Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Examples: Monday, today, last week, Mar 26, 3/26/04
Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.

Little White Lies

edited May 2010 in Buddhism Basics
It's funny, but since I've become a teacher I find I've lied more than I have my entire life put together. In Buddhism, is lying ever appropriate?

For example, grades will be due in a few weeks but there is still a week of school left after that. Students will still be doing work that last week. I won't actually announce to the class that it will be graded, but if anyone asks I'll lie and say yes. Otherwise they won't do the work, they won't learn, and it's possible that they will disrupt the rest of the class. Is that acceptable? Are there any alternatives? Explaining to a 12 year old that they should do the work "so that they can learn and be prepared for next year" doesn't tend to work, especially in the last weeks of school!

Comments

  • GuyCGuyC Veteran
    edited May 2010
    It will be graded. The attitudes they cultivate now will carry over into next year and therefore influence next year's grades. So are you really lying?
  • lightwithinlightwithin Veteran
    edited May 2010
    I think there are times when lying is needed. I don't think the precepts or the general rule: "Don't lie", are to be held as absolute and infallible in every single situation without exception. There will always be times when we are forced to lie, and we shouldn't condemn ourselves for it. As long as you abstain from lying in general and in less trying situations, then it should be OK.
  • edited May 2010
    I'll give u an example a GOOD white lie I made recently.

    At work a guy is scrubbing things clean with BLEACH, undiluted pouring it all over his hands and soaking them in it...

    So I told him (in another language) "bro don't do that, put some gloves on"

    but he didn't believe me right away and told me "yeah whatever its okay"

    so I told him "you know bro, I had an uncle that worked with bleach a lot in his life, he didn't wear gloves and now his hands are F***ed up."

    (that was a blatant lie) But the guy ended up putting gloves on and rinsing his hands real good.. now this kid may never NOT use gloves again working with chemicals..

    I think this lie was a huge success

    (edit: I hope my science was actually right? u should wear gloves right!?)
  • aMattaMatt Veteran
    edited May 2010
    Lying is wrong speech, and leads to more suffering. If you can find a way to approach it honestly, it would be better. Lying isn't really wrong, and I can see why you do it in that context, but knowing the nature of deception is also important.

    With warmth,

    Matt
  • edited May 2010
    Don't attach to the precepts. If you need to lie to save someone then do it. If you need to kill to save someone then do it. If you need to have sex with someone to save them, then that is ok too. If you need to... you get my point. The precepts are there as a way to keep us in line, a friendly reminder, but they are not commandments. Karma is generated through attached action, thinking, and speech. If you are unattached when you lie, with the purpose to save someone, then do it; this will not generate "negative" karma. Then, let it go. Don't go back to it by thinking about it and dwelling on it, "Oh, is this right? Have I sinned?" This is not why the buddha gave those precepts. They are only guides to help us stay on the right track, but sometimes you need to take a side road when someone is in need.
  • lightwithinlightwithin Veteran
    edited May 2010
    dontknow wrote: »
    Don't attach to the precepts. If you need to lie to save someone then do it. If you need to kill to save someone then do it. If you need to have sex with someone to save them, then that is ok too. If you need to... you get my point. The precepts are there as a way to keep us in line, a friendly reminder, but they are not commandments. Karma is generated through attached action, thinking, and speech. If you are unattached when you lie, with the purpose to save someone, then do it; this will not generate "negative" karma. Then, let it go. Don't go back to it by thinking about it and dwelling on it, "Oh, is this right? Have I sinned?" This is not why the buddha gave those precepts. They are only guides to help us stay on the right track, but sometimes you need to take a side road when someone is in need.

    I agree with this completely. Good post.
  • BarraBarra soto zennie wandering in a cloud in beautiful, bucolic Victoria BC, on the wacky left coast of Canada Veteran
    edited May 2010
    TheFound wrote: »
    I'll give u an example a GOOD white lie I made recently.

    At work a guy is scrubbing things clean with BLEACH, undiluted pouring it all over his hands and soaking them in it...

    So I told him (in another language) "bro don't do that, put some gloves on"

    but he didn't believe me right away and told me "yeah whatever its okay"

    so I told him "you know bro, I had an uncle that worked with bleach a lot in his life, he didn't wear gloves and now his hands are F***ed up."

    (that was a blatant lie) But the guy ended up putting gloves on and rinsing his hands real good.. now this kid may never NOT use gloves again working with chemicals..

    I think this lie was a huge success

    (edit: I hope my science was actually right? u should wear gloves right!?)

    Hey, Found - I like your story, and you were able to get the guy to work more safely. Good job!
    My concern [yes, I sound like a mother, but also like a workplace health and safety rep, which I was for many years] is that I want you to understand what the health and safety rules are in your workplace. It is your employer's responsibility to train you and all your co-workers about safe practices and hazardous materials. Ask to see the "WHMIS" safety sheets (means workplace hazardous materials information system" http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ewh-semt/occup-travail/whmis-simdut/index-eng.php for your work site. Or read the label on the bleach container - avoid contact with skin. If it has a symbol with a skeleton hand, that is also a clue (it is a symbol that means - "this will dissolve your skin if you don't wear gloves!!")
  • edited May 2010
    aMatt wrote: »
    Lying is wrong speech, and leads to more suffering. If you can find a way to approach it honestly, it would be better. Lying isn't really wrong, and I can see why you do it in that context, but knowing the nature of deception is also important.

    With warmth,

    Matt


    I see what you're saying, Matt. I suppose I should look at the nature of the deception and see whether it's skillful or unskillful. I guess it's mostly for the benefit of the kids (they learn)... except for the fact that I'm reinforcing that just because they do something means they deserve something (a grade). Really, the BEST solution would be for me to only do lessons that the kids would WANT to do whether or not it's being graded... and if I could find those lessons I would be the richest teacher in the world! I have a few lessons for the last days that I think the kids will love (paper airplane experiment, building the tallest tower with pretzel sticks and marshmallows), but before that we have to review for the big cumulative district test, and there's not much we can do besides go through definitions and stuff. Not much fun. So those assignments will have to be "graded."

    don'tknow and lightwithin, thanks for your clear posts! It's kind of reassuring to re-remember that there is no Sin with a capital S in Buddhism! I was only Catholic for the first decade or so of my life, but even that leaves a mark! I'm a person who likes her grey area, and that seems to fit Buddhism :)

    GuyC- that's an interesting perspective! Thank you!
  • edited May 2010
    Zachaa wrote: »
    It's funny, but since I've become a teacher I find I've lied more than I have my entire life put together. In Buddhism, is lying ever appropriate?

    Explaining to a 12 year old that they should do the work "so that they can learn and be prepared for next year" doesn't tend to work, especially in the last weeks of school!
    I think the lying is referring to cheating asset, money, causing harm to others. The most severe lying is about one's attainment in Buddhism if he is not. For student, learning should begin when they starting schooling through the care and love of teachers constantly guiding them.
  • GuyCGuyC Veteran
    edited May 2010
    Zachaa wrote: »
    Really, the BEST solution would be for me to only do lessons that the kids would WANT to do whether or not it's being graded... and if I could find those lessons I would be the richest teacher in the world!

    Lessons in Guitar Hero maybe?
    Zachaa wrote: »
    GuyC- that's an interesting perspective! Thank you!

    I should clarify though that I am not saying you should lie to them. What I meant was, its not really lying if you explain (if necessary, i.e. if pushed for an explanation) why its important for them to go on with their work as if it were being graded immediately. Looking at my last post I don't think I made this very clear.

    But, of course, only explain if you have to. Hopefully it will be a non-issue for you as many of the things in life that we get so worried about turn out to be.

    P.S. - I checked and edited my spelling and grammar, knowing you are a teacher, hoping you'll give me a good grade! :D
  • aMattaMatt Veteran
    edited May 2010
    I think you deserve that C
  • NamelessRiverNamelessRiver Veteran
    edited May 2010
    I think the whole "you HAVE to do homework or else..." approach doesn't work very well. :-\

    In my experience, I only begun to study steadily when I started identifying the process of learning with self-esteem, or maybe as a tool to help me become who I wanted to be. I was insecure at first ("I did well today, but I am not sure if I can do it tomorrow", "My mind just wandered off a bit and I missed what the teacher was saying. This is really bad.") but it started to become a habit. Before that, the whole "you have to study" was just an ordeal that made me anxious.

    I actually wanted to be more studious but the whole school-parent pressure mixed with my insecurity and the way I viewed the act of studying (as something tiresome, easy for some, hard for others) just made me not do it.

    I am not saying I am some type of genius (in case you people are checking my grammar >;-{), what I am trying to convey is just that you fight desire (to play video-games instead of doing homework, for example) with desire (to become [...]). Not with grade threats.

    I am not advocating a "golden-star" policy, either. I think ideally students should be viewing study as a part of their life and feeling good about doing it, without the craving for a good grade as prize or the fear of a bad grade as punishment, and the best way to do that is to help them review their outlook on the whole process individually and not to treat them as cattle. (Do I sound crazy? :lol:)
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited May 2010
    Just show movies the last two weeks. Seriously you DON'T have to lie. Deal with discipline and if they don't do the work just ignore it. But DO tell them that higher paying jobs require lifetime learning and not just 'foot in the door' grades. Theres no reason someone who is going to mow lawns for a living or whatever needs to work the last 2 weeks of school on that BS I realized later in life. Just make sure they don't act up and if they do detention I guess. Or time after school if its elementary. If they don't show up suspend them.

    School is for their benefit and they should see that its a privelidge (which maybe if I had paid attention all those 2 weeks I could spell hehe) and not some bullshit that they are forced to do.
  • edited May 2010
    Nameless River, I totally agree that teaching them to do the work "for your grades" is the wrong way to go about it. It should have more to do with personal pride, as you said. Most kids don't even care about their grades anymore anyway. Again, it comes down to having lessons that genuinely interest students. If that's all I had to do, I could probably do it (with another year or so of practice). However, we are also required to teach certain things at certain times, and the more restrictions are put on us, the harder it is to do this! So no, you do not sound crazy at all! It's what I truly believe but in practice, I've found, it's really really really difficult to pull off :(

    Jeffrey, I also agree with you in that what I'm doing IS sort of busywork... but in the end I think it's better than movies, which I tried the last two years. What happens with the movie thing is that ALL the teachers show movies, so that the kids have to be quiet all day and they get really, really antsy. Discipline doesn't work so well at the end of the year, either. It's better to have lessons that keep them moving and expending all that pre-summer energy they have! So yes, it is bullshit, but it serves a purpose.

    The solution to this one is to make it so grades are due AFTER the students leave... then there would be no bullshit grades, would there? Colleges all have finals the very last week before break. Why the heck can't public secondary schools do that too!?? *shakes head*
  • GuyCGuyC Veteran
    edited May 2010
    Zachaa wrote: »
    The solution to this one is to make it so grades are due AFTER the students leave... then there would be no bullshit grades, would there? Colleges all have finals the very last week before break. Why the heck can't public secondary schools do that too!?? *shakes head*

    Your governator is a robot killing machine, I don't think it is capable of understanding human emotions.
  • edited May 2010
    Hi Zachaa,

    What is stop you grading the work anyway? That way the students get valuable feedback, they will also work harder and you're not lying! :)
  • TheswingisyellowTheswingisyellow Trying to be open to existence Samsara Veteran
    edited May 2010
    A man runs by you, goes up an alley and makes a left and dissapears. As he is running he says "that guy is trying to kill me". A few seconds later a man with a gun in his hand (not a cop) asks you which way the guy ran, left or right up the alley? You are sure this man is intent on doing great bodily harm to the other man, what do you say?
    Yours in the Dharma,
    Todd
  • AriettaDolenteAriettaDolente Veteran
    edited May 2010
    When I don't want to lie, but the truth is inconvenient, I respond with a different truth: "I'd prefer not to say."
    Student: "Will this be graded?"

    Teacher: "I'd prefer not to say."

    Student: "Why not? It WILL be graded, won't it!"

    Teacher: "Sorry. I'm not going to tell you."

    Student: "But that's not fair! You HAVE to tell me!"

    Teacher: "Sorry."

    Student: "Geeze. Okay, give me that assignment."

    Teacher: "Sure. Here you go."
    We always have a right to remain silent and refuse to answer. I would rather leave people in the dark than deliberately mislead them. Try it sometime. You might be surprised by the reaction.
Sign In or Register to comment.