to read or know or learn before ordaining

mettafou

what do we need to read or know or learn before ordaining in a thai forest monastery? for example what teachings or skills outside this context are worth studying first?

Jason

Not much, really. Of course, it'd be helpful to study Pali and have some familiarity with Pali chanting, as well as some experience with meditation, but one will generally learn a lot of that in the training period before their full ordination, which can often be anywhere from a couple of months to a year.

DhammaDhatu

best to free the mind of superstition

Pali chanting...no worries...any parrot can learn it

yo so svakato bhagavato dhammo...sandhitiko, akaliko, ehipassiko, opaniyiko, paccatung veditabo vinyuhi

mettafou

that's what i'm feeling... but at the same time, there are a lot of skills and stratagies that should help. yoga, qi gong, pranayama, teachings outside the pali canon, carpentry, thai. do you agree?

DhammaDhatu

mettafou wrote: »

what do we need to read or know or learn before ordaining in a thai forest monastery?

if you are ordaining in Thailand then learn some Thai because there is a close relationship with the local community

if you are ordaining in Australia then possibly a course in evangelism

DhammaDhatu

mettafou wrote: »

yoga, qi gong, pranayama, teachings outside the pali canon, carpentry, thai. do you agree?

to be frank...not yoga, qi gong, pranayama

a monk cannot practise tai chi unless hiding somewhere because under the Vinaya, at least tai chi, is dancing

qi gong may be a little close

i recall a western monk who was disrobed because he insisted in practising tai chi

but yoga, qi gong, pranayama make the breathing & mind unnatural

i personally recommend avoiding these things because anapanasati is not these things nor do they help anapanasati (unless they are moderate light forms)

carpentry can help the community but in the monastery, you will be put to work in some form

thai forest tradition...practise bowing...they do alot of bowing...both to buddha statues & to the ajahns...

if one cannot humble oneself to bow...watch out!

conformity to the community (sangha) is intrinstic

mettafou

any idea to what extent yoga asanas are forbidden?

DhammaDhatu

mettafou wrote: »

any idea to what extent yoga asanas are forbidden?

well...you could probably only perform them in your kuti (hut) and not outdoors

remember, outdoors, you wear robes

i would simply ask the ajahn of the monastery before you leave or simply ask ajahn brahm or sujato

keep in mind, in Thailand, the monks are examples of stillness, of restraint

AllanS

I was just about too write a good long advice, when i realized..... I'm not ordained, so wtf do I know about ordination. If you want to know about ordination, talk to an ordained, get some advice, and maybe even go stay at a monastery for a couple of months to get a "feel" for it.
I don't think you should expect to get the best advice about ordination, from lay people, who haven't ordained themselves.

Much love

Allan

Valtiel

I don't think you should expect to get the best advice about ordination, from lay people, who haven't ordained themselves.

True. Although I believe DD has experience and his posts are from firsthand experience. Not sure where mettafou is from though, because the experience DD describes is very different from monastic life in the west. There are some ordained members here, though, such as Palzang, who can give you another perspective.

Still, I would certainly suggest going on a retreat or something for a few days, then weeks, then months, to get an idea of what it's actually like. Many people seem to have a romanticized idea of what monastic life is like, think it's easy, and/or think it's a nice vacation getaway without any responsibilities. One person I know, for example, who was sick of life and wanted to run away from it, and who absolutely disagreed with the [misconceptions] of the Buddha's teachings he had heard and thinks meditation is stupid/useless/about non-thinking, and that scholastic knowledge of anatta and the like should be sufficient, thought that running off and ordaining would be a smart idea. :cool:

mettafou

To what extent is it our responsibility to educate ourselves in things like philosophy, science, art, religion, train physically etc. or to have a degree before requesting ordination? I've done 3 years of college, 3 years of practice, visited monasteries, spent a lot of time on the goenka compound. what is tacitly or otherwise expected of monks or prerequisite to requesting naga precepts & ordination? Or does it depend on where you go? any other general conditions that come to mind? i'll ask a bhante... any other thots are appreciated.

DhammaDhatu

monastic life is very routine

wake, chant, meditate, alms round, sweep monastery/work, breakfast, personal time/work, lunch if working hard, aftertoon whatever, chanting, meditation, sleep

you will be trained about relationship between monk & laypeople

nice to educate yourself a little bit, generally, informally...not good to be an unlearned monk

but really...all you need to know is found in the Buddha's teachings...

this includes dhamma for monks and dhamma for laypeople

they main things is not being a rebel, conforming, understanding community status (rank) and placing trust in the ajahns

best wishes

mettafou

they main things is not being a rebel, conforming, understanding community status (rank) and placing trust in the ajahns

do you see any danger in this? if so, any ways to overcome it?

*opens up the xiaojing
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=ZGVmYXVsdGRvbWFpbnxwaGlsb3NvcGh5d2l0aHRob3J8Z3g6NjhmMTI5YzU2ZTZmNjYxMA

upekka

mettafou wrote: »

do you see any danger in this? if so, any ways to overcome it?

ask the help of family or friends
tell them to make your room your prison
or
make a self imposed prison of your own room
tell them to lock it from outside
no food, no light, but water
in your side
no reading, no radio, no tv, no phone, no communication with outside
meditate (before do any of the above, learn few meditation techqneqe from a friend or monk)

see how long you can be there without fighting for food etc.

see your own reaction
you will know how to owercome your own reaction:p

mettafou

eh? thanks :P

Nios

mettafou,

To be pretty honest and quite frank, it seems that you are mixing religions and religious practices. From what it seems you are interested in, the Thai Forest tradition is probably not the best course of action. From what I understand, conformity is very important for them, not only on a social/cultural level but also in following the vinaya (monastic code) in which, you'd most likely not be able to do any of the things you have shown an interest in. As has been said already, you won't be able to practice any of those things like qi gong, the arts etc.
What you have described an interest in sounds more like shaolin, which is pretty relaxed these days (no offence to any shaolin students here)
Why the Thai forest tradition specifically?

Nios.

mettafou

apparently many modern monks practice yoga, etc. to the effect of maintaining energy, health, etc. my question was,

To what extent is it our responsibility to educate ourselves in things like philosophy, science, art, religion, train physically etc. or to have a degree before requesting ordination?

So the training that should be done before hand is the question i'm interested in. my experience at Abhayagiri is that of openness to other traditions and philosophies inasmuch as they are in line w/ a teaching or useful metaphorically. thai forest tradition holds closest to the suttas in practices and perspectives, which i prefer to the commentaries/abhidharma that many Burmese traditions for example follow. I'm open to other traditions as well. Wat Pah Nanachat is a good place to learn Vinaya, and the basics. Abhayagiri is seemingly open to many practices within therevada buddhism. I've heard of Thai forest monasteries even open to stated practices beyond Therevada. To quote Ajahn Amaro, "meditation is meditation." Somehow you seem to see that I am mixing practices and perspectives. The buddha taught to the proclivities of his students; different metaphors or persuasions of teaching reach different people. To hear the words of the dhamma in the voices of different masters, etc. and to seek dhamma and guidance from within, etc. can reach different proclivities. My experience of Thai forest teachers, and libraries acknowledges this...

Nios

I think, what is told to us westerners, and what is told to their own people can differ somewhat.
As DD pointed out. Ordaining in the west is more open than ordaining in the east. This may be better for you. But you are still required to follow the rules, and as such, if you want to study anything "extra" you will need the thumbs up by your superiours.
With regards to your question, you shouldn't need to learn anything as you are becoming a monk to learn. The monastic structure is such that you will learn everything you need to live a monastic life, as a monastic.
Have you managed to speak to a monastic yet?

Nios.

mettafou

thanks for yr reply. yeah i've talked with monks. to seek dhamma and guidance from within, etc. on intuitive level is all i really need beyond what information we are limited to. art, philosophy, science, religion are useful for teaching, and keeping a wide perspective; i've heard and benefited from a lot of that already. i'll probably get my fill of schopenhaur and physics, and mahayana, etc. etc. before requesting going forth. i'll probably also condition my body to a much greater extent.

Ordaining in the west is more open than ordaining in the east.

that's useful to know. also note that wat pah nanachat for example has little formal teaching and initiates are asked to learn from mahasi, goenka, et al.

mettafou

What are some other methods, or qualities, in a person, that are integral to succesfully living within the Sangha?

federica

Poverty, Chastity and obedience.
And routine.
And discipline.

Lots and lots of self-discipline.