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Reincarnation Question.
In Buddhsim do you have an infinite number of reincarnations?
Did Buddha have an infinite number of reincarnations?
Source?
Did Buddha have an infinite number of reincarnations?
Source?
0
Comments
Tibetan Buddhism has the concept of reincarnation, but this is only for illuminated and elevated lamas, such as His Holiness the Dalai Lama.
The reincarnated Lama is not a carbon copy but in essence a being chosen by the now deceased Lama to 'inherit' his qualities of elevated consciousness.
There are no "infinite reincarnations". When one reaches Nibbana, the re-birth stops.
Unless you happen to be a Bhodisattva who refuses to exit the cycle of rebirth in order to help all sentient beings understand suffering and bring it to an end.
Nothing is 'infinite'.
But, you do get an infinite number of re-births to reach Nibbana then it stops, correct?
Is there a limit then?
Edite DONE!!!
please note however - Nibbana is not a place. it's a state of essence....There is no 'place' to go to.
Yes, but there can only be two outcome, correct? Either it is infinite or it has a limit.
Does it have either one?
Don't mean to sound harsh just want to understand.
Once you reach Enlightenment, you attain nibbana, and as such, cease to be re-born. The Buddha has not been re-born. Hence, his re-births were not infinite, were they?
But if I may, either it is infinite or it is finite. If it is infinite then it cannot stop. If it is finite then what is that set number? Why is it limited? Isn't it unfair for it to be limited? How is this limited count determined?
Where does fairness come into it?
Unfair on whom?
Who's the deciding factor as to whether it's fair or not?
What the hell are you talking about?
by your working on your negative kamma and eliminating it by overwhelming it with good Kamma...
What's your point?
Why do you absolutely need to know?
The answer is, you don't.
It gets to a point where asking such questions is useless.
Frankly, I just think you're trying to mess about, and if that's your fun, then I'm glad it amuses you.
But the most important life you could possibly concentrate on, is the one you have now. The last one brought you here, and this one may - or may not - take you onto the next one.
Who knows for sure?
Just do your best now to do the best you can do. Now.
Does this help?
I am asking questions to get a better understanding, but you aren't really answering the questions so what you do now is state it suddenly doesn't matter.
If it is infinite then it cannot stop. If it is finite there is a limit. So I ask what is that set limit in this philosophy?
I am saying it's unfair, because there is a limitation and if you surpass the limitation then what happens, you lose?
Dear p3rfect,
The answer has been given to you already, but for clarities sake, let me break it down;
Is rebirth infinate (without end)? No
Is rebirth finite (with end)? Yes
How many life times until rebirth ends? It all depends on YOU
Is there a limit? Yes, but it depends on YOU
Does that help?
PS, not all buddhists believe in literal rebirth.
You seem to be falling into extremes. Either:
A) there is a set number of births
And want someone to explain how this is possible, or how it works. Neither of those are true, so what you ask is impossible.
The truth is that you have the ability to influence the direction of your journey, no matter how many lifetimes you have. With focused thinking and right action, you can come to discover the answer to this question for yourself.
With warmth,
Matt
You are not seeing the definition of the word infinite or finite. You are only seeing end and no end. It's more then that, it is a set number.
Infinite is no end and it just continues forever.
Finite means it does have an end and by have an end there is a limited number. What is that limited number?
The answer has not been given.
The answer has been given. You seem to be ignoring it.
What is the limited number of lives? It depends on YOU
I can't make it any more clear than that.
There is no-one determining how many lives one should live, other than yourself. You are in control and only you can brake the cycle.
Nios.
There is two options Nios; infinite or finite.
Infinite means it goes on forever. A limitless number.
Finite means it ends and there is a LIMITED NUMBER. So what is that NUMBER!!!!!!
It depends on the person how many re-births it takes to reach Nirvana, yes. But, if we do not have an infinite amount of Re-births there is a LIMITATION in the quantity. What is that limited number?
Read what aMatt said, he gets it. It seems you actually don't.
See you get it, but you cannot make the claim that my statement is impossible to answer when you yourself to have an actual reference to say it's impossible.
It's either infinite or finite. Stating I will figure it out one day on my own is more of a cop-out argument is it not?
Because neither is appropriate by your definitions. You might as well ask "Is rebirth yellow or blue?" then.
It continues until there are no longer conditions for it to continue, like everything (anicca). It will go on until then. How long that takes is up to you. There is no "oh sorry, you've had 100 rebirths, sucks to be you, now you're screwed!"
The answer has been given but you're not listening.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/infinite
Finite: Having bounds/limited/imperminante
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/finite
There is no set number p3rfect.
Yes, for the final time; Yes, it is finite, and the number depends on you.
Nios.
"1 a : having definite or definable limits"
Finite implies that it is limited, yes so I ask what is the limitation, what is the definable limit? What is the set number of re-births? Re-births can be counted
If it's whenever that person reach's enlightment then it's infinite until they reach it, but then thats a contradiction, because it's not infinite.
Read above post.
"Is rebirth yellow or blue?"
That example does not compare nor work.
It's simple logic.
Read above in responce to Nios infinite/finite definition.
You create your own limits. So again, how many rebirths depend on you. There is no set number.
If this still isn't clear, then there is nothing more I can say and I will step out of this thread.
Let me just say this. we have all - whether you agree or not - answered your questions.
Rebirth is finite because it has a limitation, due to a person exhausting all their negative Kamma. Once that is done, a person reaches Nibbana and is no longer re-born.
The period of time - and different re-births you experience - are down to how well, and how quickly you can eliminate your negative kamma, yourself.
Remember that according to Buddhist re-birth premise, you don't always achieve re-birth in a human realm.
If you now persist in pursuing this line, I can only conclude three things:
(1) you have an obsessive-compulsive disorder which means that due to your obsession with the definition of finite/infinite, you can't honestly comprehend what we're telling you;
or
(2) You really, really don't get it, in which case there is little point in us continuing to try to educate you in the way you have requested;
or
(3) You're a troll.
I'm leaning more towards 3, with a possible topping of 2.
Thanks for sharing.
if you have anything else to add, we can continue. if you're going to go over old ground, I'll knock this on the head.
By your definitions, answer this: is this life finite or infinite? If finite, how many years will we all live?
You're asking the same thing and it can't be answered with your definitions of the words. Neither adjective is applicable. So drop them and read the numerous identical answers you've now been given instead.
Re-birth is of course different then those words, but that doesn't exclude it.
Let me show you number 4 which shows your arragonce.
4.) Since I don't agree with you, you state that I am incorrect and don't understand; that I lack intellect. Which is arragont to say and insulting.
Ok, let me make it simple for everyone.
Infinite: Something that is limitless, endless, boundless, goes on forever.
Finite: The opposite of Infinite. Something that is limited, a set number or formula, having definite or Definable limits. Has an end.
Now, if we have a infinite amount of re-birth's to eliminate negative energy to reach Nirvana. It means that the re-births do not end. It cannot end, that is infinite. If it ends it is not infinite thus such re-births cannot be so.
Now, if re-births are Finite; something we can quantify into saying that it is finite. In order for something to be FINITE we would have to be able to DEFINE it as such. Can you give me a reference that says re-births are limited?
Also, if re-births are limited it means there is a definable set periameter in which we can show that says it is limited. Such as a NUMBER!
Whether it depends on the person to finish there re-births this still applies to whether it is infinite re-births or finite re-births.
This is a basic definition and logic of these words. How is this hard to understand?
Do you guys admit there is a form of a paradox here?
In Mahayana Buddhism, it is held that all sentient beings will attain nirvana. So for any given sentient being, the series of rebirths will eventually end. However, the count of rebirths that will be experienced by any given sentient being is not known.
I think if anyone could precisely answer your question.. they would be the richest man in the world, because that knowledge would be priceless and all would come from far and wide to pay you to share your story on how you cracked open the existence of life, the universe, and everything.
My point is: You are demanding answers. Through that demand, you put forward that someone or a collective of someones must obviously know the answers, for certain.
Which out of us should know this for sure, exactly... and be able to put forth objective evidence for or against it? Not I, at least. What evidence do I have on me to say what is a rebirth, how many are there, and so on? What evidence have any of us?
You ask questions which have no answers. Not because they do not exist, but because I don't see how any of us could know. You may as well ask how precisely the universe began, and why. Not only do we not know.. but how important is it, really?
You're alive now. We're all alive now.
Why is that not most important? How does knowing what comes next further any of us now? This is addressed to myself as well, I'm not excluded. I'm not saying I don't have the same questions as you
But, I also recognize the need to let go of those questions at some point (preferably now); and, I recognize that I'm not very good at doing so.
It looks to my like you are trying to disprove either rebirth or buddhism in general, but it's falling flat on it's face.
I'm beginning to agree with Fede here. :nonono:
Nios.
The answer will not be infinite, nor can you say today what that number will be. Just because the number is unknown, does not make in infinite. You logic is directly and absolutely faulty.
*Hugs*,
Matt
To clarify a question.
You don't understand.
Re-births is not infinite, if it was it would not end thus it is finite.
Yes, it depends on the person when it will end, but none the less if it isn't INFINITE there has to be a limiter otherwise an individual can re-birth how much as he wants.
Your example fails.
Ok, true, true.
It was a nice discussion though. I am satisfied.
Thanks for the responces.
The limiter is a person's individual relationship with clinging, which continues to bind them into birth. The limiter isn't a prescribed number. Your mind seems like it is trying to collapse concepts into such limited ascriptions.
For instance:
How many days will I live?
Is neither infinite, nor a set number. Because the life I live exists in a complex system of variables, it is a finite but unknown number. Even if a person continues rebirth until the sun goes supernova or the universe ends, their journey is finite.
Also:
How many times will I hit myself in the head with this hammer until I stop?
Is neither infinite, nor a set number. Because this action requires me to consistently bring pain unto myself, at some point it can be imagined I will figure out what I am doing and simply stop (ie, learn to cease my clinging and stop incarnating). If I remain consistently ignorant then the hammer and my skull will break eventually (universe or sun ceasing to exists) and I will stop hitting myself on the head. Either outcome is finite, neither outcome is a set number.
With warmth,
Matt
I completely understand what you are saying, but think of it this way.
Re-births definable quantinty in it being finite is that it ends, but the question remains. What if one does not ever eliminate all the negative energy or someone who does not choose too? Does it end?
With human life, yes it is finite, because we all die, but we cannot exceed our lifespan for extreme long periods of time unlike re-birth.
There none-the-less has to be a limiter otherwise the individuals who never fully deplete the negative energy will have infinite re-births and those do not exist, correct?
I answered this explicitly with this statement:
"If I remain consistently ignorant then the hammer and my skull will break eventually (universe or sun ceasing to exists) and I will stop hitting myself on the head. Either outcome is finite, neither outcome is a set number."
Although if you're examining it subjectively, then it boils down to faith. For instance, if I am in a community of clingers, I am likely to continue to cling. If the rest of my community is full of detached, loving kindness, the chance that I will be socialized into ignorant clinging is much more slight. Eventually, a natural gravity will awaken even the most stubborn of soul.
The innovation of mindfulness and the path out of suffering is something that might take some time to unfold, but it is part of the human social evolution that will undoubtedly penetrate even the most deeply entrenched mind... on a long enough time line. The real question is always, where do you fit in, here and now?
With warmth,
Matt
The outline of this, is this; It is infinite until it ends. There is no sent number for it can go on forever until the faze is complete.
Finite must have a limiter otherwise it is not finite. Sun, humans have a life spectancy, what is this?
Until you realize you can take a pair of scissors to the bastard.
:crazy:
No there is no paradox here merely poor understanding of maths.
First a finite interval does not have to be limited by a number. It can also be limited by a conditon such as
endpoint: life when nirvana is reached.
startpoint: beginning of samsara.
And a finite interval can include a infinite number of values. Such as an interval of rational numbers or irrational numbers.
And who is to say that the enumeration of rebirths containes only natural numbers?
Cheers
Victor
I would love to see those scissors!
Infinitity is a mathematical concept and in philosophy is termed potential infinite (it is only in the mind). Actual infinite in reality does not exist. One way to understand this is to take a 24 hour period (between noon yesterday and noon today). Divide this 24 hours by 2 and for every divisible time bucket continue to sub divide them. You will then have a potential infinite sequence of time segments between the 2 noons. If you were to traverse time between noon yesterday and noon today you will never reach today because you will have to traverse infinity. But are you going to argue that you have not reached noon (in reality) when the clock strikes twelve?
I think the question that maybe you should be asking (being presumptious) is not infinite but eternal. However eternal is the absence of time. This may only come about when the universe comes to an end as the universe is all time and space. Your limiter therefore is the end of the universe. Whether another one replaces it is another story.
We'll draw a conclusion eventually, but the entertainment value is fascinating.....
I thought the poster was asking a legit question which wasn't being addressed. If my understanding is correct, the limiter (circuit breaker) the poster is looking for is the end of the universe. I posted a smilar question just yesterday (I think) and that was the answer given to me.
This has been said many times in many different ways on this thread and on Dhammawheel forum.
Nios
We've tried many analogies... Will my möbius strip one hold up?! This is so suspenseful...
If it is entertainment you want I could volenteer to start a nonsensical thread about something else...?
I also do the jigg occasionally. Maybe post a clip?
/Victor
I said it was entertaining.
It's kept a few of us transfixed because it seems that finally some have understood, in one way or another, what it is that Perfect was trying to convey.
And it's still imponderable.....
I was just joking.
/Victor
I was rather hoping to see a jig danced on a website....
now that would have been a first.....
I wouldn't start a nonsense thread though.
You know how bolshy some Moderators can get when people get flippant.
Similarly, if someone says the round of rebirths is finite, that does not impose any upper bound on the number of rebirths a being will experience prior to nirvana. (The number of rebirths is a counting number.)
(By the way, all of this is implicitly presupposing the conventional Buddhist cosmology in which rebirth actually means some kind of transmigration from life to life, which I don't accept.)
Not necessarily. For one thing, it depends on what you mean by "rebirth." In Buddhism, the closest term is punabhava, literally "again becoming," which is a predominately mental process that's unique to each individual. But however you interpret this term, it can be said that it's infinite as long as the conditions for it's continuation are present, and finite if those conditions cease. In Buddhism, this principle is called this/that conditionality (idappaccayata), the simplest formulation being:
From the arising of this comes the arising of that.
When this isn't, that isn't.
From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.
Moreover, it's difficult to determine the exact limit of this process on an individual basis because those limits aren't predetermined and depend upon a myriad of factors, the most important being an individual's present actions (kamma). As far as I can see, there's nothing inherently contradictory about this unless you also take a position that effectively denies the efficiency of causation in relation to duration.
I don't think this is correct. Since the Buddhist conception of causality is non-linear, we don't have to exhaust all our negative kamma, which is essentially the doctrine of the Jains (see MN 101), we simply have to eliminate the production of kamma in the present.
Theoretically, if we assume for the moment that all of the teachings on rebirth are true, then it'd be statistically impossible to exhaust all of the "negative kamma" due to the fact that a beginning point to samsara isn't evident (SN 15.3).
The Buddha's teachings, on the other hand, state that to gain release from samsara, one must put an end to all types of kamma, not just the negative. That's why the noble eightfold path is called "the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma" (SN 35.145).
Yes, and I think this is an important point to remember.
Samsara, literally "wandering on," is the potential for the arising of human [mental] suffering, while nibbana, literally, "extinguishing," is the cessation of that potential. As Thanissaro Bhikkhu puts it, "Samsara is a process of creating places, even whole worlds, (this is called becoming) and then wandering through them (this is called birth). Nirvana is the end of this process." Nirvana is "realized only when the mind stops defining itself in terms of place ... it's realized through unestablished consciousness."