Western Monasticism: Important? Useless? Or Both?

dennis60

from an article at....
http://bitterrootbadger.wordpress.com/2010/03/03/western-monasticism-ii-important-useless-or-both/

I have never heard this viewpoint before, in the bold letters below....







“Here’s Robert Thurman, the first Westerner to take monastic ordination in a Tibetan Buddhist lineage (he did disrobe after three years, but went on to produce Uma Thurman, so we forgive him), from Buddhdharma’s excellent panel discussion:

Monasticism is critical for the future of Buddhism in America. There is a tendency in American Buddhism not to think so, and to argue that monasticism was appropriate in Asian society but not in America, here most practitioners are bound to be lay practitioners. The idea that we don’t really need monasticism here is very wrong. The source of it is an unwitting Protestant ethic that is unwilling to have people pursuing a life path that doesn’t involve producing things. But in fact, one of our problems is that we overproduce things and it would be good to have a lot of people who are not producing things.
“The monastic institution was a brilliant sociological invention of Shakyamuni Buddha—something distinct from forest ascetics, who are completely out in the jungle so to speak, as he had been, and distinct from the city priests, who operate at a temple in a town. The monastics were located a short distance from town, so they could come in to collect alms and food and maintain a connection with the populace. They were also far enough away to have some retreat from the hustle and bustle, yet not be utterly isolated.
“What Ayya Tathaaloka was saying about it being easy to be ordained is very important. Monasticism is a society transforming institution that is the only institutional antidote in human history to militarism, the bad habit of most human societies. For Buddhism to really take hold in the West, society has to be slowly changed in such a way that it will supportwell as in the Himalayas—it’s been extremely important to preserve the monastic sangha. It’s taken as a representation of the third jewel, the visible manifestation of the Aryan sangha, meaning the sangha of the noble ones. Now as Buddhism comes to the West, there are many challenges that make the existence of a monastic sangha difficult here, but it is a necessity if Buddhism is to flourish in America.”

Jarry

I once had a notion that becoming a monastic would be the "lazy way" in that I wouldn't be a part of society, but the fact that we do in fact over produce things made me change my point of view.

RenGalskap

I agree that monasteries provide a place where people can study and practice things that are, let's face it, subversive to widely held social values, while at the same time remaining engaged in society. Other than that, I don't buy Thurman's arguments. To me the main value of monasteries is that they are created by people who want to be monastics, and monasteries allow monastics to do things that they think are important, regardless of whether anyone else thinks they are important.

dennis60

I do not think that entering a monastery and becoming a monk gives one "enlightenment. I don't even think that monks practice "better" than lay people. The one thing that it does do, like the article said, is give one an option about participating in the militarism of the country. I was a conscientious objector during the Viet Nam war. So while reading the above article, it was a shocking statement for me to stumble upon. It also can be viewed as the monastery is an institution that is separate from the state's business. Of course this is one of the premises of the US constitution to keep separate church and state. Im not saying i joined a monastery to get out of participating in the war activities of the US, but it is a welcome attribute that goes with living in a monastery....

Mick

I think having a type of Buddhism orientated to western culture and more western mindset is in itself not a bad thing. However, we have to be mindful when adapting Buddhism to the western culture we don’t lose the fundamentals of the Buddhist path.

Buddhism is only a relatively new religion in the western world and is something we are still learning about. If we become in too much of a hurry to create a distinctly western sangha and lay community we may overlook and lose many subtle things, things we may mistakenly believe to be just cultural baggage from the east.
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Western Buddhism should evolve slowly with each step being tested and verified. If not, perhaps, Western Buddhism may evolve into an empty shell, Buddhist in appearance but with little content that can genuinely lead to liberation.

truthseeker

Mick, :uphand: well said.

As usual, Thurman is right on the money. While monasticism wouldn't be an option for me personally, at least not right now, I recognise that the sangha is absolutely vital for the survival of Buddhism. Western monasticism is important and it should be developed and supported by the Western lay community, not just the Asian Buddhist missions.

Cheers, Thomas

GuyC

truthseeker wrote: »

Mick, :uphand: well said.

Agreed.

RichardH

This same OP started a lot of back and forth at a Zen forum. There was a refusal, on the part of monastics, to acknowledge that living in a monastery provides any advantage for practice. There was a lot of "monk or lay, what is the difference, who-am-I" non-dual bullsh*t that basically undercut the point of having a monastic system at all.

Those in monasteries live in a micro-culture that has one purpose and one purpose only. We lay people are more at risk of dispersion in a culture designed for dispersion, and we need to support monastics so that they can lead us by example. It doesn't mean they are more "Enlightened" or have greater capacities, but they are IMO older brothers/sisters in practice that are indispensable.

Fenrir

Many excellent points raised above Dudes... monasticism is essential for the survival of the sangha as founded by Buddha. I personally think that it means much more to Westerners who choose this path than to many Eastern monks who come by it out of social obligation or are 'sent' to the sangha as children. Western folk CHOOSE this method and that is a very important point. Not to say that many monks in Buddhist lands do not choose this but generally it is not viewed in the same way. Remember it is called the 'going forth' from the house life and this is a monumentous decision for the people concerned if undertaken with sincerity.

NamelessRiver

Here’s Robert Thurman, the first Westerner to take monastic ordination in a Tibetan Buddhist lineage (he did disrobe after three years, but went on to produce Uma Thurman, so we forgive him)

Seriously?! Uma Thurman?! :-0

Anyway, I disagree with him. A tendency to think monasticism is not critical? I have never heard of such a thing.

The cause for the lack of monks and monasteries is the lack of Buddhists and thus the lack of financial support, in my opinion. Even though we live a society focused on production there is space for monasticism to develop. It's not like you see people bashing benedictine monks and labeling them unproductive.

Monasticism is a society transforming institution that is the only institutional antidote in human history to militarism

Again, I disagree. Monks were involved in some military disputes or supporting some military campaigns (like the Shaolin and the Sohei).

For Buddhism to really take hold in the West, society has to be slowly changed in such a way that it will supportwell as in the Himalayas

It seems a bit too much. How well do people support Buddhism in the Himalayas anyway? The whole idea of an idyllic setting with the happiest people on earth kissing the feet of their holy lamas is WAY too romantic.

Besides, our western society does support religion in general.

caz

It is important for the ordained to Demonstrate pure morale Discipline wherever they are they give the lay practitoner something to look up to, Without the ordained we would be in trouble.

mugzy

I feel that Western monastics are important, and certainly not useless. I support both Eastern and Western monasteries, and am very happy to donate financially to help them sustain their practice.

Here's an article from Sravasti Abbey Abess Venerable Bhikshuni Thubten Chodron - Why We Need Monastics. There is also a section on the site about monastic life.