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How is nirvana permanent?
Hi all,
if a person achieves nirvana while he/she is still alive, how is that realization a permanent thing? Of course, when a person dies, he/she would no longer be reborn, but I'm interested in the pre-death experience.
I can think of times when I've learned something, and then forgot it later. Or had a vivid experience which later fades.
What is it about realizing nirvana that transcends other experiences, that are vulnerable to forgetfulness and relapse?
Thanks!
if a person achieves nirvana while he/she is still alive, how is that realization a permanent thing? Of course, when a person dies, he/she would no longer be reborn, but I'm interested in the pre-death experience.
I can think of times when I've learned something, and then forgot it later. Or had a vivid experience which later fades.
What is it about realizing nirvana that transcends other experiences, that are vulnerable to forgetfulness and relapse?
Thanks!
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Comments
However, for a full realised practitioner, what leads to Nirvana is the same as our knowledge of fire.
Since we were young children, our knowledge of fire has been such that we do not place our hand in it. We have an unchanging knowledge or wisdom that fire burns.
For a Buddha, their knowledge of the fires of greed, hatred & delusion is the same.
Kind regards
.
It is a collection of all forms (which are all illusory).
.
This is excellent, thank you for that.
Samsara is the cycle of death and rebirth, but it is also the world as we know it. The world is a collection of forms.
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They practice and continue to live an awakened life for a few years. Then one day they are in an accident and suffer a brain injury, or perhaps they develop dimentia in some form. Is the cycle of samsara still ended or will the karma produced by behavior post brain illness cause rebirth?
well.... people with nirvana don't have brains!!!
I'm not so sure.
I think it might apply to things without form. You know, things like time, self, concepts. Concepts are only there when there is someone to visualize/create/bring it into existence.
My two cents is that nirvana is impermanent in a similar manner. The thing is, when someone 'experiences' nirvana, the person who would be experiencing it no longer exists. So it's neither permanent nor impermanent?
Don't you hate paradoxes?
Thank you I"ll be here all week!
And totally hilarious!!
:smilec:
After karma is stilled, there is nothing more that disrupts you from holding the approach of compassion, loving kindness... nothing to uproot your equanimity. Because you're outside the creation/formation aspect of samsara, you're not creating the phantoms in your garden that beat you with bats (ie projections that force you to experience dukkha)
You still interact. You breathe. You eat. You die. You're just not getting forced around by feelings or thoughts anymore.
With warmth,
Matt
Wow, this was unexpected and cool; I didn't know people thought of nirvana in these different ways.
This was very helpful for me, thank you:
I don't know how you delivered such a sick joke in such a cute way, but congrats.
I will simply refer you to our good friend Jason.
(Source: Samaññaphala Sutta)
Beautiful
If Nirvana is contingent,
Then it too is impermanent.
Perhaps I miss the point?
namaste
For example, my father suffered with altzheimers the last few years of his life. Now he had not attained nor sought Nirvana, and certainly a few aspects of his personality remained intact, but the vast majority did not and he suffered with some terrible delusions, including one where after hearing of a tragic family murder suicide situation, he fell under the delusion he had killed his daughter. She would go see him to assure him he did no such thing, but usually he didn't recognize her, and for him the pain, sorrow and shame of having committed such an awful crime was real. Thankfully after a few weeks this delusion faded, but was replaced by many other delusions...mostly less painful ones, but delusions none the less.
So having seen first hand how devastating an effect mental illness and or brain injury can have, and given that these things are not something we can predict or even necessarily avoid, it is conceivable a person could attain Nirvana, and then suffer such an illness.
I have my own view on this, but I"m not necessarily all that bright, so I am interested in what others would say.
<non_buddhist_alert>Since you have seen this firsthand, I don't think that you should negate the importance of what you learned from the experience. I doubt that others can answer this question better than you can by looking within.
That said, I think that what you observed was a reflection of reality: A mental illness that has the power of robbing a person of their previously firm grasp of reality; nirvana included. Of course it's just a creeping case of the final diagnosis for all of us: death. But I'm an atheist, so in my mind, the nirvana attained in this world is forever lost (in that individual soul at least) at the instant of expiry.</non_buddhist_alert>
nothing:D
sorri!
for one in mental illness, these things do not grow out of nowhere, they reside in the subconscious of the mind, or the subconscious of the earth, they organically grow out of things, out of our karma
an awakened mind in nirvana knows the delicate workings of karma and having nirvana seems to in itself be a mark of an extremely healthy, fresh mind. however, you know siddhartha guatama is said to have died by eating poisonous food, so why didnt he avoid it
beats me
but when you come face to face with reality, when reality eats your face, there is no horriblly misfortunate stroke of luck except, in my stupid opinion, very rare ones, because awareness is so powerful
buddha died because he died and he died when he died because he had to die because it was time to die and he died when he died at a very ripe age that was a good age to die
things cant be other than that and what they are and uh uh.... LOL OK I'LL shut up noW HAHAHAHAHAHA
I would like to think realizing nirvana would happen on a deeper level than our usual thought.
Is anyone here a Tibetan Buddhist? I think that perspective distinguishes between gross and subtle minds.
Alzheimer's is on the rise and it's possible that someone with experience caring for older monks who were experienced meditators could give us an idea of what happens when their mental facilities start to go.
no worries
do not afraid of it
well come it
all will be alright
in time
or
on time
I hope what you are asking is will an enlightened being be unenlightened after brain damage yeah?
It's hard to say. Nibbana is the cessation of dukkha caused by mental clinging to the idea of self. Not-self is a realization that happens through direct meditative experience and it is not like a remote memory or behavioral pattern that you tend to forget with time. That direct insight gets hard-coded.
Having said that, if someone totally loses any sense of reality through brain damage then that would apply the same for an arahath. Why would it be any different? An enlightened person does not have the ability to deny or alter nature, stop death and sickness. An enlightened person can develop dimentia if the physical conditions are right for it.
However, those that believe that the mind is something separate from the physical body floating here and there would give you some interesting answers
That's a good bit to quote (What the Buddha Taught is my favourite book on Budddhism). It's important to remember that Nirvana is supposed to be the realisation of Truth, lit. the 'blowing off' of your ignorance.
In response to the idea of somebody attaining a condition of Nirvana before getting a mental illness, I think it's quite scary. But then again the idea of not being yourself because of some terrible illness is scary, because of our own preconceptions about life and our attachment to self. Maybe a truly Enlightened person wouldn't mind the idea of developing a mental illness.
I still don't like the idea though! :-/
I think the question is whether a person who is enlightened has the potential to lose his sense of reality due to severe brain damage. What do you think?
It has nothing to do with wanting suffering in Nirvana. It is simply this:
The First Noble Truth is a statement of fact, and no state of awareness will negate the physical reality of it. Enlightened people get sick and die just as do the unenlightened.
What makes this one tricky is that the organ that is impared in this case also happens to play a vital role in our perception of reality.
In the case of my Father (and I am not personalizing this for any emotional reason, simply due to the stark reality of witnessing it first hand) his perception of reality, his memories, what he knew, who he was, and even reality in the present moment was utterly destroyed. There is no question in my mind had he attained Nirvana, he would have no memory or knowledge of it in the final months of his life.
So really my question is more for those who believe in the cycle of birth and death (and I'm not trying to turn this into a debate on that)...if Nirvana ends that cycle...what about Nirvana lost? (understanding that suchness, true reality, whatever you want to call it IS, and IS regardless of if we are aware of it or not...Nirvana would be the awareness of absolute reality, and it is the fragility of awareness in a physical body I am addressing here.
I'm not trying to put any belief down, but wanting to put what I think is a difficult, and not often discussed part of our reality as physical beings, out there to see how people feel about it from their own Buddhist perspective.
Jodo Shinshu has a very optimistic teaching on this if taken literally.
Basically if a person has entrusted to Amida Buddha, attaining Birth in the Pure Land is assured, and thus attaining Nirvana. This is true even should a person subsequent to putting faith in Amida, fall into delusion. In fact Amida's compassion is specifically for those unable to attain Nirvana themselves. In the Tannisho...a record of Shinran's sayings it says "If a good person attains Birth in the Pure Land, how much more so a bad person!" This is because a bad person is the special subject of Amida's compassion...much like a parent gives more compassion to a child who is ill, than one who is in good health.
So in Jodo Shinshu we do not worry that we are able to say the nembutsu on our death bed, or if we remain of sound mind. We can entrust ourselves to Amida right now in the present moment, and our future enlightenment is assured.
Is this a literal truth?
I don't tend to take any of it literally myself, so I'm not too sure. I see Amida as name and form symbolizing True reality and the Pure Land as a metaphor for Nirvana. We are all grasped by true reality regardless of our awareness...a wave that thinks it is only a wave is still ocean water even if it doesn't know it. Even a broken up wave.
If we can glimpse some awareness of true reality, we will likely experience less suffering, but either way, we are still a part of true reality...it is our true nature regardless of if we know it or not.
From Shinran's "Shoshinge":
Although I too am within Amida's grasp,
Passions obstruct my eyes and I cannot see the light;
Nevertheless, great compassion is untiring and illumines me always.
But I certainly don't have the answers...if ever there was a Bombu (foolish being) you are right now reading the words of one!
I also am well aware there are few people of any Pure Land tradition here, and so the whole idea of Amida is rejected by many of you, and I completely respect that.
I think my favorite answer in this thread was that of upekka :cool:
I think there are so few buddhas that this problem doesn't usually come up. And no I don't equate awareness to a brain because I don't experience a brain. Nor do I think a brain is separate from awareness. Awareness is all space without limit?
A person who has attained Nibbana goes through sickness and death. When an enlightened person's brain gets severely damaged he or she can lose all sense of reality. If the physical conditions are right an enlightened person can develop dimentia just like he or she can develop cancer. Do you agree with this?
nirvana isn't yama mara http://books.google.com/books?id=sBRYTFo_CQMC&pg=PT99&lpg=PT99&dq=yama+mara+pema+chodron&source=bl&ots=ptgwYeaV08&sig=c2fslg15p0HpF9fjwiolBmH6Gyg&hl=en&ei=L2_yS6PGLozqNaGP0P0N&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
sickness and death are illusory in the sense that they are impermanent, nonself, and unsatisfactory. The self is permanent self and satisfactory and is untainted by death or sickness. The self is referred to in both the pali canon and mahayana canon by buddha
The 8 consciousness (including 5 skandas) are transformed into 5 factors of enlightenment or something like that.... And thats the self.
Oh yeah they are not created but uncovered when we stop grasping the buddha qualities naturally emerge. They are already here. Thats how when we love someone its not just dust. In the wind. And how we never give up. Even when we committ suicide we are trying to be happy.
Well, sorry for missing the whole point of Buddhism. Either I'm retarded, or that's a very odd use of the word "illusory." :crazy:
It seems strange to me to say that sickness and death are unsatisfactory. Rather, he taught that things which are subject to birth/aging/sickness/death are unsatisfactory when clung to...
...and that's an important distinction that people seem to leave out. It's not an inherent quality of anything. There is nothing unsatisfactory with nibbana because there is no clinging; if there were clinging, one would not have "attained" nibbana.
I do not recall the a permanent self being identified in the Pali Canon, nor do I recall nibanna being referred to as the self. Nibbana is not a thing, it's not an Ultimate Self, it's not a state-of-being or even an experience. It means greed, hatred, and delusion have been extinguished, ignorance has been extinguished, clinging no longer arises... that's it.
In short, I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, but if it is referred to in the Pali Canon then please show me because I am genuinely interested. Thanks. But what I have read is:
1. Impermanance
2. No-SELF
3. Nibbana
As far as I know the first noble Truth is not that Life is an illusion.
I think that is different than how I thought of it before but that is good. The whole point is that nirvana isn't an object of grasping. Since it is not an object of grasping it is not impermanent etc.... That is what unconditioned means.
So we appear to agree..
As far as the self I believe check the dhamapada and you will see the self mentioned. Numerous times in scripture...
Buddha only says the skandas are not the self. He never says there is no self. There is no self that can be grasped. But here we are. No root of anything. But when you don't think about anything everything is still here..
Namo buddha who is self awakened who is peace beginningless
without middle...
Oh this is from our liturgy but I only have the tape and can't type fast enough...
They do say in same lines that mention that the self that the kleshas are realized to be non-self..
I believe those are marks of conditioned phenominen and not seals of a buddhist teaching. Indeed are buddhist teachings unsatisfactory? That wouldn't forbode well. (I did read valtiels of course and I see they only would be when grasped but thats the whole point of the raft metaphor).
As I said Buddha references the self in dhammapada among others though I am not a sutra scholar because I read from my teacher rather than the original source. When I am more experienced at a later time I may read more from primary source.
oops I say nirvana instead of unsatisfactory. sorry for the confusion. I think when condition phenomena are not grasped that is nirvana. And since they are not grasped they are neither coming or going. This could be your impermanence seal. But openness to what arises is always here and it is neither coming or going. Hey if thich can switch a mark of conditioned existence into a dharma seal that why not Jeffrey, oh no I am not a teacher don't quote me. And there is extrinsic emptiness (emptiness of other). Theres your non-self
http://www.abuddhistlibrary.com/Buddhism/G%20-%20TNH/TNH/The%20Three%20Dharma%20Seals/The%20Three%20Dharma%20Seals.htm
from the complete idiots guide to buddhism:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=arEFgUw-4b8C&pg=PA120&lpg=PA120&dq=three+dharma+seals&source=bl&ots=w-c8XJbnrw&sig=YrEW6GUglU6kKapTlM_iS-oTZuU&hl=en&ei=O3LzS6KTM4WosgPe3LD5Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBYQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=three%20dharma%20seals&f=false
the "four Dharma Seals" (I think the fourth is a Tibetan Buddhist idea...I could be wrong)
http://buddhism.about.com/od/basicbuddhistteachings/a/fourseals.htm
Regarding the Dammapada, indeed there are many references to self, but in all cases I can see, it is in terms of developing self-discipline, guarding oneself from foolish people and things like this.
Certainly there is no mention of a permanent self, like a "soul".
It however frequently mentions controlling one's mind, this being necessary for attaining Nibbana. I think there can be no debate that a person could have a strong and controlled mind, and then suffer an accident or illness and no longer have control of their mind.
Science says that energy doesn't die but merely changes form.
If a wave ceases to be a wave nothing is lost...there is still the same amount of water, it is just no longer in the form of a wave. So in that sense the true essence of the wave goes on, but the wave never had a "self"..it was always a temporary manifestation of water, based on causes and conditions.
To the fact that things are impermanent is not troubling nor unsatisfactory. Only clinging to things, wishing them to be permanent makes it unsatisfactory. The things themselves are fine in their changing nature, it is clinging to the idea of permanence that causes the problem.
Illness will still arise as long as there is a physical body, because any given state of health is impermanent. Not clinging allows us to suffer less or ideally not at all, but it doesn't mean there won't be aging, illness and physical death.
If Nirvana is simply a state of not clinging, and the suttas do say this is the case, then a mind that is not clinging is in a state of Nirvana, and mind that is clinging is not in a state of Nirvana.
A healthy mind may reach this state, but for an unhealthy confused mind, it would seem unlikely.
A mind that was once healthy can become unhealthy, therefore is seems reasonable to assume that that once healthy mind may have reached a state of non-clinging, but once unhealthy, may no longer be in that state of non-clinging.
Thus is the nature of change, and it only causes us suffering, if we cling to one state over another.
Anyway that is my understanding right now.
You might be interested in the differences in how buddhism is presented from a rangtong view of emptiness versus a shentong. It seems to come up again and again for me and it is nice that I know where this comes from. Often my teacher has contradicted published buddhist sources, I think she even criticized how the Da Lai Lama was presenting a view one time when I e-mailed her. And she in turn is criticized occasionally how she presents a view.
I would feel a bit lost to assume my teacher is wrong because of dudes on the internet or other teachers. Because always there is someone who will criticize. Instead I will study with her until I do not believe her teaching is liberating or else I just know I must find another direction. That is to say when I know for myself rather than on opinion of authority. And my aproach is to study my current teacher until I feel I know what she is teaching. Before looking up 10 teachings stemming from buddha all defining terms differently and try to learn them all at once! Thats just a way to become confused.
Nonetheless in a limited way to raise my consciousness and others of the differences I enjoy these discussions. Though I am not prepared to debate them at this time.
Feel sad to learnt of your father illness and may your father had a speedy recovery.
According to my understanding, never heard of any great laybuddhist and venerables having brain injury leading into mental disorder, needless to mention should one attain Nirvana.
The main concern now is your father, it would be very helpful to sincerely recite sutra everyday to your father. And dedicate all merits to him, also sow blessings for him as well.
I am myself not of any Tibetan tradition, and if I am honest, with respect it is not a tradition that holds any particular interest for me. I have studied some Zen, and a little Theravada, but the tradition I actually follow is Jodo Shinshu (Japanese Pure Land).
I agree that trying to follow too many traditions can be counter productive.
To Wilfred, thank you very much for your concern.
My father passed on two years ago. In my tradition we do not recite the Nembutsu for our fathers or mothers or anyone, because it is not our self-power at work, and in the words of Shinran we have all been each others mothers, fathers and relatives in the past. We simply recite with gratitude for Amida's infinite compassion which surrounds all beings....certainly including my father.
Anyway, I doubt there is much more I can contribute to this thread, but it has been interesting and I thank all who took the time to post in response to my question within this thread.
To me one of the great lessons my fathers illness brought forward was to be mindful and appreciate this moment, and the time you have with loved ones.
In this way his altzheimers was a bodhisattva, bringing me a deep teaching on impermanence, and helping me to deepen my compassion for others.
_/|\_