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Long rambling from a young meditator.
In your opinion, is it possible for drugs to have a positive effect on ones meditation expierence? I am specifacally refer to marijuana. It seems true to me that even if there were any potential positive affects, nothing real and lasting could be attained by only meditating when intoxicated under any substance. However, i have noticed that when i smoke about a joint (.5 grams) of marijuana i feel as though the the 'gap' between my thoughts be comes much longer and i am expeirencing the true clarity and peace of mind that one has when one is in his or her natural mindstate. I am aware of every sensation that my body feels and the mind that percieves it. I view the world in a wholey objective manner. my hear is filled with compassion. After smoking one joint i was able to meditate for three hours alone in a field, felt extremely peaceful, and i was able to transition in to several different techniques smoothley. I did not smoke any more that day, and the rest of my day was spent in what i must refer to as the natural mindstate, utterly free from anysort of wordly attachment. During subsequent days, with out the aid of marijuana i am still able to attain the same things, however it is much more diffucult, and there are several more negative thoughts to deal with. Which in a way i suppose is a positive thing, becuase as ive read, even negative, and tweaky emotions can me focus points for meditation.
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I am sure other people will expound on why drugs are bad and why you shouldn't do them and I would probably agree with a lot of what they have to say...but having been a stoner myself I know that's not what I wanted to hear when I asked such questions. What I wanted to hear was probably for someone to say "yeah, go for it man, marijuana is not really a drug anyway, you know, its pretty harmless really, blah blah blah" - but experience shows that this is a big steaming pile of BS.
Been there, done that and the short answer is "no". But I don't know if that's necessarily what you want to hear.
As for the long answer, if you want me to I can go into it for you.
With Metta,
Guy
Nobody's telling you to not do this, but what I am telling you is that if you choose to follow a Buddhist path, and adhere to Buddhist principles, taking recreational drugs for the helluvit, goes against the fifth precept.
The buzz they give is artificial and temporary.
What you believe they are doing for you, and what they are actually doing TO you are entirely different things.
As Moderator on this forum I will tell you now, that advocacy, promotion and encouragement to take drugs cannot be permitted or tolerated.
And no, not just because I disagree with it.
Therefore, if you're looking for input on experience, and advice on whether to continue, that's fine.
If however, you feel disposed towards persisting, and maintaining that what you do is not only commendable but that others might like to try it, then I'm afraid you'll receive short shrift from me.
Just to let you know.
OK?
Well said. This was something I only discovered once I quit.
thank you for your responses. i was asking this question with complete objectivity in that i wasnt looking for any specifac response. the reason i think that it is viable is because when i smoke i dont get 'stoned' and im not a stoner. I smoke a very small joint that is barely noticable. i dont expierence feelings of euphoria or anything else like that. I simply have no anxious nasua, and the gap between my thoughts is much longer. I attribute these things to two known facts about marijuana: it relieves nasua, and affects ones shorterm memory. i feel as though because my anxiety, that manifests in my stomach, is subdued, and my thoughts are forgotton because of the pot, i am able to focus and be much more aware.
I used to use low doses of marijuana with a similar reasoning as you. What I found was that it was only hiding the unsettled qualities of my mind, not really helping overcoming them. No matter how you shake it, meditation with a sober mind is the way to uproot the patterns that are causing the anxiety and restlessness in the first place.
I have seen it "snap someone awake" before, but really, after you're awake to life it is best to rid yourself of the intoxicants and get into a stable practice. With some effort, the effects of stillness of thought you experienced on cannabis will be available 24/7 with a much better, stable approach.
With warmth,
Matt
The goal is to learn to focus your mind ... the difficulty of that task is the true value of the training. In other words, it is how you get there that matters.
I think it might even increase the pressure inside, making it more difficult when you stop.
Good luck,
Matt
I have thought much on this precept. Its a weird one because it isn't clear what it encompases. I can see why getting drunk would prevent progress along the path, but would once a year be OK? Is the path so fragile and was the Buddha so against any fun?
I am sure many of us get an often joyous and jubilant impression of the Buddha when we read about his life.
But enough about beer....:p
As a general principle what is this precept about?
Consider this if you will:
Medassist
Imagine a drug called "Medassist" that one day may be discovered to improve concentration and single point focus, especially for Vipisanna mediation.
People take the drug and get no effect or side effects. The only discernible difference is that it allows people to learn single point insight meditation much quicker. Weeks rather than years.
Once there the drug is no longer effected. It is non addictive, no contra indications, etc
This pill could allow millions of people reach to enlightenment who wouldn't have before...
Some questions to ponder:
Would Medassist be a good thing?
Would we welcome it or lable it as a gross intoxicant?
What would the Buddha do about Medassist?
Aside from gut reactions are there any reasons in harmony with Dharma that might show it unwholesome?
And dirtydan I would say until medassist arrives my answer to your question is an almost definate no. if there was, those hippies would have found it:P
namaste
As a Romanian rapper said in one of his songs " Do not combine shrooms with biblical studies" (I've translated it...so this is how it would sound in English).
There is no use meditating when you are high. Where would the practice be, the results of the practice?
If you want to attain peace, you should not look into pills, meds, joints, and so on. Peace is something that you must build by yourself.
No drug can make you attain a long-lasting peace. I know that I would sound like your parents, but you'll get a nasty addiction to marijuana induced "peace", and want more marijuana...
The conclusion is, that nothing good can be obtained by taking drugs to aid you obtain mental peace.
No you will simply be confusing an altered and toxic state with being able to have a clear and liberated mind.
Meditation like most things is learned skill and so it need practice and time to develop, and the use of any toxics will only delay that process.
I'm not being prudish or anything like that, just realistic, and over time I have found that my need for any type of intoxicant has withered away to nothing, Now if I want to feel buzzed, I breath deeply and enjoy the moment and the nature around me, it turns out that it's the best buzz I ever had!
none of your potential words could .
i think the only way to find clarity on the issue is to meditate on it.
Just something to consider. Good luck.
Yes, this has been my experience.
If you consider self-inflicted suffering to be "fun" - then yes, the Buddha was against "fun". Our minds are the most fragile thing in the world. The Buddha used a simile to demonstrate how fragile these minds of ours are. Surgeons in ancient India would practice with their scalpel on a lotus. They had to be able to cut through one layer of lotus petals without leaving even the tiniest mark on the next layer. Compared to the petals on a lotus, our mind is much more delicate.
Considering this is what we use to walk the Eightfold Path I would say it is very important to be careful with every choice we make which is going to affect our minds even if it might seem like it affects it only in a "small" way.
A very important point, one which cannot be over-emphasised. Please learn from other's mistakes and quit while you are still young. Be humble enough to admit that you might not know what the hell you are doing and that other people who have been through what you are going through (which, without sugar-coating it is just drug-induced delusion) and do the right thing for your mind.
I might sound like a bit of a puritan but I sincerely wish you all the best and some of us actually do know what we're talking about.
No I don't consider self inflicted suffering Fun. I mean, eg, going out with your friends and having some drinks and a laugh and that kind of thing.
I don't see any dharmic reasons why the Buddha would be against those occasional, non-extreme, non-compulsive episodes of fun.
namaste
Have you seen what 'fun' some of these people who drink (just a few social drinks) end up having?
The whole point is to be Mindful.
Everything the Buddha taught, was taught with good reason.
He didn't say things to be a killjoy, He said them, because he knew - probably from first-hand experience - what almighty havoc that 'just one little drink' can wreak.
Now - it's a proven biological and scientific fact that alcohol - even just one beer - can affect the mind. Even if we completely believe, and are totally and utterly convinced that it hasn't affecte us at all.
so - just be mindful of that.
Yes. And lets suppose the next day everyone says they had a "fantastic night" what is the downside in that, every once in a while?
Surely not. Surely at least one would need to be intoxicated, which most wouldn't be from one little drink?
Most things effect the mind, that doesn't necessarily mean it is a bad effect.
I am not sure where this hardline temperance comes from, though we can see it clearly in other relisgions too.
When I apply the kalama suttra directive to the issue (this is your advise) I dont see where the absolutism comes from. I do, as said, completely see how intoxication prevents mindfullness, that is not the point I raise.
namaste
Drinking clouds the mind. Many Buddhists spend a lot of time and effort in clearing the mind... would you take a dump on your freshly cleaned carpet?
Intoxication is not "fun" any more than being ignorant is "fun". It might feel fun, but it is intoxication, and it is deluded and cloudy.
With warmth,
Matt
I have never suggested it didn't, nor that a clouded, or drunk, mind is not an obvious and signifigant hindrance to the Noble path.
My point was about occasional dalliances with drink and hedonistic fun. I see no reason in dharma why one might not, say, drink freely on their Birthday, even if they consider their life utterly dedicated to the path.
We must be weary of wrapping the points of the dharma in senses of authority the Buddha probably didn't possess. This becomes especially pertinent with this issue.
No you are very wrong there: If somone has fun and they think they have or had fun then simply, they had fun.
The question is not is fun possible without dharma, of course it is is, and it is real fun, by definition.
The question is does fun prevent or promote suffering, and i think the answer to that is clearly that of the middle way.
I, for one, feel strongly that as Buddhists we should protect the spirit of the various doctrines from those of the prohibitionists, so common and celebrated in other religions.
You cannot get far in dharma if you are a drunkard, stoner, etcetera
But let us not speak like Popes about the free choices of others and call that "Buddhism"
namaste
You missed out my most salient point, which I made - twice.
Just be Mindful.
The reason I consider it not fun is because it is self-injurious. I would not call vandalism "fun", even if it gave a moment of manic happiness. Subjectively, anything could be considered fun... such as murder, rape, spite, hate, pride etc etc.
Perhaps I spoke unwisely when I said drinking is not fun, but it certainly isn't harmless fun. I don't preach morality unless being asked for help, and in this case... go drink. Don't drink. Whatever! Just be aware of what is actually occurring.
I think that when people take a hard line on intoxicants, its because they are self-harming. I doubt you'll find many Buddhists with well established equanimity attempting to "be a Pope" and force moral absolutism.
With warmth,
Matt
To refrain from intoxicants which cloud the mind and lead one away from Mindfulness.
There is no 'middle ground' or Middle Way here.
You either do it or you don't.
if you do - accept the fact that you are going against the fifth precept.
And live with the consequences.
This was what my point was about. For example, I went out Friday night, had a few drinks with some friends I hadn't seen for a while. It was all good, all fun, all Sukkha.
There were no negative consequences to it.
namaste
lie
steal
sexual misconduct
harm others...
If you have two drinks and you do not lose mindfulness in my mind that is ok...
Anyhow that is the understanding that I have with my teacher. You can interpret the dharma however you wish!
Oh I have a story...
I forget exactly how it goes but there was a monk who for some reason he had a choice between having sex with a married woman, becoming intoxicated, or killing someone. So he choose to become intoxicated. Only problem is that he ended up doing all three that night!
So certain and solid. Shrug... you see what you strive to see.
With warmth,
Matt
Matt, Your arrogance in thinking that you know more about my experiences than me lets down your normally well considered thoughts.
In my view of how intoxicants cloud the mind, there were consequences of the drinking. Maybe you shoulder that consequence without consideration? I don't mean "consequences" like "punishments" but "unfavorable conditions." For instance, drinking impacts the endocrine system potently. Drinking disturbs the view. Drinking lowers the ability to discern. Drinking costs money. Usually most of these, anyway. Really, though I don't care what you do! I was only hoping to help with clarity, not give moral direction.
I thought our whole last exchange was riddled with your describing my thoughts in a different way... strange to see you type "well considered thoughts" as a depiction of my words. I figured you considered me "not reading" and "not thinking it through" and "cloudy" etc.
With warmth,
Matt
IT's not a question of knowing more about your experiences...
It's a question of knowing the cause of your experiences.
Look, you can argue green is blue until the sacred cows come home.
The Buddha's instruction is quite unambiguous.
Refrain.
Not 'partake lightly', or 'occasionally', or 'just for fun'.
Abstain.
if you want to carry on not abstaining, that's your choice.
Nobody's going to criticise you or judge you for that. if you want to have an occasional tipple, that's up to you.
But you cannot argue the fact that it has an effect.
How you feel that effect, and to what intensity, varies from person to person.
My partner can down a bottle of Jack Daniels and I swear to you, nobody would ever know. But I do.....
My ex mother-in-Law could get tiddly on half a glass of apple shandy....
But it does have an effect.
That's all we're saying.
Ill stop discussing this point in public now, if you want to talk in PM, that's cool with me:)
namaste
What the ordinary people call suffering (e.g. sobriety), the Enlightened Ones call happiness.
This is a typical example of someone bending the truth to fit their views instead of bending their views to fit the truth. You want so much for the Buddha to say "Go ahead, toke up man! It's all good!" and so you cannot see the Dhamma.
I think I have made the case clear in a number of posts in a number of ways why we should not intoxicate our minds (even to a small degree). So I will leave it here and, as the Buddha said, "the world can argue with me, but I won't argue with the world".
Who is it that had that experience?
If you say "I" did then I ask, What are you?
We can have wonderful experiences when we meditate and when we take drugs but those things cannot help us understand our true self.
What is your purpose here? What are you? How can you help all other beings?
If we become attached to the wonderful feelings that can be produced through various measures than we stay stuck in our wonderful situation. The Buddha was a prince, he had a great situation, but he was dissatisfied with life when he realized that everyone was suffering; so he left his great situation. For 6 years he meditated under the bodhi tree only asking himself, "What is suffering? What am I? What is life? What is death?" He only kept one answer, "Don't know." Then one morning he looked up at the morning star and BOOM got enlightenment. Then, he spent the next 45 years of his life teaching others, helping them with their suffering.
So I ask you again, What are you?
Outside the street lamp is shining.
Kwan Um talk does the trick sometimes. Sometimes not.
Ah, like beautiful poetry straight out of a sutta.
Back to the topic. A clear mind does not arise from a cloudy mind, it cannot. The more I practice the more, I see how even one glass of wine or one beer clouds my preceptions. Smoking out is gonna make you feel good while you are smoking out, that's all. It won't further your practice no matter how it is justified.
Yours in the Dharma,
Todd
Great post. I think this boils it down pretty well.
dude......the fifth precept!
It's there for a reason!
Drugs create powerfull attachments, bad karma plus they keep the truth away..
I rather meditate for half an hour sober, then three hours high..
Make no mistakes, I've been a stoner myself for many years...
If prince siddartha had that kind of mindset there would never be buddhism..he would stay a prince and have 'fun' cause his ego would tell him being a prince is fun.
This is not true.
It completely misses the fact that I have always stated that you cannot go far down the path if you are drunk or drugged....
My point is about, HEADONISTIC LAPSES, occasional letting go, say on your birthday. My point is that I see no dharmic reasons, of any kind (spiritual, moral, psychological, philosophical...) which such occasional headonistic lapses should be considered, by learned buddhists, as so unwholesome so long as they have no significantnegative karmic payload ie everyone had fun and nobody got hurt and people ended up closer after....
I understand ur point.....but it's in 99.99% of times NOT the case. Someone always get's hurt, even if it's only the hangover the next morning, f.e. leading to carelessness leading to not practising that day. Karma works in ways far further and deeper we can often grasp.
Once again I agree with you hypothetically, but in real life........no