The Fool

thickpaper

I was just reading the Dharmapada section on the Fool and I remember the fool is mentioned in a fair few other places in the suttas.

What I don't get is is the fool just like "a naughty person", ie a mischief maker as some sections say. Or is the fool a more general archetype about ignorance?

I'd be interested in anyone else's thoughts on this.

namaste

TreeLuvr87

My knowledge about The Fool comes from tarot. The Fool is a card that can represent foolishness or ignorance, however it usually shows up to remind us that wherever we're at, we're at the starting point for the rest of our lives. Our futures are unknown, undetermined, and full of possibilities. In tarot, The Fool contains all the qualities of every other card in the deck.

So I consider it to be an archetype about unlimited possibilities.

Glow

In the notes to his translation, Gil Fronsdal writes that the word translated as "fool" (bala) originally meant a young child who has not yet learned to speak. It is sometimes translated as "the childish." It's figurative language so I'm not sure whether it's useful to think of the fool in terms of a single archetype (and, of course, certainly not the Western stock character of a "fool" like the one in Shakespearean plays). Generally, one can make out the semantic thrust of what a particular verse is attempting to convey through context.

thickpaper

Glow wrote: »

In the notes to his translation, Gil Fronsdal writes that the word translated as "fool" (bala) originally meant a young child who has not yet learned to speak. It is sometimes translated as "the childish." It's figurative language so I'm not sure whether it's useful to think of the fool in terms of a single archetype (and, of course, certainly not the Western stock character of a "fool" like the one in Shakespearean plays). Generally, one can make out the semantic thrust of what a particular verse is attempting to convey through context.

That's a wise and informative answer, thank you.

So do you think as "childish" it means spiritually?


namaste

Glow

Yes, childish spiritually rather than just general childishness, I would think. Going on Verse 63, it sounds like a person who is not only ignorant, but willfully ignorant without any desire to become informed. (The Buddha had discourses with many people who behaved generally childishly or were simply ignorant of the Dhamma. He was willing to talk with them, however, because they were reasonable.) Another way to think about it, using the image of a young child, is someone who doesn't know what they don't know.

thickpaper

Glow wrote: »

Yes, childish spiritually rather than just general childishness, I would think. Going on Verse 63, it sounds like a person who is not only ignorant, but willfully ignorant without any desire to become informed. (The Buddha had discourses with many people who behaved generally childishly or were simply ignorant of the Dhamma. He was willing to talk with them, however, because they were reasonable.) Another way to think about it, using the image of a young child, is someone who doesn't know what they don't know.

Yes, that seems clearer. The difference between the fool and the unenlightened then is the desire to become enlightened, at some level at least? Maybe the fool doesn't know or care that enlightenment is possible?

namaste

aMatt

thickpaper wrote: »

Maybe the fool doesn't know or care

... Or thinks they are enlightened already. Doesn't know (or refuses to see) what they don't know. Whereas the unenlightened simply are not yet enlightened, if they are open to learn about their ignorance they are not bala.

Jeffrey

I wonder if it is a learning device ie skillful means. Nobody 'wants' to be a fool. So you read what the fool is doing and then you think hmmm I don't want to be like the fool.

Thats at the level I see it.

kaya

thickpaper wrote: »

I was just reading the Dharmapada section on the Fool and I remember the fool is mentioned in a fair few other places in the suttas.

What I don't get is is the fool just like "a naughty person", ie a mischief maker as some sections say. Or is the fool a more general archetype about ignorance?

I'd be interested in anyone else's thoughts on this.

namaste

From my readings it is more the latter.