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conceit isn't uprooted till arahatship, till then it is good to judge people in order to learn from people, learn how to act, and know who to hang around... we should never wish harm though, and until that conceit is uprooted then we should stay humble and learn from everything.
I don't find this to be true. Conceit dissolves when the illusion of separation/competition dissolves. This happens when you cultivate compassion, long before "arahatship".
I feel judging leads to a false view of permanence. When we maintain roots into annica, judging becomes a silly notion... because its trying to apply a permanent quality to a person who is ever transient.
Conceit dissolves when the illusion of separation/competition dissolves.
conceit will always arise and dissolve till arahatship. till then we are developing habits, skills, and equanimity in dealing with it. it helps to realize that the buddha taught a lot more than anicca, anatta, and dukkha, and a big part of the path is developing a strong sense of self, because one's virtue and discipline on any fold of the path must never ebb and flow.
conceit will always arise and dissolve till arahatship. till then we are developing habits, skills, and equanimity in dealing with it. it helps to realize that the buddha taught a lot more than anicca, anatta, and dukkha, and a big part of the path is developing a strong sense of self, because one's virtue and discipline on any fold of the path must never ebb and flow.
This sounds like thinking stuck in subjective morality. Developing a strong sense of self? Really?
The Buddha's path consisted not only of mindfulness, concentration, and insight practices, but also of virtue, beginning with the five precepts. In fact, the precepts constitute the first step in the path. There is a tendency in the West to dismiss the five precepts as Sunday-school rules bound to old cultural norms that no longer apply to our modern society, but this misses the role that the Buddha intended for them: They are part of a course of therapy for wounded minds. In particular, they are aimed at curing two ailments that underlie low self-esteem: regret and denial.
When our actions don't measure up to certain standards of behavior, we either (1) regret the actions or (2) engage in one of two kinds of denial, either (a) denying that our actions did in fact happen or (b) denying that the standards of measurement are really valid. These reactions are like wounds in the mind. Regret is an open wound, tender to the touch, while denial is like hardened, twisted scar tissue around a tender spot. When the mind is wounded in these ways, it can't settle down comfortably in the present, for it finds itself resting on raw, exposed flesh or calcified knots. Even when it's forced to stay in the present, it's there only in a tensed, contorted and partial way, and so the insights it gains tend to be contorted and partial as well. Only if the mind is free of wounds and scars can it be expected to settle down comfortably and freely in the present, and to give rise to undistorted discernment.
This is where the five precepts come in: They are designed to heal these wounds and scars. Healthy self-esteem comes from living up to a set of standards that are practical, clear-cut, humane, and worthy of respect; the five precepts are formulated in such a way that they provide just such a set of standards.
What I hear from you when you say, "I am scared to excel because others will feel inferior to me," is "I am so important that the world will stop and take notice when I excel at something - they will be so struck with awe at my abilities that they will have no choice but feel unworthy."
Hmm, I guess there may be some of that, but it's more to do with if I'm first then someone else has to come last, and that experience may be detrimental to them and one I have no right to effect. I know that doesn't sound logical, but it's a gut reaction.
Just as people, not even as students of Buddha, we all have different strengths and weaknesses. Think about someone who does something that you do that is important to you, but is more experienced and better at it. Does being with them when they do this activity make you feel bad? Do you view the time as an opportunity to learn to do the activity better? Do you just appreciate their ability as beauty, particularly since you know how difficult it is for?
If you view their ability as a learning experience or as a chance to appreciate beauty, isn't it logical that at least one person in the world would have the same thoughts regarding something you excel at?
First, I'd like to say that what you seem to be experiencing is normal for many people. I have heard first hand accountings of that very experience, read many stories of people who arrive at the same kinds of discomfort. Its tough to live that way, and I admire your courage!
Thank you that's very kind to say.
What you described in your post sounds familiar to be honest and I'd not considered codependency before. I might look out for the book. Thank you.
Forgive me onewiththirst and anna, but I'm having trouble understanding what you do not understand. Could you put it in a nutshell? Thanks
It's not that I don't understand, cognitively, that the thoughts / instinctual reactions that I have (including those about the dangers of being better than others) are merely thoughts / reactions / emotions. They are not permanent and they do not neccessarily bear any relation to reality, as they have arisen from the mind.
Perhaps it's because I'm a real newbie to buddhism and to meditation, but despite being an introverted and fairly self-analytical person, I find that I get tripped up by behaviours and emotional reactions that are being followed before I even notice them, let alone understand what's caused them (current triggers or underlying reasons). So, to me, it's difficult to simply let go of the thoughts, because they practically come *after* the reaction/behaviour has started to be played out. By the time any thoughts come to my attention, the body has already reacted.
I think that sustained meditation practice will eventually help this, but it's been made more difficult as it seems that I have instinctively added practice to the list of things to avoid, for the. Of course, now I'm aware of that, I can push.
So, to me, it's difficult to simply let go of the thoughts, because they practically come *after* the reaction/behaviour has started to be played out. By the time any thoughts come to my attention, the body has already reacted.
I know exactly what you mean with this. I experience the exact same thing. Lately I've been able to slow down the process so that the instant reaction and the thought are more in sync, but it's still hard to be mindful and see things before they unfold.
Hmm, I guess there may be some of that, but it's more to do with if I'm first then someone else has to come last, and that experience may be detrimental to them and one I have no right to effect. I know that doesn't sound logical, but it's a gut reaction.
...
Whatever we choose to do with them, we each own our chosen emotional response to things. If you are first and I last, it is my choice whether to feel humble or humbled; appreciative or resentful of your greater talent. For you to decide that you control my emotions by your actions robs me of my own rightful responsibility of my emotional response to your actions. Maybe I need to learn to subdue my pride; by throwing the game and letting me win, you have robbed me of this learning opportunity. Even if I get angry over you being first, that is my choice - not an immutable reaction to your action.
If your desire to excel stems from wanting to rub my nose in your betterness then step back and examine your motives (thoughts) for rightness before acting. Other than that, I think you should feel free to excel whenever you are able to as you would if there were no one else in the game. Part of me wants to write, "Feel free to act as skillfully as you can," but I think that these words have a reserved meaning here that I might not properly understand yet.
Comments
I don't find this to be true. Conceit dissolves when the illusion of separation/competition dissolves. This happens when you cultivate compassion, long before "arahatship".
I feel judging leads to a false view of permanence. When we maintain roots into annica, judging becomes a silly notion... because its trying to apply a permanent quality to a person who is ever transient.
This sounds like thinking stuck in subjective morality. Developing a strong sense of self? Really?
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/precepts.html
Thank you
Hmm, I guess there may be some of that, but it's more to do with if I'm first then someone else has to come last, and that experience may be detrimental to them and one I have no right to effect. I know that doesn't sound logical, but it's a gut reaction.
Thank you, that's quite helpful.
Thank you that's very kind to say.
What you described in your post sounds familiar to be honest and I'd not considered codependency before. I might look out for the book. Thank you.
It's not that I don't understand, cognitively, that the thoughts / instinctual reactions that I have (including those about the dangers of being better than others) are merely thoughts / reactions / emotions. They are not permanent and they do not neccessarily bear any relation to reality, as they have arisen from the mind.
Perhaps it's because I'm a real newbie to buddhism and to meditation, but despite being an introverted and fairly self-analytical person, I find that I get tripped up by behaviours and emotional reactions that are being followed before I even notice them, let alone understand what's caused them (current triggers or underlying reasons). So, to me, it's difficult to simply let go of the thoughts, because they practically come *after* the reaction/behaviour has started to be played out. By the time any thoughts come to my attention, the body has already reacted.
I think that sustained meditation practice will eventually help this, but it's been made more difficult as it seems that I have instinctively added practice to the list of things to avoid, for the. Of course, now I'm aware of that, I can push.
I know exactly what you mean with this. I experience the exact same thing. Lately I've been able to slow down the process so that the instant reaction and the thought are more in sync, but it's still hard to be mindful and see things before they unfold.
Whatever we choose to do with them, we each own our chosen emotional response to things. If you are first and I last, it is my choice whether to feel humble or humbled; appreciative or resentful of your greater talent. For you to decide that you control my emotions by your actions robs me of my own rightful responsibility of my emotional response to your actions. Maybe I need to learn to subdue my pride; by throwing the game and letting me win, you have robbed me of this learning opportunity. Even if I get angry over you being first, that is my choice - not an immutable reaction to your action.
If your desire to excel stems from wanting to rub my nose in your betterness then step back and examine your motives (thoughts) for rightness before acting. Other than that, I think you should feel free to excel whenever you are able to as you would if there were no one else in the game. Part of me wants to write, "Feel free to act as skillfully as you can," but I think that these words have a reserved meaning here that I might not properly understand yet.