uses we make of the materials that that reality may offer. In the end, we may be living in the most bountiful of gardens, but if our thinking persists in the mud we may only see ugliness and poverty and cold.

I was just going to point that out as well. You beat me to it.


.

questionful

Why is desire bad?

It's not inherently bad. It's WORLDLY desires that the buddha said to abandon. The reason is because everything in the world goes through the cycle of birth and death, and is for that reason impermanent, causes suffering, unworthy and such.

What is wrong with desiring to be free of suffering? makes a lot of sense to me.

I'll edit in something i read in a dhamma talk by ajahn chah when i get a chance.

GuyC

"Ajahn Chah quotes are the answer to everything"

- Ajahn Chah

Just kidding, he didn't actually say that, but I would agree if he did.

Swanny

GuyC wrote: »

"Ajahn Chah quotes are the answer to everything"

- Ajahn Chah

Just kidding, he didn't actually say that, but I would agree if he did.

Hahahaha... I love that!

jgarsman

Thank you very much for all of the insight. All was very valuable and ha helped me immensely. I really appreciate it.